[LS_5]

I'm interested in upgrading the ps pump/resovoir in my PT '70. Right now, I have an OEM style pump hooked up to a Flaming River 12:1 QR gearbox and to a hydroboost.

What would you guys recommend? I'd prefer to not get into a remote resovoir unless it's absolutely necessary. Trying to keep the engine compartment as clean as possible, without lines running everywhere.

I know Lee makes a great set-up, but I can't seem to find their website and I read that Mr Lee may have some health issues. Hopefully nothing bad happened to him.

Are there any other quality PS pump/resovoirs out there that will compliment the Flaming River gearbox and hydroboost?

Thanks.

Andy

 

[NelsonV]

Sorry I don't know what to recommend.
But as a matter of warning, I do know what to recommend against; that is, if you really are adamant against a remote reservoir: the March Performance is not a good choice to run with your hydroboost. Its reservoir is not large enough to support PS plus hydroboost.

If on the other hand you would consider a remote reservoir, I can say I am well pleased with my March reservoir. To me, it's strictly a cosmetic addition. I can't say for sure if it's a performance upgrade as I haven't run any other pump with my combination of PS + hydroboost. You can see what I encountered and did here: http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=10930

As for Tom Lee, (I haven't heard anything about his health; I hope he's OK.) but when I ordered my Lee box, I couldn't find a website at all. He is in SoCAL, though. I believe I found him through Google or something as "Lee Manufacturing" in Sun Valley, CA, or somewhere thereabouts.

Hope this helps.
:beers:
Nelson V.

 

[yanniz]

the best reservoir that works great with the hydroboost system is the PSC motorsports...I have it in my car, with a Zoops type II pump, AGR box and I am very happy...

http://www.pscmotorsports.com/sr102-6-ps-reservoir-for-hydroboost-p-153.html

 

[LS_5]

Sorry I don't know what to recommend.
But as a matter of warning, I do know what to recommend against; that is, if you really are adamant against a remote reservoir: the March Performance is not a good choice to run with your hydroboost. Its reservoir is not large enough to support PS plus hydroboost.

If on the other hand you would consider a remote reservoir, I can say I am well pleased with my March reservoir. To me, it's strictly a cosmetic addition. I can't say for sure if it's a performance upgrade as I haven't run any other pump with my combination of PS + hydroboost. You can see what I encountered and did here: http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=10930

As for Tom Lee, (I haven't heard anything about his health; I hope he's OK.) but when I ordered my Lee box, I couldn't find a website at all. He is in SoCAL, though. I believe I found him through Google or something as "Lee Manufacturing" in Sun Valley, CA, or somewhere thereabouts.

Hope this helps.
:beers:
Nelson V.

Thanks, Nelson. Yes. I already tried the March pump/resovoir and learned the hard way about the tiny resovoir issue. Too bad because it's a nice looking piece. That's when I went back to the OEM style sagninaw set-up. Just got a second return line fitting installed in the oem resovoir so the "T" fitting could be eliminated for the hydroboost lines - but I'm still concerned that the OEM pump isn't big enough to handle the demands of both systems (steering and brakes) - and given the obvious critical importance of both systems, I'd hate to find out the hard way that it doesn't work right.

That's why I'm trying to find a quality alternative to something that's more or less homemade - or made into something for which it never was intended.

I have the Lee Mfg phone number and will try to give a call next week. Hopefully he's still there and can provide a solution. The 3 hour time difference always seems to get in the way. When I think about it, it's either too early or too late to call to folks out there!?

the best reservoir that works great with the hydroboost system is the PSC motorsports...I have it in my car, with a Zoops type II pump, AGR box and I am very happy...

http://www.pscmotorsports.com/sr102-6-ps-reservoir-for-hydroboost-p-153.html

Thanks. I'll check it out!


Thanks to both of you!:thumbsup:

Andy

 

[LS_5]

Some of you guys know Cody. He hasn't been on this board since January, apparently, but he did a really nice job with his install. He has a Lee set-up with a remote resovoir and filter in his firebird for PS and a hydroboost. Here's a thread from Team Camaro that has some nice tight pics of his set in post #4:

http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=57882

It's as clean of an installation as I've seen for having this many lines.

 

[vrooom3440]

There is actually very little functional reason to change the PS pump. The stock pumps put out enough to handle both steering and brake boost with no problem. Heck the stock pumps spend most of their time throttled back and bypassing much of their output back into the pump.

That said, there are two reasons to change the pump. The first and most valid is if you are going open track racing. Heat build up can be an issue during road course driving. Switching to an external reservoir type pump is said to be good for a 60* drop in fluid temperatures. Of course adding an inline cooler can make a difference too.

The other reason to change pump is for space. This is really true with a short water pump and driver side alternator setup. In this configuration you just do not have room above the PS pump for a reservoir.

A lot of the aftermarket setups run the GM Type-II compact pump and this will work. It can require some adaptation with mounts, but if you are running a SBC there are a ton of mounts out there for circle track racing.

Then there is the Saginaw N-pump option used by Cody as highlighted above. This setup was also used by Carl Casanova on his Camaro after he melted the filler neck off of an OEM PS pump tank. Most do not know that there is a totally tank-less variant of the Saginaw power steering pump we have in our cars. But there is

I have one on my El Camino about the same except that I got mine from the wrecking yard for next to nothing. Look for about an '85 Cadillac Deville with the V8. There are a few others as well, I think I have posted a complete list previously. These mount almost the same as the regular Saginaw P-pump, at least the mounts are all located in the same places. One of the front mounts is not machined down in as far so the mounting is a little deeper.

