[Aaron]

I wanted to start a thread that would discussion problems that come when engines are planned and built.

Recently I have had to pull my Dad's 383 due to continued spring breakage. In doing the repair myself. I have encounter alot of things that never came up in the building process with people who were employed or had a hand in part selection or selling a part. Much of this may make people mad or others leap for joy, I dont know. I hope it does help to all involved.

I consulted very close with my engine builder and head porter. Both are great professionals and I would use them again. However, there are some things that need to be brought to light.

It is my opinion, that if you are buying aftermarket heads, buy them bare. If you are buying second hand heads, tear them down and count on not using anything from that.

Springs and hardware should be bought separate from the cam.

If you are working with a head porter, let him set everything up. Dont buy any kits from the cam companies. Just buy a cam. I have had the awful experience of al that right down to the rocker studs of being used when it should not of.

If you buy a complete set of heads from someone. Have them recommend the cam.

Just my experience. I have left out alot of information on all the "errors" in my Dad's build due to this thread becoming very long. If asked, I can tell the story deeper.

Most of you weekend racers and or etc, may already know this, but many hobby men or cruiser men may not.

 

[chevcraz]

I hear you on the kits, engine parts selection (outside of bone stock) needs to be approached as a system, with reference to the entire vehicle and intended use.
Because no one needs the costs & inconvenience associated from buying incorrect parts. As you indicated you can't just buy all the parts at once.
IMO engine pre-assembly needs to confirm the correct parts are used, identify issues & correct the systems.
This takes planning, time, skill and experience to identify parts compatibility, where the issues hide and how to correct them.
I hope the people involved will stand behind their work for you.

 

[Steve69SS396]

I hadn't read the thread about your broken springs until now. Sounds like you need a better engine builder. They should not put it together unless it is absolutely correct. When I purchased my last set of heads from AFR I immediately took them to the machine shop so they could dis-assemble and inspect them. Doesn't matter if the parts are new or used it is worth having them checked before trying to use them.

 

[69-CHVL]

I think when one wants a "performance" engine you need to go to a "performance" builder and pay the price. These engine rebuild/machine shops IMO just dont have the time or get the ROI to play around with setting up springs precisely, checking p/v, coil bind etc. Do you think your average shop is gonna play around for days screwing around with pushrod length and checking sweeps (if they even know how to do it)? It has to be done though and if not there can be disasterous results. So pay now or pay more later!!

PS - just picked up engine parts from the machine shop a month ago. Wrong valve springs, heights not all the same, and the rotator eliminator does not sit perfectly flat in the spring pocket - it wobbles. Have to dress the eliminators a bit with a dremel. And I paid to have all this done (against my better judgement).

 

[jeff swisher]

I have seen a few engines from "reputable" machine shops that were pure junk.
Rockers barely on the valve tip.
Spring pressures on one build I fixed had 110 seat on 1 spring and some were 70 and the lightest ones were 55 psi seat pressure.

This was a friend of mines engine that his long time friend that owned a machine shop built for him and charged him over 4 grand for the junk.
Said he got the heads milled very small they were 993 heads and they had zero machine grooves and all rusty and pitted on the deck surface.
This was together for a month.
Was supposed to have Manley springs larger diameter than stock and forged pistons and aftermarket rods.
Had none of that just old stock replacement badgers.

Here is what I have learned....Do it yourself.
I farm out machine work like decking milling and bore and hone.

I researched the SBC for 2 years before I ever built or had one.
I purchasing many HP books and was reading all the magazines I could find.

I was all about the Oldsmobile engines before I went to the Chevy.

I pretty much knew what springs went with what cam etc by the time I got my hands on my first 350"

 

[Geo71]

I have my best luck with mismatched junk...they run forever and ya just can’t kill them.

 

[Aaron]

I hear you on the kits, engine parts selection (outside of bone stock) needs to be approached as a system, with reference to the entire vehicle and intended use.
Because no one needs the costs & inconvenience associated from buying incorrect parts. As you indicated you can't just buy all the parts at once.
IMO engine pre-assembly needs to confirm the correct parts are used, identify issues & correct the systems.
This takes planning, time, skill and experience to identify parts compatibility, where the issues hide and how to correct them.
I hope the people involved will stand behind their work for you.

Well, lets just say that the sentiment is not to correct this. The builder is now a track promoter. Does real well and all his dirt late models won all the time.

The head porter, nationally known, seems to not have records of anything. Even though I do.

Both have passed.

The sentiment is that they are not responsible. I sent a assembled head to the porter and he used what was there except for buying new valves and install a bigger intake valve. I feel he should of figured out something in the set up....

 

[Aaron]

I hadn't read the thread about your broken springs until now. Sounds like you need a better engine builder. They should not put it together unless it is absolutely correct. When I purchased my last set of heads from AFR I immediately took them to the machine shop so they could dis-assemble and inspect them. Doesn't matter if the parts are new or used it is worth having them checked before trying to use them.

Maybe so. His dirt late models won many races in the circuits here from the mid 90's to the mid 2010's.

You did the AFR heads the right way.

 

[Aaron]

I think when one wants a "performance" engine you need to go to a "performance" builder and pay the price. These engine rebuild/machine shops IMO just dont have the time or get the ROI to play around with setting up springs precisely, checking p/v, coil bind etc. Do you think your average shop is gonna play around for days screwing around with pushrod length and checking sweeps (if they even know how to do it)? It has to be done though and if not there can be disasterous results. So pay now or pay more later!!

