Quick ratio power steering box for my 65?
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Do you have power steering or manual? You can have your power steering box rebuilt with quicker ratio inside. I dont think much can be done with a manual box without making it harder to turn when sitting still. At least that what I learned when I sent my steering box out to Power steering services many years ago. Im not sure if they are still around. But several folks here recommended them so I sent them mine. But I have manual steering.
3 assumptions:
- 65 and 67 cars have the same "challenges", specifically connecting a late model box to the steering column
- yours is a small block
- yours already has PS
If all true, it's pretty straightforward.
I put the steering box from a 95 9C1 cop Caprice in my 67 327 Wagon. Cost me about $75. I got a great deal on the box.
- this is a high effort, quick ratio box with almost same travel as the original box
- box bolts in with Chevelle bolts
- Chevelle pitman bolts on
- used rag joint from 80 ish k20 truck to mate late model box to 67 column
- new power steering pressure hose for 85 Monte Carlo
- metal part of PS return line is from a "boxy Caprice" - I just scrounged the junkyard until I found a line the right shape.
- I re-used my 67 PS pump. The trick is to get the fitting for the pressure line from the back of a late model pump. The fitting from the late model pump replaces the fitting on the back of your original pump. It's a direct bolt in and allows you to use a late model PS hose that correctly mates to the late model box with no adapters.
http://www.chevelles.com/techref/shea_1.html
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/lonestarclassics/steering.htm
Or - just have your box reuild to the specs you want.
- 65 and 67 cars have the same "challenges", specifically connecting a late model box to the steering column
- yours is a small block
- yours already has PS
If all true, it's pretty straightforward.
I put the steering box from a 95 9C1 cop Caprice in my 67 327 Wagon. Cost me about $75. I got a great deal on the box.
- this is a high effort, quick ratio box with almost same travel as the original box
- box bolts in with Chevelle bolts
- Chevelle pitman bolts on
- used rag joint from 80 ish k20 truck to mate late model box to 67 column
- new power steering pressure hose for 85 Monte Carlo
- metal part of PS return line is from a "boxy Caprice" - I just scrounged the junkyard until I found a line the right shape.
- I re-used my 67 PS pump. The trick is to get the fitting for the pressure line from the back of a late model pump. The fitting from the late model pump replaces the fitting on the back of your original pump. It's a direct bolt in and allows you to use a late model PS hose that correctly mates to the late model box with no adapters.
http://www.chevelles.com/techref/shea_1.html
http://www.angelfire.com/tx/lonestarclassics/steering.htm
Or - just have your box reuild to the specs you want.
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669 Posts
Okay, so you want to use a quick ratio box on your 1965 Chevelle, this can be accomplished pretty simply, but there are a few things that you have to keep in mind to make this swap go as smoothly as possible.
First, you’re car originally had a steering box with an output shaft travel of 43° 30mins so, ideally you want the new steering box to have about this same amount of output shaft travel. Secondly, in order to use any power steering box, you’ll need a pitman arm for a 1964-1967 GM-A body with power steering, a 64-67 manual steering pitman arm won’t work. This isn’t a big deal; you can get a new pitman arm at most auto parts stores. Third and finally most later model power steering boxes require around 1300psi of power steering pump pressure when the wheel turned to full lock. If the required pressure isn’t present (i.e. the pump doesn’t supply enough, you will feel a skip or lack of power steering when turning the wheel in a parking or maneuvering situation where you would typically be turning the wheel to a full lock.
I assume when you are referring a 12.7:1 quick ratio steering box when you are referring to quick ratio. This is the quickest ratio that the venerable Saginaw 700 series box came in.
Now, starting with the 1980 model year, GM switched over the metric O-ring style power steering hose fittings. This is not a big deal, one call to Lee Manufacturing ((818)768-0371 (talk to Tom Lee or his wife, they are very knowledgeable and can help with other steering questions as well) will land you the adapters for about $14.00 shipped to your door (You won't even see them once installed, very very trick). All this is provided you currently have power steering and want to reuse the original SAE flared seat hoses. If you are going to use a later model pump, then you can just use the metric O-ring style hoses and not have to deal with the adaptors.
