[LXS]

I've posted a few times asking questions about my starter problems. Anyway, this is a new one. A few weeks ago when I went to the track, I had advanced my total timing to 36* which made it harder for me to turn the car on. It got to the point where it started grinding and eventually went out on me, at work, during my lunch break, in the AM/PM parking lot. My dad did me the favor of towing it for me while I walked back to work. Anyway, what I've resorted to now is having to retard my timing before turning the car on, then advancing it again to drive around. I've talked to Enrique (slowpoke70) and he's told me that he's had his initial timing all the way up to 20* and didn't have any problems turning his car on. Is this just a single and weird incident that I'm having to go thru, or has anyone else had this same problem? I know I do need a new flexplate, along with a mini starter, but other then that, what do you guys think is wrong? Is there a cheap way of getting this fixed? Or am I gonna have to fork up big $$$ to get this fixed the right way, or am I going to be stuck retarding the timing for start up, then having to go back under the hood to advance it again?



Also, I used to have my inital timing at 14* (I have no idea what total was) and was able to drive around fine like that. The only reason I insist on advanceing it is because the car drives better, has more power, and actually gives me better gas mileage!

 

[Blade]

I saw a guy that put a simple toggle switch in line with the ignition coil. Turn the switch off, then while its cranking turn the switch on and the engine should jump to life. Might be worth playing with, and I cant think of anything it would hurt. Anyone?

I believe the real solution though is to fix the distributor to allow for more total advance. You should just about be able to acheive any realistic total you want regardless of the initial timing. This way the car cranks easily and will have the power you seek.

Kieth

 

[LXS]

I tried hooking up a toggle switch roughly around this same time last year. Unforunatly I was unsuccessful, most likely because I didn't hook it right :clonk: Anyway, I hooked up the toggle switch, but when I'd flick the switch, nothing would happen. A friend of mine had his '61 Chevy truck set up with a toggle switch. Basically, he would just put the key in, turn the key to get power, then flip the switch to turn it on. That's the way I tried to hook it up, but I couldn't get it work right. Like I said, I most likely hooked it up wrong. Enrique (Slowpoke) mentioned the same thing you did, about hooking up a toggle switch to flip while the motor would be cranking. I thought about it, but I'm not sure exactly how to hook it up this way.

 

[RatONaStick]

describe your starting sytem components in more detail.

what kind of starter? standard? high torque? cheap parts store replacement?

what size battery cable?

what are the cold cranking amps on the battery?

did you shim the starter?


im using a stock high torque chevy starter, 00 gauge welding cable for the batt cables, and a 1000cca battery. i also have an extra 00 gauge ground cable running from the bellhousing to the frame.

this setup is starting an 11:1+ 427. it doesnt matter where the initial timing is, i can set the initial at 20 degrees and it starts easily hot or cold. i dont even need the 1000cca battery, i could most likely get away with 750cca.

also, if you're starter is grinding then the flexplate will probably need replaced, and then you need to shim the starter. ive been through this, at one time this engine would break cast iron nose starters and absolutely destroy an aluminum nose starter. having the starter shimmed properly is important and should be checked thoroughly.

honestly, if your starting system is sub par then no matter what you do you will always have problems. it wont matter if you have a mini starter, a toggle switch or whatever.

if my 427 will start using this setup than yours will too.

 

[Adam Loose]

What about hooking up an MSD timing retard switch?
http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stor...goryId=14573&parentCategoryId=11549&langId=-1

 

[RatONaStick]

What about hooking up an MSD timing retard switch?
http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CategoryDisplay?catalogId=10002&storeId=10001&categoryId=14573&parentCategoryId=11549&langId=-1

unless hes running lots of compression, like 12.5:1+, there's no need for a timing retard switch, mini starter or a toggle switch to fire the ignition.

he needs to go through the starting system and make sure everything is up to snuff. all he needs is a good stock type starter thats been shimmed properly, adequately sized battery cables and a battery with enough cold cranking amps.

for the 130 bucks they want for that timing retard he could have his car starting like a champ, with money left over.

 

[Hi-po SS 454]

Alex, I just went thru a starter problem. was making a nasty grinding noise sometimes, other times it would catch just right and start immediately. The only problem with the starter was the bendix drive, 4 yrs old. Replaced that part and starter is fine again. Stock type starter. So it could be just that and not your flywheel.

 

[Adam Loose]

What's with the bat

 

[Hi-po SS 454]

What's with the bat

Just there to see if you would ask...

 

[LXS]

Sorry for leaving you guys on the hang. I hadn't had any time to log on, so here I am!

Ok, now to start answering Q's!


Rat on a Stick:

"describe your starting sytem components in more detail.
what kind of starter? standard? high torque? cheap parts store replacement?"


Starter is a Pep Boy's starter with a "lifetime" (which they're now trying to say is only a 3 year warrenty, but I've been exchanging it for the past 5 years!), warrenty.




"what size battery cable?"

I have no idea what size the battery cables are. I just went to Pep Boys and grabbed them from the rack.


"what are the cold cranking amps on the battery?"


