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Mike, my only comment is that, swapping a LS, in sea of ls swaps , that changing one for something different is hardly the case any more. Your more like to be different at the car show if you have original power underhood.
 

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Yes Sir and completely agree. I very much welcome the innovation on all fronts as my cars are huge examples and benefit. I just disagree with the broad false narratives that are perpetuated.

Mike
 

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Discussion Starter #43
Don't get me wrong Mike, not trying to perpetuate any false narratives. Occasionally, you will find a well maintained SBC or BBC that will start right up in the cold, but not one with 100k miles on it and not to mention one with 200k+ miles and original rings and bearings. You may find an older Gen engine that gets good mpg as well, but it probably doesn't produce >400hp or it has a modern overdrive transmission and a lockup converter.

I appreciate a numbers matching old school hotrod more than you know. My friend, Craig, however is not a gear head. He struggled with things you and I take for granted, like how to break in a flat tappet cam, or how to time an engine. For him the LS swap made perfect sense. And for me, I love wiring computers and pinning harnesses and using software to calibrate every setting to the finest degree.

You are welcome to your opinions... just seems kind of odd that you wandered into a page called LSx Engines, to bash those who like them.
 

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I only use the "new" button tab. And click on items that I want to check out.
Typically not paying any attention to the sub forum I'm in.
I will have to say I didn't intend to come here and bash your swap. But I will admit I was disappointed when I thought I saw a numbers car being swapped.
It's nothing personal. And as I stated it seems like the best fit for you and your client.
 

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I too use the New button constantly. Keeps from having to go in every Forum.

Mike
 

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Just a point: after WWII you had a lot of guys taking newer flat head V8 motors and dropping them into 30's cars to go faster than the stock 4cyl flathead. This was basically the birth of hot rodding. Since then car guys have constantly been on the hunt to improve performance whatever way possible. Which leads us to 2021 where the LS swap is a VERY popular upgrade for classic cars of all styles.

My first car as a 16 year old in 1984 was a 69 Chevelle that I bought off my uncle. It was a 350, powerglide car with a 10 bolt open rear. Literally seconds after transferring the title into my name I enlisted my dad and a few buddies to pull the 350 so it could be rebuilt for more performance. I upgraded the cam, had the heads mildly ported, swapped from a 2bbl to a 4bbl, sold the powerglide and bought a complete 4 speed swap and a 12 bolt rear out of a junkyard. By the time I was 17, I had a pretty badass car. I saw NOTHING wrong with making performance upgrades to make my car more enjoyable to drive. And I still feel the same way today.

Let's face facts.....4 wheel drum brakes leave a LOT to be desired. Most stock suspensions on Musclecars handle like a Mack truck. Points are extremely outdated and I'll bet a lot of guys don't know how to use a dwell meter or even know about using a matchbook cover in a jam. These days most guys can do a base carb adjustment but the finer points of accurately tuning a carb are a lost art. And frankly, most stock 60's to early 70's Musclecars were high 14-low 15 second cars back in the day and will get smoked by a mini van or a 4 door Accord these days. Hell, my wife drives a 2016 Subaru WRX that runs mid 13's and frankly unless you're running an LS-6 Chevelle, a base 325 or 350HP 396 car will get a good look at her taillights.

The bottom line is that not everyone wants to spend a ton of time under the hood of their old car. Take me for example. I've built quite a few cars and motors over the years. I've helped my buddies do the same for their cars. We've swapped motors, transmissions, rears, painted cars, welded quarters on, floor and trunk pans, converted from drum to disc, even converted from carb to FI, and more over the years. But now at 52 with a job, a house, kids, and a wife, I don't really want to do that stuff anymore. Been there and done that. Also, I live in PA where I can only truly enjoy my car from late April through early October and then it gets put away for 5-6 months. Since I have a limited window to enjoy my car, the last thing I want to do is miss a cruise night because I'm fiddling around under the hood.

My point is this: a lot of guys are OK with updating brakes, suspension, wheels, ignition, exhaust, etc but draw the line at an LS swap?....that really doesn't make a lot of sense to me. I do agree that I wouldn't LS swap a number's matching car. But otherwise why not take advantage of the improvements in technology over the last 50 years?? Isn't that the essence of hot rodding??
 
