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CNC BLOCKS N/E said:
check out this link on oil consumption and torque plates as I have found substantial gains in honing with plates as far as power and torque, ring seal and blow by issues.

http://www.chevytalk.org/threads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/1227305/an/0/page/0#1227305[/QUOTE]
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Interesting post???

I haven't done a performance engine without a torque plate in at least 20 years, probably longer & there are a number of stock blocks I will not even do in my shop if the owner won't pay for torque plate honing.
While I will agree that some blocks hardly move, anyone who thinks you don't need a plate on some blocks & especially on a stock 400 block should probably get another occupation in my opinion. :sad:
On 400's I have seen some cylinders not move enough to measure & others in the same block move upwards of .003,,,,

I recently redid a members 400 block on here that was done without a torque plate & the damn stones were not even hitting in spots.
You could see the difference in wear in the bores right at the bolts where the crosshatch was almost completely gone & "holes" in the pattern alongside these where it looked like the rings never touched.
Try running the GM 4cyl iron duke without using a torque plate or a 2.3L Ford if you want to see bad.
For a stock engine check out the 2.8L GM V6 as a real good example,,, there are lots of others but these come to mind as real good examples,,,
 

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Wolfplace said:
CNC BLOCKS N/E said:
check out this link on oil consumption and torque plates as I have found substantial gains in honing with plates as far as power and torque, ring seal and blow by issues.

http://www.chevytalk.org/threads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/1227305/an/0/page/0#1227305[/QUOTE]
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Interesting post???

I haven't done a performance engine without a torque plate in at least 20 years, probably longer & there are a number of stock blocks I will not even do in my shop if the owner won't pay for torque plate honing.
While I will agree that some blocks hardly move, anyone who thinks you don't need a plate on some blocks & especially on a stock 400 block should probably get another occupation in my opinion. :sad:
On 400's I have seen some cylinders not move enough to measure & others in the same block move upwards of .003,,,,

I recently redid a members 400 block on here that was done without a torque plate & the damn stones were not even hitting in spots.
You could see the difference in wear in the bores right at the bolts where the crosshatch was almost completely gone & "holes" in the pattern alongside these where it looked like the rings never touched.
Try running the GM 4cyl iron duke without using a torque plate or a 2.3L Ford if you want to see bad.
For a stock engine check out the 2.8L GM V6 as a real good example,,, there are lots of others but these come to mind as real good examples,,,
Hey Mike, before the 20 years ago, did you have oil consumption problems, I doubt it. The factory never used plates years ago, and again, I'll stick to my statement, "the block mentioned in the post has got other problems", more likely than not, it's probably seen some extremely high temps or something else. When chasing HP, as we are now, you "plate" it. Thanks, Gary in N.Y.
 

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What's interesting is we find similiar characteristics in metal valves used on the power and process industry. The effects of thermal cycling play havoc on tolerances. There exists a cycle life for steel and iron components used in high temp process where eventually they will have to be replaced.

The metal just gets to the point that is has been cycled so much that you are changing the temper of it, effectively lowering the yield point of the metal. I would assume the same holds true for CI cylinder blocks. The only way to validate this (unforetunately) is to get a specimin from the same pour and perform destructive analysis (tensile and yield) tests when new, then at some point perform tensile and yield tests at a much later date on the same heat lot (ie - block is at the end of it's cycle and is now junk). My experience in metals is posing a preemptive conclusion though - the metal will have a lower yield with correlation to the how hot it got.
 

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CNC BLOCKS N/E said:
Mike I had Eric68 wondering how the factory did there blocks as I didn't realyy have a good anser on that one.
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Don't think there is an "across the board" answer. My understanding is there are some blocks that are done with plates which I would assume are positioned & tightened automatically but this is just an assumption.
I am aware that a lot of places don't use plates & get away with it but most are production facilities & even these use plates on some blocks.

AERA has had a list of recommended blocks since 1988 (SPB164) that should be done with plates & they seem to be pretty reliable when it comes to information,,,

Thing is after bolting plates to blocks & measuring them it just scares hell out of me to not use them as not all blocks or bores in the same block act the same,,,
With a BowTie, Dart,, etc in the majority of cases they don't move enough to measure & in a lot of cases stock 350's & 454's don't move much either but this in my opinion at least is no excuse not to use one,,,

Hell, call me anal but I gotta agree completely with you on plates,, it just doesn't take that much more time to do it correctly ;)

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Gary,
Oil issues aside, when you make a statement like this & it is a direct quote

"Honing without a block plate will NOT cause oil burning. We've done 'em all. With and without, makes no difference whatsoever, you wont even measure a power difference on the dyno! It's a better job with the plate, but if you're burning oil you've got "deeper" problems. Thanks, Gary in N.Y.
PS My sons 400 SB made 410hp without a plate and ran 8 years without any problems. Dyno tested, just to see!
using a plate doesn't make a difference "


I just ain't gonna agree with it.