Battery is an Optima Red Top battery, I just don't remember what the cca are.



"did you shim the starter?"


Yes! I've done just about EVERY combination of shimming there is. I've tried no shims, just the smallest size shim, the middle shim, the thickest shim, the smallest and the middle sized shim, the smallest and the biggest size shim, the middle and the biggest size shim, I've tried straight shims, angled shims, shims that are "measured" in decimals, shims that are "measured" in milimeters, and just recently (the past couple months to a year), I've been angle shimming the starter with the shim on the outside bolt to help get the gear closer to the flexplate. I've also tried just about all the different sized shims while angle shimming the starter! The only thing I haven't done is angle shimming the starter using the bolt closest to the block. The only reason I haven't done that is because I believe that the farther the starter gear is from the flexplate teeth, the quicker it'll chip the teeth on the flexplate and eventually burn out the starter. I know that having it too close to the flexplate can cause similar results, but being that my flexplate needs to be replaced, I felt that getting the starter teeth closer to the flexplate teeth was the better thing to do.




I believe someone mention/asked why I need to replace the flexplate. The reason I need to replace it is because the teeth are BADLY chewed up. I'm not kidding, the teeth are almost HALF the size they're suppose to be! Yeah, I know I know, I shouldn't have let it get that bad. I just haven't had the time or money to save up to fix it before it got worse. I'm hoping that I'll be able to get a new flexplate this week and at least slap it on this coming Thurs., and hopefully have the car back up and running by Friday. I'll probably just get another Pep Boy's starter, I know, but it's free


I got a check in the mail from my credit union for $1K. I didn't want to cash it because I don't need to get into more debt. Unfortunatly, I was in a minor fender bender this past Saturday, and I rear ended a little Toyota pick up truck. The man wants $450 which he says will cover the damage. The damage wasn't too bad to his truck compared to my poor 'Velle I ended up tweaking his rear bumper and scratched some paint off his tail gate. I know $450 sounds like a lot, but I'm thinking, that $450 is pretty much pocket change compared to how much more I'll be paying in the long run with my insurance. So anyway, getting back to that check I got. I'm gonna have to cash it now so I can pay the guy off, and I was thinking, well, if I'm gonna have the money, then maybe I'll try to get a mini starter. The only thing is, I don't want to fork the money out for the starter, just to have the same problems I'm having now.


So what else do you guys think my problem is? I know Rich mentioned about the Bendix thingamajig. The only thing about that is, the starter I have on the car right now is the 3rd start in just about 3 weeks, so I know it can't be that. What else???

 

[RB69SS396Conv]

Here's a post I made a long time ago, that I just now discovered somebody had copied and asked me about in Private Messages about a year ago, and I didn't even know I had until this week... sorry, you probably know who you are, I apologize for being an idiot and not realizing I even had a message.... see if this sounds like your situation. If so, try the 4347 starter I metioned. This particular guy had just bought the motor I was talking about, and it acted like this, and he wanted to know what to do. If yours does this, and gets WAY worse FAST when you add shims, then this is for you too.

Yeah, pretty familiar....

Your block has The Problem.

It is a condition wherein the starter bolts were drilled too far from the crank, by the factory. Apparently one of the 3 or 4 (I'm guessing, just based on the probabilities I've been fighting since the mid 70s) machines that were used at the block factory to gang-drill the holes, drifted somewhat; and starting sometime around 71, that one machine drilled every block out of tolerance that passed through it. GM must have realized there was a problem sometime in about 74 or 75, because starter entries for car combos that don't exist, like Checker cabs with 396 and Powerglide, begin to appear. The universal aftermarket number for this starter is 4347 (like the one for the normal starter is 3510). It uses 2 different length bolts, and locates the starter about 1/8" or a little more, closer to the crank. Evidently they discovered what it was in about 79 or 80, because The Problem went away about that time.

You can tell a motor that has It from 500 yards away: that horrible fingernails on the chalkboard grinding noise, very slow cranking; short starter life and multiple starter swaps later, the owner is ready to sell an otherwise perfectly good motor, for pennies on the dollar, just to get it out of his/her sight.

You put your new starter on, it's just about close enough to the crank to work halfway right, but as soon as it has enough use on it to push the starter outwards away from the crank a little bit, it starts right back up again.

So I'm guessing you got this motor from somebody, probably a real good deal, nothing apparently wrong with it or anything, but they definitely had run it, and just wanted to get rid of it for no particular good reason (or a reason that didn't seem good, anyway); and you paid what seemed like a too-good-to-be-true price for it. Am I right? It's been happening with those motors for 30 years now that I know of.

I have one car that had it so bad that it wouldn't start until I hooked 2 batteries up to it right after I bought the car for a totally impossible low price (you'd shoot me if I told you what kind of car and what I paid), and then it broke the starter nosepiece right off the block..... the starter fell DOWN to the GROUND. I figured out right away that there was something wrong with that one.

 

[LXS]

You can tell a motor that has It from 500 yards away: that horrible fingernails on the chalkboard grinding noise, very slow cranking; short starter life and multiple starter swaps later...