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Discussion Starter #47
Very well said Greg. Thanks for sharing your perspective. I think we can all agree that we share a passion for cars. Our passions take us in different places based on our individual tastes. But we should enjoy and appreciate our love of car stuff and keep the passion alive for the next generation... whatever form that may be. Take care guys and keep up the good work with all the awesome projects you have!
 

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I have owned over 65 cars or so, all american cars and they have all been dependable when serviced properly except the 2 LS ones and had to be towed to the repair shops. When they stop working your stranded. The old cars generally can be gotten home and repaired for cheap with new parts gotten from autozone. my 3 BB's get more attention at shows than the LS, few as they are and help to preserve these old cars. My 69 Camaro that I have owned for 42 years with over 150K miles has never let me down as has my 33 year owned 427 C-10 with a 700R is dependable and gets decent gas mileage, like I really care about MPG. To each his owned, just my opinion and the "old" BB and SB are antiquated is just not true and with all the after market product to improve those engines without a tolal change is very real. Just an old 72 year guy that restores these cars the way the clients want, its their choice and their money.
 

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Discussion Starter #49
I have owned over 65 cars or so, all american cars and they have all been dependable when serviced properly except the 2 LS ones and had to be towed to the repair shops. When they stop working your stranded. The old cars generally can be gotten home and repaired for cheap with new parts gotten from autozone. my 3 BB's get more attention at shows than the LS, few as they are and help to preserve these old cars. My 69 Camaro that I have owned for 42 years with over 150K miles has never let me down as has my 33 year owned 427 C-10 with a 700R is dependable and gets decent gas mileage, like I really care about MPG. To each his owned, just my opinion and the "old" BB and SB are antiquated is just not true and with all the after market product to improve those engines without a tolal change is very real. Just an old 72 year guy that restores these cars the way the clients want, its their choice and their money.
Ok look, we can have intelligent conversation about what our preferences are in terms of which generation of GM powerplants we like best. And those are fun conversations because we usually learn something and appreciate others views when we do. But I agree with Mike 100% that when we perpetuate false narratives it serves no one but our own egos. So just be careful... gross exaggerations make you less trustworthy and even the "truths" in what you may have said will be discounted.
 

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Right, but no exaggerations, maybe deserves further explanations, but I don't think so. Of the 8 cars I currently have, they are different variations of powerplants and they all serve their intended purpose and I like them all and I am beyond nurturing my ego. I am a car guy through and through. Just an old guy talkin!!!
 

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Discussion Starter #51
Right, but no exaggerations, maybe deserves further explanations, but I don't think so. Of the 8 cars I currently have, they are different variations of powerplants and they all serve their intended purpose and I like them all and I am beyond nurturing my ego. I am a car guy through and through. Just an old guy talkin!!!
We're all car guys through and through, that is why we are all here. So lets try to be honest and constructive with the car community. With that, I do have to call you out on what seems like some exaggerations.

Some things don't add up...

1. 65 cars and 2 of them were LS based. No other cars except the LS based ones left you stranded and they both did. But the other 63 have never left you stranded... ok
2. Nearly every V8 GM has produced from 1999 to 2014 were LS based (and if you include LTs in the mix its 2021) yet you've only had 2. Maybe your other cars are Fords or something... maybe
3. You had to take the LS based cars to a shop for repairs yet you build and restore cars for clients... ok
4. You also build cars for others but you've been struggling for 10 years to get your starter off your 69 Chevelle SS... ok
Starter removal
Starter Removal?
5. 150k miles on a 69 camaro with no issues... ok
6. a 427 in a C10 with good gas mileage. Even with a 700r4, you may get 12 cruising compared to 10 with a 350 or 400. so I guess that is good mileage. The chevelle I swapped the LQ9 into had a 454 with a mild cam, 3.42 gears, and a 700r4 that averaged single digit gas mileage.

So yeah I guess you're right, just an old guy talkin', like grandpas old 15lb bass stories...
 

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We're all car guys through and through, that is why we are all here. So lets try to be honest and constructive with the car community. With that, I do have to call you out on what seems like some exaggerations.

Some things don't add up...