Now, also starting about this time (1977 or so), GM switched to a 3/4" (O.D.) input shaft. Your 1964 has a 13/16" (O.D.) input shaft. This paper http://www.corvettefaq.com/acar/A-CarFastRatioGear10JN2002.doc, written by the very knowledgeable Jim Shea (retired from Saginaw Gear), nicely details the specifics of the older (’64-’67 Chevelle/El Camino) steering column and the modifications required to make the new quick ratio box work. Don’t worry, it’s nothing impossible.
Okay, now down to the dirty, since you are looking for a quick ratio (I’m presuming 12.7:1) steering box, you will need to find one with approximately the same amount of output shaft travel as your original box had (around 40° to 43°). To confuse matters even worse, GM did not use any type of external identifiers other than either a sticker or a grease stamping of a 2 character alpha code. As you can imagine, lots of times the sticker is missing, painted over or the grease stamping is worn and illegible or worn completely. Regardless if you are looking for this, it will either be on the aluminum top cover or front cover.
Here is a photo of what an alpha code looks like stamped on a steering box … this particular picture was taken by me of a 1992 Camaro Z/28 anniversary edition car –
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The cars you will be looking for are:
1985-1988 Chevrolet Monte Carlo SS – Stamped “YA” – 39° 15mins
1988-1996 Chevrolet Caprice/Impala SS – Stamped one of the following codes – “CP, CT, DU, FB, HL, KW, MX, TW, or WZ” – Most likely you’ll find these quick ratio (12.7:1) boxes on a police optioned car (RPO 9C1) or an Impala SS) The RPO codes F41, FE, FE1, or FE2 may also yield a 12.7:1 steering box.
1994-1995 Buick “full size” – Stamped one of the following codes – “FK, KL”
1992-1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee – Any steering box from these years Jeep Grand Cherokee will be a quick ratio (12.7:1) power steering box that will bolt right into you’re car.
While the steering box from a Camaro may sound lucrative, they do not have the output shaft travel as your car does originally; their output shaft travel is typically around 32° to 35°. This will increase you’re turning radius and make the car harder to maneuver in general. I would shy away from the use of a Camaro box for this reason and that they will not be any cheaper or easier to locate than one of the boxes I provided above. Out of the above mentioned boxes, I would choose either the Caprice (or full sized Buick) or Jeep Grand Cherokee boxes because their output shaft travel is around 40° to 43°. The Monte Carlo SS box is a good box, but they are fairly hard to find, at least in this neck of the woods and it still doesn’t have the output shaft travel that your original box had. If you were to find one you would probably have to pay a premium price because it came from a Monte SS (much like IROC or GTA boxes command). The Camaro boxes work very nicely on the later model El Camino’s (1978-1988) because of their redesign at this time).
Finally, you will notice that some of these power steering boxes may have four mounting bosses while others may only have three. This does not matter to you since your car only uses three. The four mounting bosses were used in vehicles such as Jeep CJ’s.
I was one, if not the first guy on Team Chevelle to do this swap and I couldn’t have done it without the advice of member JimL82 (Jim Shea). Jim worked at Saginaw Steering for around 30 years. He posted one day, in response to a question that certain late model caprice’s steering boxes would physically fit our older Chevelles. From there I ran with it as I knew just where a 1992 Caprice was sitting in the junkyard. I completed the swap for just under $50 and that includes the price of the paint to paint the box and the new fluid to fill the system with.
The Caprice when equipped with RPO 9C1 a/k/a police package from 1992 the end of production in 1996 came with a 12.7:1 Saginaw power steering box which is externally identical to the original Saginaw steering box in your 1965 Chevelle.
