[trmnatr]

Who would like to see Patriot 190's tested against 291 GM heads?

As Mike AKA BigRed point out, by time you pay for valve guides, valve job, mill-drill & tap heads for screw in studs, valves, springs, retainers, locks, cut spring pockets, hot tank, bowl porting and valves you could buy a set of Patriot 190's

So are they gonna make more power, On paper they should.

Is this a good idea? This head can be bought cheaper than doing all the work to double hump heads

Tell me your thought or opinions...

 

[trmnatr]

Suggestion type of ideas
Other suggestions such as flow test?
Photos?
Maybe pressure test the Patriot springs

Anything else?

 

[trmnatr]

Mike AKA BigRed should have some good data on Pariot 190's when he hits the race track

 

[RB69SS396Conv]

I wouldn't mind seeing that. Although as we all know, flow #s alone don't tell near the whole story; but they sure are one of the bigger pieces of it.

Might be a good idea to list whatever clean-up/finish work needs to be done to the Patriots to make them actually ready to run, and tally up the typical-ish machine shop charges for doing that (seems to be a "hidden" cost that practically always ends up being necessary); then do the same thing for a set of as-delivered 291s. Even though I don't think we can still buy those particular ones new nor are we likely to find a totally untouched set "in the wild", the same machine shop costs should transfer to basically any stock iron heads.

Then, as we are all long-term familiar with the performance of the 291s, having track times and dyno numbers and whatever else for the others, would give a valuable point of apples-to-apples reference.

Does anyone ever run any of the springs that just "come" on any aftermarket heads if no specific ones are specified, ever? I thought they mostly just supplied something to hold the valve train together, i.e. basically just packing material for shipping, and you are supposed to install whatever springs and hardware your combo requires. At least, that's certainly been my experience.

 

[Dave427]

Try one of the cheapest but reliable after market heads. I have always had great luck with World Sportsman II's. They are 200cc and come all assembled quite reasonable.

Dave

 

[trmnatr]

Try one of the cheapest but reliable after market heads. I have always had great luck with World Sportsman II's. They are 200cc and come all assembled quite reasonable.

Dave

We have a set of sportsman II's but have been ported

 

[Tony Mamo @ AFR]

Throw in a set of our 195 street heads....

A little more money....ALOT more power.

Guaranteed if you evaluate this swap on a HP per dollar basis (thats the real "value" inherent in any swap), I bet you the AFR's are significantly stronger than any option/combination you could come up with if you give us a fair shake on the true costs of the swap.

-Tony

 

[sschevellefan]

I`m curiouse to see how the patriotsperform over the 291`s my self. I agree on paper they should out flow the 291`s. how about a dyno shootout as well?

 

[EC's 327]

Throw in a set of our 195 street heads....

A little more money....ALOT more power.

Guaranteed if you evaluate this swap on a HP per dollar basis (thats the real "value" inherent in any swap), I bet you the AFR's are significantly stronger than any option/combination you could come up with if you give us a fair shake on the true costs of the swap.

-Tony

THIS would be interesting. Same short block, variables being the heads and cam (I don't like test that use the same cam because you can make one set look better than another if the cam leans towards on head or another) Total the cost of the heads and cam chosen, all the the SHOP LABOR involved, then divide that by the horsepower below 6000 rpm.

 

[Tony Mamo @ AFR]

THIS would be interesting. Same short block, variables being the heads and cam (I don't like test that use the same cam because you can make one set look better than another if the cam leans towards on head or another) Total the cost of the heads and cam chosen, all the the SHOP LABOR involved, then divide that by the horsepower below 6000 rpm.

Not realistic....

Pick a generic cam that favors no one.....something that the masses is likely to purchase. Something very popular....common if you will.

A 350 with an idle to 6000 RPM target powerband should have no bigger than a high teens to mid 220's cam @ .050.

Something like this if you like to hang your hat on the conservative hook

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-08-422-8/

Or the same XE family with the 224/230 lobes. I bet there are hundreds....perhaps thousands of these cams out in the field.

Pick a Lunati grind if you like....whatever floats your boat, but trying four different cams with three different cylinder heads is not realistic unless someone out there has access to a dyno and has lots of money and time to invest in R&D trying all these different potential combinations.

Pick a cam that represents a typical install that will appeal to a large audience, insure the chambers are the same volume of the heads in question and have at it. Its a test that can be done in 1-2 dyno days versus 5-6 and even that would take a fair amount of effort to pull off.

Also, why terminate the test at 6K.....even stock components can spin 6500 without much trouble. That is a much better RPM ceiling and more realistic of current cylinder head and intake manifold development. Even the dual plane air gap is still making plenty of steam at 6500 RPM. I propose a test just like the old engine masters....from 2500 -6500. That is very real world and applicable to most street bound combinations, even milder ones. Plus what really separates the men from the boys in this hypothetical proposed cylinder head comparo will really be seen north of 5800.