1. 65 cars and 2 of them were LS based. No other cars except the LS based ones left you stranded and they both did. But the other 63 have never left you stranded... ok
2. Nearly every V8 GM has produced from 1999 to 2014 were LS based (and if you include LTs in the mix its 2021) yet you've only had 2. Maybe your other cars are Fords or something... maybe
3. You had to take the LS based cars to a shop for repairs yet you build and restore cars for clients... ok
4. You also build cars for others but you've been struggling for 10 years to get your starter off your 69 Chevelle SS... ok
Starter removal
Starter Removal?
5. 150k miles on a 69 camaro with no issues... ok
6. a 427 in a C10 with good gas mileage. Even with a 700r4, you may get 12 cruising compared to 10 with a 350 or 400. so I guess that is good mileage. The chevelle I swapped the LQ9 into had a 454 with a mild cam, 3.42 gears, and a 700r4 that averaged single digit gas mileage.

So yeah I guess you're right, just an old guy talkin', like grandpas old 15lb bass stories...
Jeff you seem like a decent dude. And you have handled the criticism in this forum with stride.
Please don't go looking for a fight. We all have had a moment of frustration or something that just didn't work well. Digging up that guys post about the starter doesn't do anyone any good.
And for what's it worth I have had over 85 cars and trucks and only 3 have had the LS. Mostly all gm. Only a few non gm things here and there. And I'm not even 40....


Other thought unrelated about the idea about brakes, suspension updates vs LS.
I can't get the modern day braking performance from my drums, so it upgrade time. But I can however get 500 hp for a small block and be able to drive it everyday. The advancements that are applied to the LS have also been applied to the older engines. Quick ramp cams, and MFPI, etc, etc. So that's not really an apples to apples comparison.
I currently have a 454 gmt400 that pulls down 15mpg. That's on par with most LS5.3 pickups that aren't 25 years old....
 

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I will finish with a clarification on a few areas of poor communications on my part. I had a restoration business with my son in the 80' and 90's, specializing in first gen Camaros, hence The Camaro Guys in Arkansas. My day job was an executive with a nationwide company. My first Camaro was purchased in 1978 as our 2nd car, driven for 10 years, which I still own with the same maintained 350. Starting another company with my old boss brought me to NC, where I still restore 1960's GM cars, not newer than that, 1 at a time in my shop. It didn't take 10 years to change a starter, I owned the Chevelle for 10 years. My daily drivers have been 6 Cadillac since 1995 and none of them have LS engines, but my 99 Z-28 and 05 Corvette do and both have had issues with the computers and other issues that I will not bore you guys. I will keep my comments short and sweet and clear as not to upset any of you terrific folks.
 

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Discussion Starter #55
Great advice Binford. And I apologize Camaro Guy. You are all good people and we do share a passion. I got a little out of hand with the last post. You guys take care and keep up the good work!
 

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I hope am kinds hoping this debate has ran its course now. We all have are own thoughts on engines. There are plenty of cars around and enough space for us to do as we wish....
 

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We've had this debate several times before and well, different strokes for different folks as they say.

I have two friends in our Chevelle club that have made the switch, one has a 71 with a new crate Corvette motor and drive train and another has two, one 71 and one 66 with engines from wrecks and now working on putting another one in an old Suburban and they are very happy with them.

I, would love to have a Chevelle with a modern drive train myself if I could afford one.
Nice driving, more power that a big block yet gets good gas mileage and looks like an original Chevelle, what could be better?
 

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Don Nickelson said it best, " no such thing as a street strip car, what you have is a car the runs poorly on the street as well as the strip"..

I see more posts by people who have put all those modern pats on there cars and have nothing but trouble..
 

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Discussion Starter #59
It not so much how it was said and more to the fact that what was said is just not true. My stock 1978 454 with quadrajet runs without any issues in any kind of weather..

Here's what they do to ruin street engines.

1) Use a cam with too much duration and overlap along with not enough lobe separation..\
2) Open the ports up so you can put your hand through them. This really screws a street engine up. This ruins low rpm velocity..
3) Then to get all these poorly matched parts to even run, they jack the compression to 12:1...

Don Nickelson said it best, " no such thing as a street strip car, what you have is a car the runs poorly on the street as well as the strip"..
You said it Brother... I made that mistake on an LS build I did many years. I didnt bump compression but I put a cam that was way to big in a 65 c10 that I wanted to drive on the street. It had duration like 230/240 duration and an LSA of 110 degrees on a small 5.3 lm7 with a stock converter. I wanted that chop chop... and I got it. But I paid the price at stop lights with it pushing through the converter and bouncing all over the place. And my usable RPM range was about 4000-6500. Driving around was miserable. Old school and new school can all learn from those that came before us like Don Nicholson!
 
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