my 1st post i hope it is in the right forum. i have not messed with cars for 25 years or more so i am a Bit rusty. i have a 72 big block car. i want to go with a 454 stroker with a tunnel ram. the rear end gears are 411's and i can change that if needed. i want to use a 6 speed manul so i can play at low end and still go on short trips without running a high rpm, what traney would be best for me and fairly easy to set up. thanks for any info
? on using a 6 or 4 speed
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Not a ton of choices for a 6 speed. "Tranzilla" comes to mind. I think that's a T56? Came stock in late model Camaros? I think it has a .64 6th? Or maybe even taller ... Should be fine with 4.11s.
MAJOR floor pan modifications are necessary. But totally doable with a welder and some determination.
These guys will chime in if I'm mistaken. If you want a 4-speed, you will need to change out your rear gears to something around a 3.08. But one of the new Muncies, like an M22Z with a steep 2.98 first will make up for that. Still, it's not an overdrive. Just a standard 1:1 4th, hence the 3.08 gear. HTH. Bo.
MAJOR floor pan modifications are necessary. But totally doable with a welder and some determination.
These guys will chime in if I'm mistaken. If you want a 4-speed, you will need to change out your rear gears to something around a 3.08. But one of the new Muncies, like an M22Z with a steep 2.98 first will make up for that. Still, it's not an overdrive. Just a standard 1:1 4th, hence the 3.08 gear. HTH. Bo.
Not sure why you omitted 5 Speed O/D units. Richmond Gear makes an OD unit but the low gear is LOW @ 3.04. That will make your 4.11's "look" pretty deep in first gear. Richmond is currently in the process of selling off their gear division so getting a trans is a bit tough now because of issues with the sale. The trans is very very close to a bolt in with minor floor dimples required and a bit of easy surgery to the crossmember. Might be easier install than the 6 speed T-56 but the rear end issue (overall multiplication in low gear) still needs to be addressed in your mind before you pull the trigger.
4.11's are just too low or anything under 2.20 in first. People are tearing 3.08 and 2.73 rears apart left and right when in reality ratios like that are the a resource for those guys without O/D who don't want to hear the engine beating its brains out on the highway.
IMHO the 3.nn low that is in the Richmond or the 2.89 in the TKO mentioned below are just too steep for the 4.11. The OD in eather the RIchmond or the TKO works in high gear (with 4.11's) on the highway. Certainly it works. The issues of the first gear overerall multiplication are however HUGE.
Simple math here using the Muncie 2.20 as a bench mark and the TKO with your 4.11's.
2.89 x 4.11 = 11.89 (TKO with your 4.11's)
Close ratios Muncie with popular ratios from back in the day
2.20 x 4.11 = 9.02
2.20 x 4.56 = 10.32
2.20 x 4.88 = 10.73
2.20 x 5.13 = 11.28
As you can see 11.89 is > 11.28 so you would be looking at an overall ratio DEEPER than 5.13 would yield with a 2.20 Muncie. I don't know about you but that is unthinkable for me. As I do the numbers that 4.11 of yours is a dinosaur with almost any of the O/D transmissions that are out there now. It is up to you but that is my $.02.
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428 Posts
TKO 600 is a 5 speed but it might fit the bill for you. 2.84 1st gear and a couple choices on the 5th gear that would tame the 4.11's quite reasonably. The TKO 500 has an even lower 1st gear probably making your 1st gear pretty useless. Both TKO's would most likely require some minor tunnel mods.
TKO 600 with .62 od should work fine I run mine with 28" tire and 4.30 rear so unless you want to really run high mph it is fine, one thing to keep in mine if you go 5 or 6 spd od with high rear gear 3.08 or 3.31 etc if your engine has a big cam it wont like cruising below 2k ......... so do your homework .....a six speed would be usleless in my car does not like to cruise below 2200 ........ my first gear overall ratio is 12.12 works fine ............all about your engine combo .....if you build a real big mild cam stroker you wont want a deep gear but other combos want some gear
Wow...you are more tolerant than I would be, 2.84 x 4.30 = 11.21. Not sure I could stand that kind of low gear even with the tall tires. To each his own I guess.
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14,429 Posts
I run a 3.73 gear with 26" tall tire, this is the about the same overall gear ratio as a 4.11 with a 28" tall tire.
Behind a TKO 600 with a 2.87 first gear and .64 final gear. First gear does not have to be shifted out of quickly, it is actually very comfortable with both normal and spirited driving and the OD ratio is highway friendly.
Behind a TKO 600 with a 2.87 first gear and .64 final gear. First gear does not have to be shifted out of quickly, it is actually very comfortable with both normal and spirited driving and the OD ratio is highway friendly.
I can see an equivalent combo to 4.11's in low gear given an OD in high / 5th. I think that is a nice spot to be. For me at least, getting down to an effective combo that yields numbers past the area of 4.56 or 4.88 is more than this old man can tolerate any more.