-Tony

 

[DOUG G]

As cast Vs. as cast Vs. ported Vs. ported


sounds good...lettem eat

 

[Tony Mamo @ AFR]

As cast Vs. as cast Vs. ported Vs. ported


sounds good...lettem eat

Lettem eat is right.....LOL

And for what its worth, from all the testing I have seen over the years, no matter what cam you choose, the better heads will always shine and they will usually shine upstairs (at the higher R's) when airflow is scarce and hard to come by due to the incredibly short minuscule fraction of a second the atmosphere has to fill the cylinder.

-Tony

PS....Henry DeLoSantos.....are you reading this?? Someone is trying to beat you to your SBC shoot-out....LOL

 

[EC's 327]

Not realistic....

Pick a generic cam that favors no one.....something that the masses is likely to purchase. Something very popular....common if you will.

A 350 with an idle to 6000 RPM target powerband should have no bigger than a high teens to mid 220's cam @ .050.

Something like this if you like to hang your hat on the conservative hook

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CCA-08-422-8/

Or the same XE family with the 224/230 lobes. I bet there are hundreds....perhaps thousands of these cams out in the field.

Pick a Lunati grind if you like....whatever floats your boat, but trying four different cams with three different cylinder heads is not realistic unless someone out there has access to a dyno and has lots of money and time to invest in R&D trying all these different potential combinations.

Pick a cam that represents a typical install that will appeal to a large audience, insure the chambers are the same volume of the heads in question and have at it. Its a test that can be done in 1-2 dyno days versus 5-6 and even that would take a fair amount of effort to pull off.

Also, why terminate the test at 6K.....even stock components can spin 6500 without much trouble. That is a much better RPM ceiling and more realistic of current cylinder head and intake manifold development. Even the dual plane air gap is still making plenty of steam at 6500 RPM. I propose a test just like the old engine masters....from 2500 -6500. That is very real world and applicable to most street bound combination's, even milder ones. Plus what really separates the men from the boys in this hypothetical proposed cylinder head comparo will really be seen north of 5800.

-Tony

I understand what you are saying. I didn't mean a custom grind for each, I agree, something like CS XR270HR-10 or the CS XE268H-10 would be a fair test. I also agree with the 2500-6500. I just don't have interest in the tests that put a HUGE cam in a set of heads that make a ton of power at 7000 rpm, but don't have more than 200 ft/lbs before 5000 rpm. That is not a street engine nor is it close to streetable.

As for the test PROPOSED between a set of used 291's and a set of Patriots, I don't think it would be a big deal to pick an off the shelf cam to match the flow numbers of each head. Most likely you can even use the same lifters and springs if its a roller. the main thing to try to get out of the test is the Horsepower per dollar. At least for Guys like me with limited resources.

 

[trmnatr]

Lettem eat is right.....LOL

And for what its worth, from all the testing I have seen over the years, no matter what cam you choose, the better heads will always shine and they will usually shine upstairs (at the higher R's) when airflow is scarce and hard to come by due to the incredibly short minuscule fraction of a second the atmosphere has to fill the cylinder.

-Tony

PS....Henry DeLoSantos.....are you reading this?? Someone is trying to beat you to your SBC shoot-out....LOL

With the double humps BTW we only shift @ 6000rpm and run 6500rpm past the lights, ET's quicker by .0500 if you shift @ 6,000rpm and let it hang out in high gear

We are changing the flywheel to the JW heavy flex plate for better 60' and less RPM drop on the gear changes

 

[trmnatr]

I understand what you are saying. I didn't mean a custom grind for each, I agree, something like CS XR270HR-10 or the CS XE268H-10 would be a fair test. I also agree with the 2500-6500. I just don't have interest in the tests that put a HUGE cam in a set of heads that make a ton of power at 7000 rpm, but don't have more than 200 ft/lbs before 5000 rpm. That is not a street engine nor is it close to streetable.

As for the test PROPOSED between a set of used 291's and a set of Patriots, I don't think it would be a big deal to pick an off the shelf cam to match the flow numbers of each head. Most likely you can even use the same lifters and springs if its a roller. the main thing to try to get out of the test is the Horsepower per dollar. At least for Guys like me with limited resources.