PS - just picked up engine parts from the machine shop a month ago. Wrong valve springs, heights not all the same, and the rotator eliminator does not sit perfectly flat in the spring pocket - it wobbles. Have to dress the eliminators a bit with a dremel. And I paid to have all this done (against my better judgement).

This was done sir. He is a dirt track builder with many wins and customers from all over my state. Late model wins galore.

Machine shops didnt do any work except machine work.

I agree with your statement.

 

[Aaron]

I have seen a few engines from "reputable" machine shops that were pure junk.
Rockers barely on the valve tip.
Spring pressures on one build I fixed had 110 seat on 1 spring and some were 70 and the lightest ones were 55 psi seat pressure.

This was a friend of mines engine that his long time friend that owned a machine shop built for him and charged him over 4 grand for the junk.
Said he got the heads milled very small they were 993 heads and they had zero machine grooves and all rusty and pitted on the deck surface.
This was together for a month.
Was supposed to have Manley springs larger diameter than stock and forged pistons and aftermarket rods.
Had none of that just old stock replacement badgers.

Here is what I have learned....Do it yourself.
I farm out machine work like decking milling and bore and hone.

I researched the SBC for 2 years before I ever built or had one.
I purchasing many HP books and was reading all the magazines I could find.

I was all about the Oldsmobile engines before I went to the Chevy.

I pretty much knew what springs went with what cam etc by the time I got my hands on my first 350"

Agreed

 

[540 Olds]

Aaron; Don't know your age or how long you've been building engines, but... everything has to be checked and parts matched, like many have stated. Waaaay back in 1974, when I had no clue on how to build engines, I had a local "guru" do a 396 for me. He called to tell me he had everything but pistons, so I checked with other local people (no internet). Found a guy who had some 12-1 CR pistons in good shape, but he told me to get new rings because the ones on the pistons had "been run for 8 minutes in a boat at 7K rpm" and he advised not to use them...

I took them to my engine guy and told him about rings. I can still remember him holding the pistons up to the light, rotating them around in his hand, and then telling me "they're fine; chrome rings take a while to break in; they'll work." Who was I to argue with the guys who did it everyday.???

That engine knocked like a diesel and used a quart of oil every 100 miles til it dropped a valve, 2500 miles later, from a set of used heads. It was a powerless POS from day one. Funny now, looking back as I've had 47 years to recover from the TRAUMA of watching water come our of the oil pan plug before the oil.!!!! I knew that wasn't right.

Shortly after that, I started reading and learning how to do it myself. Guy who used to build my stuff when I lived in St. Louis was a one-man shop. I asked why he had no help; he said he hired guys in the past, they started out fine, but would begin to install parts right out of the box without checking things, so he figured his one-man show slowed him down, but saved him headaches.. I'm sure everyone on this forum has their "bad luck story"

Good luck with future projects;

 

[Aaron]

Aaron; Don't know your age or how long you've been building engines, but... everything has to be checked and parts matched, like many have stated. Waaaay back in 1974, when I had no clue on how to build engines, I had a local "guru" do a 396 for me. He called to tell me he had everything but pistons, so I checked with other local people (no internet). Found a guy who had some 12-1 CR pistons in good shape, but he told me to get new rings because the ones on the pistons had "been run for 8 minutes in a boat at 7K rpm" and he advised not to use them...

I took them to my engine guy and told him about rings. I can still remember him holding the pistons up to the light, rotating them around in his hand, and then telling me "they're fine; chrome rings take a while to break in; they'll work." Who was I to argue with the guys who did it everyday.???

That engine knocked like a diesel and used a quart of oil every 100 miles til it dropped a valve, 2500 miles later, from a set of used heads. It was a powerless POS from day one. Funny now, looking back as I've had 47 years to recover from the TRAUMA of watching water come our of the oil pan plug before the oil.!!!! I knew that wasn't right.

Shortly after that, I started reading and learning how to do it myself. Guy who used to build my stuff when I lived in St. Louis was a one-man shop. I asked why he had no help; he said he hired guys in the past, they started out fine, but would begin to install parts right out of the box without checking things, so he figured his one-man show slowed him down, but saved him headaches.. I'm sure everyone on this forum has their "bad luck story"

Good luck with future projects;

540 Olds

Im 46 years old and have been on this site since 1997.

I have been a chevelle owner since 1991, but not to many engine builds. I had a 307 for a few years. My uncle cleaned up two 305's off a chevy dealership since he worked there and made a one good one. I drove that one while in college. Car is a 67 chevelle and at that time had a glide and 3:08's. Got about 20 mpg with a 4 barrell.

I got a zz4 in 2000 and put in a 4 speed with 4:10 gears.

I have only really built three engines. Just one entire engine myself.

Funds and not really having a place to do the work, meant alot of vacant times in doing work.

I dont doubt that. Lots of those builders over the last 40 years. First, machine shop I went to in 1993 had that kind of deal. Only way to get that kind of understanding and stuff back then was to work at one.

I hope to more and more work. I have a decent shop now. However, it seems my paycheck gets less and less on the buying power. LOL Im sure the future will be more lean, but we will see.