And yes, in some cases I had oil issues for sometimes up to 1000 miles as did GM, Ford, Chry,, et al,, & the standard answer was & still is in a lot of cases is "it ain't broken in yet"
Was it because of lack of using plates,, this I can't answer. All I know is I prefer a round cylinder especially at the top.

Today at least in my opinion rings in most cases are damn near broken in on the starter & part of the reason again in my opinion is from using plates.

The rings of today in general have less radial tension, less thickness & load the cylinders less so they are less forgiving of surface finish & bore geometry,,,, according to the people who make them :)
 

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Carl,

I agree with you totally.
Gary,
Try doing a 4.6 Ford, or a LS1 without them, you will change your mind real quick if you measure one of those two without a plate on them. It does depend on the engine. If you are doing a lot of older heavy casting blocks, it probably wont matter a bit. I have checked a couple of Dart and Worl blocks before and after putting the plate on and its probably a waste of time on them, but I have the plates so why not. I bought the LS1 and the 4.6 Ford plates last year and boy do those blocks move around when you put the plate on. Anything you can do to get a rounder cylinder is worthwhile in my opinion. Would I do it on a stock 350 rebuild ... probably not. On a performance engine ... you bet I will.
 

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BillK said:
Carl,

I agree with you totally.
Gary,
Try doing a 4.6 Ford, or a LS1 without them, you will change your mind real quick if you measure one of those two without a plate on them. It does depend on the engine. If you are doing a lot of older heavy casting blocks, it probably wont matter a bit. I have checked a couple of Dart and Worl blocks before and after putting the plate on and its probably a waste of time on them, but I have the plates so why not. I bought the LS1 and the 4.6 Ford plates last year and boy do those blocks move around when you put the plate on. Anything you can do to get a rounder cylinder is worthwhile in my opinion. Would I do it on a stock 350 rebuild ... probably not. On a performance engine ... you bet I will.
Hi Bill, I haven't got an inkling of a clue what "4.6 Ford" is, nor an LS1?
Some of the motors you guys see up here are built on "test" platforms, we actually do some "testing" for warehouses. But it gives us an opportunity for comparison purposes. We've just finished 2 BB's (GM Bow-Ties S/Decks), for our own tests, one on purpose with no block plate, absolutely no porting on the heads, not even gasket match or bowls, both are well into high 700HP range, near 785 and run fine. Now if you're going to ask me would the plate make a difference here? I can't answer 100%, but an educated guess would be "I highly doubt it". This one engine (without the plate) is on the shelf and probably will lay around for testing only. I don't even know what a
"vortec" head is. To us over here, none of the above (4.6, LS1, or vortec) is of any importance. As I've stated a while back, 23 degree heads are gonna be in the "history-books" soon. When you can build an 18 degree SB to make 736HP on 93, we see a new direction over the horizon. Years ago (and still), the quality of the machine work coming from our shop was good enough for Bill Mitchell Sr. (owner of "World Products") to run .5/.6+ under the index in a C/EA racecar. He never stopped working with us at that time. Thanks, Gary in N.Y.
PS As I said, we've got well over 100 years of talent between 3 people.
 

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Install a deck plate with the same style gasket that will be installed on the motor. Hone cylinder walls to mirror finish(no cross hatch & perfectly round holes). Remove deck plate, top 1" of holes will be sometimes be as much as .001-.0015" out of round. If you are using cast pistons with .0015" clearance sometimes the skirt is even tight in the holes. Rings will seat perfectly because the holes are round with the heads on the block. Assemble the the short block and see how easy the rotating assembly turns over with the smooth walls-slick. You must use a deck plate/w gasket to polish the holes to mirror finish. Torque heads on and then the cylinders are magically round again. The difference in power & longevity is substantial. If you do not use a deck plate you have to leave walls rough(crosshatch) so the rings can gradually wear the cylinders round. I have found this on SB & short deck BB factory blocks, others with thicker decks(aftermarket) don't distort as much. That's why I use a deck plate.
 

