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Discussion Starter #1
Let's define "Usable" as being something along these lines:

"The HP/Torque range actually transfered to the rear tires that
actually adds to the acceleration of the vehicle, utilizing common
(Chevelle) street-strip suspension components & street-sized
drag radials (295-60-15), beyond which additional HP/Torque would
be unusable & wasted, due to overpowering traction capabilities."

To confine parameters further, no power adders, electronic traction controllers, transbrakes, Lencos, Turbine axles, etcetera. ;)


("Wasted": HP/Torque going into tire spin, versus acceleration.)



Please, discuss! ------------- :yes:
 

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honestly, given the guidelines were working with.......350 horsepower will light them up at will(out of the hole) with a half decent stall speed and 3.55's.

Now if you're talking about overpowering the tires at almost any "reasonable speed"(not just the holeshot).......that number grows...but i still bet that number is somewhere between only 450-500 horsepower. Which, as you know.....most guys on this board are just getting started with 500 horsepower, concerning the typical engine builds on here!

Just as long as were thinking along the same lines when you say "range"...then this is a safe estimate, and maybe even a little on the high side...


Edit....I just re-read and saw "street sized DRAG RADIALS". Missed the drag radial part. My numbers were real street tires. Not just dot approved....but typical street rubber. Drag radials totally changes the mix, and some guys are doing big things on drag radials even with simple suspension. I dont have a dog in that fight,.....so couldnt tell you the reasonable limit.
 

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that sounds exactly like Todds (10secbu) combo.
N/A 582 I'm sure it makes over 1000hp.
stock suspension
295 drag radial
he just ran 8.56 @ 157
that thing is flyin!
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Ponder What Is The Most *Usable* HP/Torque?

honestly, given the guidelines were working with.......350 horsepower will light them up at will(out of the hole) with a half decent stall speed and 3.55's.

Now if you're talking about overpowering the tires at almost any "reasonable speed"(not just the holeshot).......that number grows...but i still bet that number is somewhere between only 450-500 horsepower.

Which, as you know.....most guys on this board are just getting started with 500 horsepower, concerning the typical engine builds on here!

Just as long as were thinking along the same lines...
We are...don't let the DRs throw you off...I've been running around
on Nitto DRs on the street so long, I can tell you they can & do work
against you at times on the street. A hot, grippy street performance
radial has whacked the DRs (minus burnout) several times, off the line.

Change the tire selection to 275-60-15, non-DR.

Think you were on this thread's thought-wave from the start, so let's
put it to the floor...

Do you think a Chevelle, as outfitted above, with 450-475 ft./lbs. TQ can get from Point A to Point B (1000"-1200')
on asphalt or concrete quicker than an identical Chevelle with 700 ft/lbs?
 

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With 255/55/17 (Nittos) and 330 RWHP I can light em up all through first and into second, TKO with 3.70 rear end (Ford 9"). It is a stiff road race suspension though. If you made a more drag friendly suspension you could use more HP.

I believe 350 HP is about it for a reasonable street car.

I do consider mine well balanced. I don't worry about throttle modulation in any but the tightest, lowest speed turns.

Ron
 
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Re: Ponder What Is The Most *Usable* HP/Torque?

We are...don't let the DRs throw you off...I've been running around
on Nitto DRs on the street so long, I can tell you they can & do work
against you at times on the street. A hot, grippy street performance
radial has whacked the DRs (minus burnout) several times, off the line.

Change the tire selection to 275-60-15, non-DR.

Think you were on this thread's thought-wave from the start, so let's
put it to the floor...

Do you think a Chevelle, as outfitted above, with 450-475 ft./lbs. TQ can get from Point A to Point B (1000"-1200')
on asphalt or concrete quicker than an identical Chevelle with 700 ft/lbs?
I'd say it depends on the driver's skill level. A clearly better driver could probably win with either car. But an equalizer would be a set of M/T ET Street Radials, with their 00 treadwear rating. Put those on both cars, and the 700 ft lb car will win everyday of the week and twice on Sunday. Just put a set of those on your car and be done with it.
 

