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Over the years, there have been many changes in the formulation of fuels for our cars. Does anyone KNOW if my '65 283 2bbl. still requires a lead substitute to save the valves? Thanx...
Still Need Lead Substitute?
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I think its more the valve seats, not the valves... I think the substitute is still "needed"... But I don't think lead substitute is needed all the time...
Problems with the non-hardened valve seats can take thousands of miles to occur... Not like it happens overnight... I have seen some heads where the valves had sunk into the seat alot (1/8" to 1/4"?)...
I had a 1965 Impala 327, never rebuilt engine/never had heads off, and NEVER used lead substitute... It ran fine as a "daily" driver up until 1997 when it was predominantly parked... I say "daily" because it was my grandmother's. and while she drove almost everyday, some days were only like 2 miles... It still ran okay when I sold it (a convertible too, DOH!) in 2002/2003 or so...
I have also had several other older engines (327 and 396s) that when pulled apart had no valve problems and no hardened seats (but I don't know what kind of mileage or addatives the Previous owners added...).
Problems with the non-hardened valve seats can take thousands of miles to occur... Not like it happens overnight... I have seen some heads where the valves had sunk into the seat alot (1/8" to 1/4"?)...
I had a 1965 Impala 327, never rebuilt engine/never had heads off, and NEVER used lead substitute... It ran fine as a "daily" driver up until 1997 when it was predominantly parked... I say "daily" because it was my grandmother's. and while she drove almost everyday, some days were only like 2 miles... It still ran okay when I sold it (a convertible too, DOH!) in 2002/2003 or so...
I have also had several other older engines (327 and 396s) that when pulled apart had no valve problems and no hardened seats (but I don't know what kind of mileage or addatives the Previous owners added...).
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Thanx for that input, Tony. I haven't owned a "leaded" car since 1980 (a '74 Coupe de Ville) and I'm not up to speed on the current characteristics of today's fuels. Guess I was dreaming that I could finally go without the additive...Is one additive any better than the rest?
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My question is not about selling leaded fuel but rather, a choice among the various lead substitutes offered on the retail market today. There are those like me among us who have engines that have untouched heads. There are suitable additives approved by regulatory agencies made by STP and RedLine among others and I am simply seeking a recommendation from those who have the experience with using these lead substitutes. When the need arises, I shall indeed replace the original valve seats with hardened ones. Until then, I would appreciate any feedback on brands of "lead substitute" additive. Are they all the same?al carson said:
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alan, I can't help with any recomendations of lead subtitutes but just want to say I personally don't believe we really need to worry to much about using the stuff.
Even though we're told there may be some long term damage to the valve seats, I think it will be a long time down the road for those of us that don't put all that many miles on our Chevelles.
I intend to just drive them until they need a valve job and then do it, no real big deal to me.
Just my personal opinion based on driving older cars a lot with no apparent need to do anything.
Even though we're told there may be some long term damage to the valve seats, I think it will be a long time down the road for those of us that don't put all that many miles on our Chevelles.
I intend to just drive them until they need a valve job and then do it, no real big deal to me.
Just my personal opinion based on driving older cars a lot with no apparent need to do anything.
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I just use the stuff from WalMart every 3rd fill up or so. Name is some letters and numbers C2 or something of the sort...
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Guy that builds engines for a living told me not to use lead additives because they leave a residue that collects on the interior cylinder surfaces. Just passing along his observation.
Here's a link to the stuff I use (contains tetraethyl lead so dont drink it):
http://www.kemcooil.com/products.php?cId=4
http://www.kemcooil.com/products.php?cId=4
There have been changes in the formulation of gas, but they are for the worse, not better. Older engines needed the lead for the soft valve seats, but they also benefit greatly having the lead in the bearings. Any old engine that ran its first few years on high content leaded gas stores much of that lead in the bearings for many years afterward.