I used the Alan Grove Components LWP mid-mount PS pump mount and modified it with some shims for the depth. Made up a front tensioner plate and away I go. Those shims worked out very well as a place to mount my idler pulley for clearance... I am running BBC with SWP and alternator on DS.

I am running OEM-style hoses for the most part so they are not as clean as Cody's. Note that the Saginaw P-pump will accept the same control/output valve as the N-pump so you could potentially run stock hoses with this pump.

 

[LS_5]

Thanks for all the info, Steve. That helps alot!

I've got a BBC (was a 454, soon to be a 555). I don't plan to race it at a circle track and the alternator is on the passenger's side, so no space issues. It does have a March serpentine system, including the alternator - and used to have their billet ps pump/resovoir, too. Won't re-hash that.

Anyway, maybe I will give the OEM style pump another try. I just was getting nervous about having the brakes and steering tied together via the OEM ps pump - that wasn't designed with a hydroboost in mind. Sounds like it was "over engineered", though, which in this case is a good thing!

Thanks for great advice! :thumbsup: I appreciate it.

Andy

 

[vrooom3440]

So more information to consider... I'll go just a bit more in technical depth this time.

The PS pump is designed such that it puts out a certain fixed amount of fluid for every revolution. It uses a design with an eccentric outer body with vanes rotating in the middle and there are dual compression chambers. So there is a fair amount of suck/squeeze/spew going on. The output of the pump internals naturally varies with RPM but the steering system relies on a constant volume. This constant volume is produced by regulating with a venturi (just like in your carb) feedback loop to the control valve. The desired 2-3 GPM output flow generates a suction on the back side of the control valve pulling it back to open up the bleed port. Excess volume is thus bled off directly from the pump output to it's input.

The system needs to be designed to provide full PS boost at idle RPM, which on a stock motor can be as low as 650 RPM. Above that the output only goes up, in fact the circle track guys (due to their extended high RPM) put serious under-drive pulleys on the PS pump to reduce output. This all means that if you have an idle above 650 RPM, like mine at 850 for example, you already have excess pump output.

Next full output volume is not always needed, only on radical steering movements.

And finally there is some redundancy built into the hydrobooster since the brakes are a critical system. They have a gas pressure cylinder so that you have boost through a couple of brake applications even if you do not have any hydraulic pressure. But this pressure reserve will be recharged at the next opportunity just as it was with a vacuum booster.

So the bottom line is I would have NO reservations about running a stock Saginaw PS pump with hydroboost brakes :thumbsup:

 

[LS_5]

As long as we're on this topic and since you know so much about this, I have another question.

I also have a '70 convertible with a stock BBC, stock brakes and a 4 speed on Polyglas tires. No hydroboost. When I park, and the rpm's drop to idle (about 800 rpm), the wheel becomes hard to turn - especially when I'm working the clutch to get into a parking spot or into the garage. Under normal driving conditions, though, it works fine. Has the same wheel resistance and road feel as your average boat in the water!

Given what you said, then, is that an indication that the pump may need replaced? That it isn't pumping at the 2-3 gallons a minute it should? I always thought it was a loose belt - but the belt is always snug when I check it after the motor is shut down.

Thanks again, Steve.

 

[vrooom3440]

Yes that does sound like a low pump output. I presume this may be the original pump or of some other unknown and extended age? These pumps do last a very long time, but inside there are parts rubbing together and wearing. In particular the fit of the vanes against the eccentric cam ring and on their ends could become a problem. Especially if the pump has ever been run dry or had "abrasive" matter run through it.

The other thing that does not sound like it applys here is non-stock pulleys. All of the chrome pulleys I have seen are original diameter. But many/most of the aftermarket aluminum pulleys are actually under-drive ratio pulleys. The crank pulley is often smaller than OEM which slows the accessories down. This may in some instances lead to low PS pump output, low alternator voltage, and overheating at idle.

Sounds like, except for the serpentine belt issue perhaps, you should put that shiny March PS pump in the convertible

And that boat steering is fixable too with the Jeep GC swap :thumbsup:

 

[LS_5]

Thanks, Steve!

The convertible is the stock ride. The coupe is the PT car that was/will be again the really fun car to drive! Can sort of bat from both sides of the car hobby plate, depending on what I/we are interested in doing, I guess.

So, yes, the convertible has stock pulley's and there will be no March ps pump used on it. I sold it already, anyway.

Looks like I have the first item for the annual winter projects list!

 

[CarlC]

There's info on my website about using a Lee's modified P-pump with remote reservoir.

Unless you are going to open track the car hard a stock reservoir (preferably the one-piece square-shape type) and an inline return cooler will work fine. It's when the car is pushed hard for more than 10 minutes that the stock system will overheat. It won't happen ever in street/spirited canyon driving.

I ran the stock pump for a while before the meltdown. It works find. The Lee's pump has a smaller pump liner to reduce the fluid volume, which helps keep temperatures down.

The later model TC or CB pumps will not work well with a small block short water pump setup. There's more info about this as well on my website.

 

[LS_5]

Thanks, Carl.

I don't plan to open track the coupe, but I always seem to wind up doing stuff to/with the cars that I never thought I'd do. Having the extra front end weight of the BBC in a mid-sized coupe wouldn't lend itself to a lot of tight cornering manuevers, I wouldn't think. If it's ever raced, it'll be more straight line types of stuff. I PT'ed/modernized the suspension, brakes, ride height, installed bigger wheels/tires, etc for road safety because of the extra power on board - should be about 750-800 fwhp with the 555 in another month, or so. I didn't want to risk using vintage OEM engineering/technology for those things.

I did, however, bookmark your website, along side Cody's Firebird threads, in case something changes and I need a some reference material. :thumbsup:

Andy