BUT this is a race engine but could be a RADICAL street engine

When the engine ran 10.40's it was indeed 10.96:1, not so now

Specs on the engine are (BTW, we are upping the compression to 13.5:1 but will be 13.5:1 with both)...
-stock 400 block .030 over
-stock crank
-Ohio rods
-Probe pistons (lighter than the 10.96:1 pistons)
-Crane saturday night special flat tappet 256/264 @.050" .545"/.563" 105 lobe seperation
- Vic Jr. (may try RPM)
- 850 modified by us
- powerglide with 5200rpm stall (would use about 4,000 with a turbo 350/400
- 12 bolt rear with 32" tires and 4.88's (about like a 4.30 gear with 28's)

Nothing is changing in the engine besided compression then we will run what ever heads we run

Our double humps flow pretty well and have made great torque to push the car to its best of 10.41 and a best mph of 128.42

Maybe i can talk my buddy into letting me use his old 190 AFR's of new 195's

 

[trmnatr]

Tony,

You think these domes will clear the 195 Eliminators (4.155" bore)?

 

[Tony Mamo @ AFR]

With the double humps BTW we only shift @ 6000rpm and run 6500rpm past the lights, ET's quicker by .0500 if you shift @ 6,000rpm and let it hang out in high gear

We are changing the flywheel to the JW heavy flex plate for better 60' and less RPM drop on the gear changes

A better head will change that completely and evaluating the curve at a higher RPM becomes mandatory. A better head will always require a slightly higher shiftpoint to get the most from it but still run harder at the original shiftpoint as well.

The new 195 Elims can extend 500 or more RPM of usable fat power with perfect valve control and plenty of air to fill the cylinder as well.

Look at this comparison against our own former product (no slouch as all of you know) to better understand what Im trying to convey....

Damn....its off our new website....will post it when I get in the office next week. Its a very enlightening comparison.

-Tony

EDIT: Butch....I don't see why not but the piston manufacturer would likely be a better source. Our street stuff is all a direct bolt on with everything in stock GM L98 location (rocker studs, valve centerlines, etc.)

 

[Mikeys69]

Just a little something from both the AFR web-site and the Patriot web site.
Lots of details have been left out of both builds. But they are both 383's complete with 190 and 195 heads.
The Patriot is running just over 1 point cr than the AFR. Both are using a H-Roller. Please don't flame the messager.

383 cid Small Block Chevy Package
• 383 cid Small Block Chevy Package
• AFR 195cc Street Cylinder Heads
• 9.5 to 1 Compression
• 1 3/4” Headers
• Edelbrock #7101 and 0-4779 750 cfm Holley Carb
• Comp Cams Hydraulic Roller Cam #12-433-8
• MSD Distributor 36° Timing
• 93° Octane Pump Gas
=================================================

383 cid Small Block Chevy Package
• Seasoned GM 4-Bolt Main (2 pc. rear main seal) Short Block
• Patriot Performance 190cc Freedom Series Straight Plug Heads
• Scat Crank and I Beam Rods
• Forged Pistons
• Fel-Pro Head Gaskets
• New Head Bolts and Hardened Washers
• MSD Distributor
• Aluminum Water Pump
• Edelbrock Air Gap Intake Port Matched to Heads
• Double Roller Timing Chain
• Polished Aluminum Valve Covers
• Scorpion Roller Rockers
• Hardened Pushrods
• Howards Hydraulic Roller Camshaft
• 10.3-1 Compression
==================================================
AFR

Patriot

 

[Mikeys69]

Just to clear the air a little bit. The 291 heads are almost identical to the 462 heads.
But they were a cleaner casting and with less junk in the water jackets. They were used on
both the 327 and the 350. They came in both a big valve and a small valve. The big valve had
a min cylinder volume of 61.2cc.

As cast from the factory they flowed some were around 206in/141ex @ .500, toping out @ 209in/141ex @ .700.
With a little bit of port work they flowed some were around 238in/174ex @ .500, toping out @ 246in/185ex @ .700.
Now this is using Stan Weiss data http://users.erols.com/srweiss/tablehdc.htm#Chevy
The 292 was a much better head. Lee Shepard was getting 258in/230ex @ .500, topping out @ 274in/239ex @ .700.
Now the Patriot Freedom Series 190cc heads, according to Patriot flow 248in/181ex @ .500, topping out @ 260in/190ex @ .600.

Butch had asked how I'm doing with my set of Patriot 190's. Sorry to say no time slips yet.
Still working on the Black Beast. BTW she has been like a 90% restore. Sheet metal, interior besides running gear.
Butch also asked what I had to do to prepare these heads.
Head cost before shipping = $895.00
Machine shop plus Comp 987-16 springs = $350.00
Installed height 1.800"
Checked valve Stem O.D. .341"
Checked guide .343"
Checked guide clearance .002"
Checked valves for defects
Checked for head warpage
Lap all valves
Then the cost of a good set of ARP 7/16th. Studs.
For close to the same money I could have had a set of 195 AFR's.

 

[trmnatr]

My opinion is the 291 is one of the better camel/double hump heads out there