A few years ago, I pulled the 350 /300 out of my Son's 69 El Camino for a new rear main seal. This engine ran its early years on leaded gas, and then once the lead was gone, it lived completely on unleaded for many years.
On opening the rear main bearing, we found a lot of nice slippery grey lead material filling every crevice. You could wipe piles of soft lead off on your finger. We didn't remove that lead, we simply replaced the seal, and put it back together with the stored lead in there to protect the bearings.
An older engine that hasn't been torn apart to rebuild stored that lead almost forever. Leave it in there. It is very good for it.
Lead substitutes do not leave a long term lubricating residue in the engine like lead does. Instead of using substitutes, go for an occasional fill of racing gas with real tetraethyl lead.
A few years ago, I pulled the 350 /300 out of my Son's 69 El Camino for a new rear main seal. This engine ran its early years on leaded gas, and then once the lead was gone, it lived completely on unleaded for many years.
On opening the rear main bearing, we found a lot of nice slippery grey lead material filling every crevice. You could wipe piles of soft lead off on your finger. We didn't remove that lead, we simply replaced the seal, and put it back together with the stored lead in there to protect the bearings.
An older engine that hasn't been torn apart to rebuild stored that lead almost forever. Leave it in there. It is very good for it.
Lead substitutes do not leave a long term lubricating residue in the engine like lead does. Instead of using substitutes, go for an occasional fill of racing gas with real tetraethyl lead.
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To resolve this problem/issue, I now build all of my engines with hard exhaust seats and stainless valves. So far, I've not seen any problems.
Recently, there seems to be some debate about whether installing hard ex seats really provides a benefit. It seems possible that maybe just switching to stainless valves is sufficient. But for now, all of my engines (which I build myself) have hard ex seats and stainless valves and depending on which engine it is, I use unleaded 91 or 93 octane.
Recently, there seems to be some debate about whether installing hard ex seats really provides a benefit. It seems possible that maybe just switching to stainless valves is sufficient. But for now, all of my engines (which I build myself) have hard ex seats and stainless valves and depending on which engine it is, I use unleaded 91 or 93 octane.
I had no problems with mine until I re-did the heads. Didn't look too bad when I pulled the heads and never used an additive.
Once the valves and seats were ground/cleaned they started sticking together until the exhaust valves were almost sucked into the heads.
Once the valves and seats were ground/cleaned they started sticking together until the exhaust valves were almost sucked into the heads.
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I used to think that if the engine wasn't stressed, that the lack of lead on unhardened valve seats wouldn't really matter. I was wrong. My '63 283 suffered some SERIOUSLY sunken valves, this after a total rebuild.
And it's the seats that get pounded out, not the valves.
And it's the seats that get pounded out, not the valves.
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Ditto. If the car has any miles on it now, the seats either (1) have hardened over time to help stave off non-lead damaage or (2) need replacement due to age/mileage anyway and exhaust seats can be replaced.Dean said:
Tell you one thing with no lead gas, 'back in the days' (67-69) my big block wouldn't run a week before plugs needed to be cleaned/changed due to lead deposits and misfiring at anything over 3500/4000. I rebuilt one in 1987 and had hardened seats installed and drove it everywhere for close to 2 full years before I realized I'd never changed plugs and the engine never misfired once at any rpm. Firm believer in unleaded fuel.
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Alan,
I have 22 bottles of Napa Lead substitute sitting in my garage that I would let go of real cheap. If your interested and are going to the Turlock swap let me now and I will throw the case in my trunk. I just don't want to ship it anywhere.
I have 22 bottles of Napa Lead substitute sitting in my garage that I would let go of real cheap. If your interested and are going to the Turlock swap let me now and I will throw the case in my trunk. I just don't want to ship it anywhere.
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Thanks for all the replies... I printed out the data for the Kemco 130 and will acquire some after New Years. Thanks again for all the help and MERRY CHRISTMAS, HAPPY HOLIDAYS!!!
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