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Re: Ponder What Is The Most *Usable* HP/Torque?

I'd say it depends on the driver's skill level. A clearly better driver could probably win with either car. But an equalizer would be a set of M/T ET Street Radials, with their 00 treadwear rating. Put those on both cars, and the 700 ft lb car will win everyday of the week and twice on Sunday. Just put a set of those on your car and be done with it.
EXACTLY.....get a set of those babies and put some power down....My car with 670lbs tq (crank) and/or 480lbs tq (rear wheel through a T400 and IRS) will dead hook from a 20 mph roll in 1st gear on a set of 255/60/15 ET Street radials. Now from a dead stop they still spin bad on the street (with full tire pressure and no heat)but if you back out and get back in it, they will recover....on regular BFGs the car is dangerous to drive/play in 1st gear PERIOD.

Tires are much cheaper then bodywork....
 

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Re: Ponder What Is The Most *Usable* HP/Torque?

Do you think a Chevelle, as outfitted above, with 450-475 ft./lbs. TQ can get from Point A to Point B (1000"-1200')
on asphalt or concrete quicker than an identical Chevelle with 700 ft/lbs?
Absolutely not. :noway: I don't know why some guys think this^ is true. Just because you cannot use full throttle on the car with more power under the hood does not mean that it will be slower off the line, nor anywhere for that matter. As the driver of such a car, you have to get to know how the powerband of the engine acts, and how much throttle you can give it while in any given gear and during any given rate of MPH with the tires you're using. It might be true that the more powerful car might not be able to walk away from the one with less power if the traction issues are that bad, but given the same suspension, vehice weight, front to rear weight bias, and same tires, there's no reason why the more powerful car should accelerate slower. if it does, it's because the nut behind the wheel just doesn't know how much throttle can be let loose in any given situation.

And on the street, that's something that the driver in question will have to learn about his car even with merely 475 HP under the hood. With exactly that much power in my last street car, I learned from experience that even with the drag radials that I used on the street (which gave me beter traction than any standard radial tire I tried) I could NOT hit full throttle in first gear on the street at all without breaking those tires loose.

But with the drag radials I COULD walk the car out of the hole with half throttle, and then hut full throttle as soon as I hit second gear and there wouldn't be any tire spin. And when I used standard type radial tires on that car, I couldn't even use full throttle in second gear, and had to keep it at hlf throttle until I got into third gear, which was then that I could use full throttle and still have the tires grip the road. You have to know your car, and know exactly what it can do, and what it can't do.

With some cars, you can't even use full throttle on the street at all without getting tire spin. You'll simply have to learn how much throttle you can give it wthout breaking the rubber loose.
 

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Why is it that these conversations are always confined to "no power adders"? Tq is Tq, it doesn't matter how you make it.
Yes, agreed. Perhaps it's just because the majority don't use power adders,(particularly in street applications) and maybe a lot of them have no experience with them. But your point is well taken. Atleast by myself. However, I am also one of those who has made use of a power adder in the past, for both street and strip.
 

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I assume that its simply because the way in which the power is delivered changes depending on whether its naturally aspirated or not(as well as what kind of supplimental induction).

a 400 horsepower 383 topped off with a 200 shot of nitrous to make 600 horsepower has a different looking torque curve than a naturally aspirated 600 horsepower 383 would in the earlier part of the power curve. As would a 600 horsepower turbo car vs a 600 horsepower roots blown car. This affects how the power hits the tires, and can skew things in a traction limited situation.


Keeping it NA just for the sake of argument simplifys the comparison.
 

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if you think its too much... its really not enough

aaron
 

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26 inch tall rear street tire...deep gears....torque between 400 and 430 foot lbs.....rolling burn outs...just about right for a daily driver or hot street car...

If you go with a taller tire...like a 28 incher..I'm going to say you need at least 450 torque to break the tires loose from a roll....