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2,315 Posts
I'm runing a T-56 Magnum with a 2.66 1st gear, 4.56 rear gears and 30 inch diameter tires. 12.1 SLR. No issue at all. :noway: For my combo, this ratio works really well. :yes:
This setup has an incredible launch, but with a .63 6th gear will cruise at 70 mph at a little over 2200rpm. The best of both worlds. :thumbsup:
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2,315 Posts
Tim,
There's not alot of choices for a 6 speed swap. I went with a Tremec T-56 Magnum. Its not a real easy swap. It's pretty involved.
Here are a couple of links and some info on my Magnum install. I also included a parts list. Any questions let me know.
http://www.chevelles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=357712
http://s989.photobucket.com/user/714...86170226992478
List of parts:
T-56 Magnum Transmission $2800 (I paid $2375 with Summit discount )
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CMG-TUET11009/
Quicktime BH: $650 (This is when using oem z-bar linkage)
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/QTI-RM-6023PB/
This is the adjustable pivot ball I using in the bellhousing. It was too long, so I had to cut some length off. http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MCL-16908/
Clutch Fork:
http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS+Performan...60102/10002/-1).
Centerforce DFX Clutch and TO bearing: $400
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CTF-01148552/
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CTF-N1716/
Flywheel (already was running this with my Super T-10)
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CTF-700120/
T.O. Bearing collar: $200 (got it from here: http://www.ddperformance.com/ Specify LS style tranny with a standard GM TO bearing)
Cable-X Speedometer converter box: $300
http://www.abbott-tach.com/cablex.htm
1350 yoke: $150
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/IED-SY-C6-1350/
Shifter handle (I reused my Hurst stick that I had been using on my Super T-10)
Misc parts (electrical connectors (3), speedometer plug): $120 (I got some misc stuff from here) http://www.5speedtransmissions.com/6_speed_prices.html
Crossmember: Reused oem but modified (see photos in this thread)
Driveshaft: shorten about 6.5 inches, 2 new 1350 Spicer joints, balanced (local $125)
Possible exhaust mods (I have an X-pipe that needed moved back. Jeff modded this for me.)
Sheetmetal material for tunnel mods
I missed where the 4.30 came from?
The factory set-up in my '69BB was a wide ratio 4 speed with 4.10s. With 26" tires this was a great set-up for driving everywhere except the highway. It had tons of spunk off the line. 1st was short, but not terribly so. 2.52 x 4.10 = 10.33. I find an overall first gear ratio of about 9.5 up to 10.5 to be the sweet spot.
I really wanted to go to a T56 Magnum but it was out of my price range considering the extras on top of the modifications, I figured I's be pushing toward $5k. Even the 5 speeds add up. I opted to reduce the rear gear as interim step to 3.42s which is a compromise.
As someone said it is a balancing act. You need to look at the overall first gear ratio as well as the final drive ratio.
Exactly .... Same 12.1 SLR I run. Just arrive at it Little differently with 28" tire and 4.30 rear gear. no issues at all. My cruise rpm in the 5 spd is higher as I haver a smaller engine with big cam. So factor in what where your engine likes to cruise and how fast you want to cruise
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2,315 Posts
Bill,
Mine will cruise ok abit under 2k, but its happier when I'm over that 2k mark. When I put this combo together, I would have thought the cubes would have toned down my cam more than it did. It's not bad at all, but in the 1600 to 1800 range I get a little surging.
Apologies due. I muffed it. It came from a fat fingered typo.
thanks every one for the info, the 308? gears sound more practical , i will have to find them in a posse . as far as the 6 speed what would be the easiest and most reasonable $ way to go. going new i dont think i can do. i have not given up on the 6 speed, would the pre 98 work with minimal alteration
3.08 gears do you mean rear end ratio ?? If so that would be way too high for a typical 6 spd with dbl OD. You need to run your numbers thru a rpm calculator to pick the right rear geR for your engine and cruise rpm speed your etc Your 4.11 might be fine depending on how fast you want to cruise
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1,822 Posts
You cannot use an overdrive transmission or any final drive that will lug your engine using a tunnel ram. I know from experience with my Chevelle and 6 speed, tunnel ram inductions raise the useable low RPM band up around 3,000-3,500 RPM and up.
Nothing worse than having a 6 speed and running in 4th gear all the time.
Nothing worse than having a 6 speed and running in 4th gear all the time.
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1,822 Posts
The era with the tunnel ram had a 4.10:1 with the 4 speed and she started to work around 3,500. Those old Edelbrock big top tunnel rams look good but, it never liked running below 3,000 RPM. Don't forget a vacuum pump if you have power brakes.
Then I installed the 6 speed with a 3.42:1 differential and my final drive was 2.59:1 in 6th gear. The 6th gear had me running 2,000 RPM at 64 MPH and the tunnel ram was always surging and bucking the car. My easy fix was to run 5th gear which was my 3.42:1 final drive.
Then I installed the 6 speed with a 3.42:1 differential and my final drive was 2.59:1 in 6th gear. The 6th gear had me running 2,000 RPM at 64 MPH and the tunnel ram was always surging and bucking the car. My easy fix was to run 5th gear which was my 3.42:1 final drive.
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