Well that sounds like what I'm having to go thru. The only thing I can't really agree with is the slow cranking. Most of the starters I've gone thru have cranked normaly. I don't recall ever having one that cranks slowly from the begining. I have had starters that over time started to crank over slowly, but I guess you can say that that was intermittent(sp?). Some times it'd crank slow, then other times it'd crank just fine. The one weird thing I have noticed is that all the starters I've had have all sounded different. I've had loud sounding starters, quiet sounding starters, and some that kinda have a "new car" sound to them.

I'd like to give that starter you mentioned a shot, I just don't know if the warrently could carry over to that starter or not. Then again, I wouldn't have to fork out the money for that starter if it doesn't solve my problem. Well, I guess I can always give Pep Boys a call to see what they say about the warrenty.

 

[Hi-po SS 454]

good luck Alex sounds like a rotten starter problem of some type. Very possible you have that misdrilled starter bolt hole thing in the block..But if you don't get that flex plate replaced I can't see you getting any closer to solving your problem.

 

[LXS]

Well I bought a new flexplate yesterday from Sod at Hye Tech Performance. I'm gonna get ready and try my best to get the car started as is so that I can drive it to the house I'm gonna do the work at. I'm hoping it'll give me one more start, cause I'd really hate to have to ask my dad for one of his AAA tows, because I'm already out of tows.

I'm hoping that 4347 starter is the cure for my problem. If it isn't, I have no idea what to do next Sod told me to invest in the "Pit Bull" starter which has different mounting holes which allows me to move the starter closer or further away from the crank. It sounds like a good idea to me, but I'd hate to invest the money and still have the same problem.

 

[LXS]

Well I called Pep Boys, Kragen, and Auto Zone. Neither of them carry that 4347 starter. The only good feedback I got was from Auto Zone. The manager cross referenced the 4347 part number and the computer brought up a different part number, which is DLG8430MS. He said that this starter is for high compression motors and is rated at 2.9hp, whereas the 3510 starter is only rated at about 1.2hp. He said that they do carry the DLG8430MS part, and it goes for 89.99 with exchange and has a lifetime warrenty. What do you guys think? Would it be worth it for me to buy this starter, or am I better off getting a mini starter elsewhere, or that Pit Bull starter?

 

[GCole]

I had a nightmare keeping starters going. A problem is that most of the torque is on the outer bolt of a staggerd pattern starter(draw out the lines of force, it becomes obvious). This can cause the bolt to bend(a very common problem), let the gear slip, starter starts grinding and either bust the nose or chew up the flexplate. Finally bought this starter....Powermaster XS Torque Starters - Chevy XS Torque Starter, 168-Tooth Flywheel, Staggered Mount Jegs #713-9526.

This starter has all 3 bolt holes available. Since bolting this down I've had no probs even after a kickback. Wish I had done this months earlier...saved a lot of hassle.

 

[LXS]

Well I started taking things apart today, but I started pretty late, then it got cold, FAST! lol I wasn't in too good of a mood today, and didn't make much effort of trying to take things apart, mainly because I found out just before I started working on the car that it's suppose to rain tomorrow.

Anyway, I'm on to a "new" dilemma. Do I A.) Buy a high torque mini starter from an performance shop? B.) Buy that "high performance" starter that the guy from Auto Zone told me about? C.) Buy that (I'm pretty sure it's called Pit Bull) starter that has adjustable bolt holes? or D.) Try to find that 4347 starter which the parts stores don't carry?

I already have a new flexplate, and I ended up taking the 3510MS starter back to get a new one just so that the car can be started when I need it to.

 

[RatONaStick]

LXS

i believe ive found your problem, im betting the parts stores are selling you the wrong starter!!!

i bet you have a 153 tooth flexplate/flywheel on the car? the #3510 starter is a staggered bolt pattern starter and wont work with a 153 tooth flexplate!!!

the starter with the staggered bolt pattern is for 168 tooth flywheels! the starter with the straight bolt pattern is for 153 tooth flywheels.

tell them to look up a 1970 chevelle with the 307 V8 and automatic, the part number should be #3664 and will have a straight bolt pattern.

tell them they sold you the wrong starter, i dont care what the computers say they're wrong. they should swap the starters, and should give you some money back. the 3664 starter is about 4 bucks cheaper at advance auto parts.

hell they should even pay for the replacement flexplate since it was their screwup to begin with.

 

[LXS]

Thanks for the info Brandon, but my flexplate is a 168 tooth flexplate. It's not a parts store flexplate, I bought it from Hye Tech Performance, which is where I've bought majority of my parts from.

 

[RatONaStick]

the one you bought recently is 168, but what about the one on the car now? is it a 168?

if its a 153 tooth flexplate on the car now, then everything should work great with the new 168 tooth flexplate and staggered starter.

either way i would still mock the starter up with the trans removed/slid back. that way you have easy access to check for the proper clearance between the ring gear and starter.

check this out link out below, it shows how to check/shim the starter for the proper clearance.

http://macc.chevelles.net/starter.htm