If you go t the big wheel route..you are going to need more power and gear.....
 

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Too many variables. But, I have found out a lot more about making a car drive on the street from all the visits to the track on Friday night street nights. Had a short discussion on this in another thread I started week or so ago. Basically came down to softening the rear suspension a controlled amount via springs/ shocks while adding in more anti-roll. Front suspension , pretty much same deal. Need good front-end rise. Nail it from a dead stop on 275-60 BFG TA's, yes it still spins them instantly. But, can now lay into it from a roll and car accelerates rather than just spinning the tires excessively. Subsequent to the other thread, I did purchase and install the matching AFCO 80/20 front shocks which made a noticeable improvement. Low tech by today's standards, but here's where my street suspension has settled in to.

FRT
Moog 5372 front springs , 289 rate
AFCO 1022, 80/20 shocks
1-1/8 solid sway bar (installed with rubber end link bushings, mounted loose).
REAR
Moog 5409 rear springs, 143 rate
AirLift airbags, set at 5 psi (minimum pressure)
AFCO 1035, 40/60 shocks
1" Hellwig 5800 solid rear sway bar.

Chassis dyno in '09 registered 420 hp in 90* air temps. Have since done a cam swap ,tuning and some other mods, would guess combo is closer to 450 RWHP now.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
1.) Why is it that these conversations are
always confined to "no power adders"?

2.) Tq is Tq, it doesn't matter how you make it.

1.) (Don't know about "always"?)

2.) It's not a question of how, but how much/when.

Power adders, e.g., Nitrous, S/C, turbos, can be modulated
regarding output. Nitrous & turbos can be staged/stepped
as to when, and over what period of time, their power arrives.

Which, in effect, is a form of add-on traction control in itself.
______________________________________________________
Parameters have to be added to thread-discussions, or else
heads begin to explode from "too many variables", and/or
you make it too likely the thread topic is lost to OT tangents.
______________________________________________________

There've been some great responses showing a lot of thoughtful
contemplation of the very basic & purposeful premise in the Original Post. --------:yes:

Keep 'em coming! :thumbsup:
 

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Discussion Starter #16
I assume that its simply because the way in which the power is delivered changes depending on whether its naturally aspirated or not(as well as what kind of supplimental induction).

a 400 horsepower 383 topped off with a 200 shot of nitrous to make 600 horsepower has a different looking torque curve than a naturally aspirated 600 horsepower 383 would in the earlier part of the power curve. As would a 600 horsepower turbo car vs a 600 horsepower roots blown car.

This affects how the power hits the tires, and can skew things in a traction limited situation.

Keeping it NA just for the sake of argument simplifys the comparison.
Dead-center on target! :hurray:
 

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All I can add is that with a decent suspension, 600 ft lbs is dangerous on street tires. Sort of weird but if I install the gas pedal, , it wont allow 100% WOT. Much better like that w/o slicks. Sort of a PITA with full throttle and street tries. Much prefer slicks and no gas pedal! Or no more than 500-550 ft lbs on street tire. NOT DRs or equiv, as I don't race on the street.

500 tops with street tire, maybe 700 tops with slicks and an oem like suspension. ??? Yet the 600 ft lbs does overcome my DR's, esp if I bang gears hard.
 

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All I can add is that with a decent suspension, 600 ft lbs is dangerous on street tires. Sort of weird but if I install the gas pedal, , it wont allow 100% WOT. Much better like that w/o slicks. Sort of a PITA with full throttle and street tries. Much prefer slicks and no gas pedal! Or no more than 500-550 ft lbs on street tire. NOT DRs or equiv, as I don't race on the street.

500 tops with street tire, maybe 700 tops with slicks and an oem like suspension. ??? Yet the 600 ft lbs does overcome my DR's, esp if I bang gears hard.
You do realize this thread was 10 yrs old...
 

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I found out this year when switching to radial slicks what a poor track prep does with a bunch of torque, spin city. When the car dead hooks it runs great times.
 
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