I am very happy with this swap. I was able to complete it for less than $50. I just did the homework ahead of time (which is outlined above) and did not run into any problems. I swapped a 1992 Caprice 9C1 ('cop car') box into my 1972. The physical swap took me less than 3hrs when I did it in 2002. The car is much more enjoyable to drive now. I have the suspension pretty tight with 1 ¼” front sway bar and 7/8” rear bar higher rate springs. The car doesn’t lean much through turns and the box makes it more enjoyable as there are less turns to achieve the same movement (thanks to the quick ratio).
Enjoy!
First, you’re car originally had a steering box with an output shaft travel of 43° 30mins so, ideally you want the new steering box to have about this same amount of output shaft travel. Secondly, in order to use any power steering box, you’ll need a pitman arm for a 1964-1967 GM-A body with power steering, a 64-67 manual steering pitman arm won’t work. This isn’t a big deal; you can get a new pitman arm at most auto parts stores. Third and finally most later model power steering boxes require around 1300psi of power steering pump pressure when the wheel turned to full lock. If the required pressure isn’t present (i.e. the pump doesn’t supply enough, you will feel a skip or lack of power steering when turning the wheel in a parking or maneuvering situation where you would typically be turning the wheel to a full lock.
I assume when you are referring a 12.7:1 quick ratio steering box when you are referring to quick ratio. This is the quickest ratio that the venerable Saginaw 700 series box came in.
Now, starting with the 1980 model year, GM switched over the metric O-ring style power steering hose fittings. This is not a big deal, one call to Lee Manufacturing ((818)768-0371 (talk to Tom Lee or his wife, they are very knowledgeable and can help with other steering questions as well) will land you the adapters for about $14.00 shipped to your door (You won't even see them once installed, very very trick). All this is provided you currently have power steering and want to reuse the original SAE flared seat hoses. If you are going to use a later model pump, then you can just use the metric O-ring style hoses and not have to deal with the adaptors.
Now, also starting about this time (1977 or so), GM switched to a 3/4" (O.D.) input shaft. Your 1964 has a 13/16" (O.D.) input shaft. This paper http://www.corvettefaq.com/acar/A-CarFastRatioGear10JN2002.doc, written by the very knowledgeable Jim Shea (retired from Saginaw Gear), nicely details the specifics of the older (’64-’67 Chevelle/El Camino) steering column and the modifications required to make the new quick ratio box work. Don’t worry, it’s nothing impossible.
Okay, now down to the dirty, since you are looking for a quick ratio (I’m presuming 12.7:1) steering box, you will need to find one with approximately the same amount of output shaft travel as your original box had (around 40° to 43°). To confuse matters even worse, GM did not use any type of external identifiers other than either a sticker or a grease stamping of a 2 character alpha code. As you can imagine, lots of times the sticker is missing, painted over or the grease stamping is worn and illegible or worn completely. Regardless if you are looking for this, it will either be on the aluminum top cover or front cover.
Here is a photo of what an alpha code looks like stamped on a steering box … this particular picture was taken by me of a 1992 Camaro Z/28 anniversary edition car –
The cars you will be looking for are:
1985-1988 Chevrolet Monte Carlo SS – Stamped “YA” – 39° 15mins
1988-1996 Chevrolet Caprice/Impala SS – Stamped one of the following codes – “CP, CT, DU, FB, HL, KW, MX, TW, or WZ” – Most likely you’ll find these quick ratio (12.7:1) boxes on a police optioned car (RPO 9C1) or an Impala SS) The RPO codes F41, FE, FE1, or FE2 may also yield a 12.7:1 steering box.
1994-1995 Buick “full size” – Stamped one of the following codes – “FK, KL”
1992-1998 Jeep Grand Cherokee – Any steering box from these years Jeep Grand Cherokee will be a quick ratio (12.7:1) power steering box that will bolt right into you’re car.
While the steering box from a Camaro may sound lucrative, they do not have the output shaft travel as your car does originally; their output shaft travel is typically around 32° to 35°. This will increase you’re turning radius and make the car harder to maneuver in general. I would shy away from the use of a Camaro box for this reason and that they will not be any cheaper or easier to locate than one of the boxes I provided above. Out of the above mentioned boxes, I would choose either the Caprice (or full sized Buick) or Jeep Grand Cherokee boxes because their output shaft travel is around 40° to 43°. The Monte Carlo SS box is a good box, but they are fairly hard to find, at least in this neck of the woods and it still doesn’t have the output shaft travel that your original box had. If you were to find one you would probably have to pay a premium price because it came from a Monte SS (much like IROC or GTA boxes command). The Camaro boxes work very nicely on the later model El Camino’s (1978-1988) because of their redesign at this time).
Finally, you will notice that some of these power steering boxes may have four mounting bosses while others may only have three. This does not matter to you since your car only uses three. The four mounting bosses were used in vehicles such as Jeep CJ’s.
I was one, if not the first guy on Team Chevelle to do this swap and I couldn’t have done it without the advice of member JimL82 (Jim Shea). Jim worked at Saginaw Steering for around 30 years. He posted one day, in response to a question that certain late model caprice’s steering boxes would physically fit our older Chevelles. From there I ran with it as I knew just where a 1992 Caprice was sitting in the junkyard. I completed the swap for just under $50 and that includes the price of the paint to paint the box and the new fluid to fill the system with.
The Caprice when equipped with RPO 9C1 a/k/a police package from 1992 the end of production in 1996 came with a 12.7:1 Saginaw power steering box which is externally identical to the original Saginaw steering box in your 1965 Chevelle.
I am very happy with this swap. I was able to complete it for less than $50. I just did the homework ahead of time (which is outlined above) and did not run into any problems. I swapped a 1992 Caprice 9C1 ('cop car') box into my 1972. The physical swap took me less than 3hrs when I did it in 2002. The car is much more enjoyable to drive now. I have the suspension pretty tight with 1 ¼” front sway bar and 7/8” rear bar higher rate springs. The car doesn’t lean much through turns and the box makes it more enjoyable as there are less turns to achieve the same movement (thanks to the quick ratio).
Enjoy!
Joined
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14,049 Posts
AGR makes a very, very nice quick ratio power steering box and even offers it in a generally stock look paint finish. It won't be confused with an original steering box, but it will perform perfectly. AGR boxes contain all new parts inside and if you take the time to order the correct one, they do not have the turning ratio limitations some other boxes can have and your steering rag joint will bolt right on. You can see some sample photos on my wagon web site referenced in my signature line. Go to the chassis pages.
I agree... A "New" box set up the way you need it, although it is more expensive... BUT, mine came with the correct "old" style box (could use my stock hoses) and an early spline input (so I could reuse my stock ragjoint)...Rich-L79 said:
Ironically, I forgot that I had already changed to the newer ragjoint during a previous swap, so I ended up have to scrounge for an early ragjoint...
I originally installed a Trans Am box in my Chevelle back in 1994 (hence the rag joint swap), and it worked pretty good for years... It finally started to get sloppy, and I found a Caprice "9C1" at the local wrecking yard... I pulled the box and bought a kit with new seals and pitman bearings (I didn't want to pull the box back out if it leaked, etc). Before I got around to rebuilding it, my Trans Am box went out (actually, had a noticible "detent" over-center... I decided to just get the "new" AGR box, and couldn't be happier...
So if you are mechanically inclined, want to cruise through the wrecking yards and find a used box, and don't mind rebuilding it yourself, you can save some money... If you want to bolt it on and go, maybe consider something new or rebuilt...
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14,049 Posts
If you do go rebuilt, be aware of what you may get. For example, NAPA sells a rebuilt box modified along the way to be a quick ratio box. The price is attractive, but by luck of the draw you may or may not get a box with a wide turning radius. When they rebuild them they do not distinguish between the boxes with narrow or wide stops inside and therefore sell them under a single part number.
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