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CNC BLOCKS N/E said:
Gary do you know Rich from PCHS as he is from Long Island as well and I know he does a lot with Bill Mitchell as I got him the deal on his HAAS CNC machine last fall.
Hi Carl, I know almost everyone over here. Mitchell and I haven't been in touch for some time now, we use to see him almost every day, but I'm going back years ago. Forget Bill M. for a minute, he was/is a "top-notch" race engine builder years ago and, in fact he use to refer to us, this includes you guys (machinists), as "metalpushers". I thought this was kind of ironic due the fact we were able to "push" his metal to the right spots. But back to many of the "others" here on L.I., you can give almost all of 'em the best "top-of-the-line, easiest to use, maintenance-free" equipment available, and not many of THESE guys could even get a car to "fall out of a tree". I've seen "first-hand" a couple of "fresh" engines through here that are still here in the junk pile. This is no exaggeration. We actually test for other "builders" over here and you'd be "shocked" at the results, literally. I'm going to give you
this one example this past week, only cause it's fresh in my mind. The 540 pump-gasser we just delivered made 741HP at 6300RPM, you can find it up here as ("The C.I. Pro-Topline-TEST"), as soon as that one was bolted off still warm, the same size BB went on, 540 C.I., 13:1+ C.R., solid roller, Brodix Alloys, 4500 Holley, barely broke 700HP. So I hope you don't miss the point here. A lot of people out there are NOT getting what they're paying for, period. Most of the others don't want their customer there on inital "tests", this tells me much. This explains why we have an 8/12 week backlog. Please don't take this as "bragging", as I've posted before, "ego-trip" days are long gone. My personal goal at this point in my life is (not really having money issues) try to give the people their moneys-worth. We've all been there.
Thanks, Gary in N.Y.
PS One customer a while back I spoke to behind the scenes had a similar ass'y as we had built (732HP/706TQ), same HP but his torque numbers were horrible, he told me if had ported the heads more it would be better, not so says I, we proved it with the ("TEST"), 741HP/661TQ. If I had used 320 CC runners instead of 360's, we would have over 700TQ instead. Customer still "ecstatic" with the delivered numbers, but it bothered me. Problem was couldn't get the heads in "iron". On a final note here, I don't really use Mitchell's stuff, as I personally haven't been able to get the "numbers" I need.
I just did a World block and was dissappointed that it was "missing" any inside head bolt holes. I think it's tough trying to seal up 16.2:1 Compression without them. The new "Bow-Ties" (either 1 or 2 Pc. rear seal) are excellent and have 4 inner holes on each side for a total of eight, and I get them right from the dealer at a fair price. In response to "ol66ss" above, if you have "polished" bores, you'd better make sure you have "gas-holes" to go along.
 

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Wolfplace said:
=
Don't think there is an "across the board" answer. My understanding is there are some blocks that are done with plates which I would assume are positioned & tightened automatically but this is just an assumption.
I am aware that a lot of places don't use plates & get away with it but most are production facilities & even these use plates on some blocks.

AERA has had a list of recommended blocks since 1988 (SPB164) that should be done with plates & they seem to be pretty reliable when it comes to information,,,

Thing is after bolting plates to blocks & measuring them it just scares hell out of me to not use them as not all blocks or bores in the same block act the same,,,
With a BowTie, Dart,, etc in the majority of cases they don't move enough to measure & in a lot of cases stock 350's & 454's don't move much either but this in my opinion at least is no excuse not to use one,,,

Hell, call me anal but I gotta agree completely with you on plates,, it just doesn't take that much more time to do it correctly ;)

========
Gary,
Oil issues aside, when you make a statement like this & it is a direct quote

"Honing without a block plate will NOT cause oil burning. We've done 'em all. With and without, makes no difference whatsoever, you wont even measure a power difference on the dyno! It's a better job with the plate, but if you're burning oil you've got "deeper" problems. Thanks, Gary in N.Y.
PS My sons 400 SB made 410hp without a plate and ran 8 years without any problems. Dyno tested, just to see!
using a plate doesn't make a difference "


I just ain't gonna agree with it.

And yes, in some cases I had oil issues for sometimes up to 1000 miles as did GM, Ford, Chry,, et al,, & the standard answer was & still is in a lot of cases is "it ain't broken in yet"
Was it because of lack of using plates,, this I can't answer. All I know is I prefer a round cylinder especially at the top.

Today at least in my opinion rings in most cases are damn near broken in on the starter & part of the reason again in my opinion is from using plates.

The rings of today in general have less radial tension, less thickness & load the cylinders less so they are less forgiving of surface finish & bore geometry,,,, according to the people who make them :)
Hi Wolfy, I agree, the engines of today maintain their ring seal a whole lot longer than any of my engines from the sixties and seventies so i have to believe the cylinder walls are rounder thus helping the rings live longer. The oils may have improved a great deal also. As you said it sure cant hurt. I heard of one guy who was having to rebuild a Mitsubishi four cylinder every 50K miles. After the third overhaul, they overbored the engine and used torque plates for the final honing process. They reported the engine now has over 300K miles and still has good ring seal and no excessive oil usage. My last Toyota has over 288K without any signs of excess wear, so i have to assume they use plates at the factory, it would be interesting to know for sure.
 

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how do you know the block has been done with torque plates?

I mean you go to the shop and ask them to do it, but how do you know it has been done when you get the thing back and it's either a short block or a long block.

Is it one of those things you have to trust the builder.

(This is not pointing the fingure at anybody what so ever, but it seems to be one of those things you could end up paying for and never really getting it done unless you stand right there.)
 

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I think I read somewhere that you can put a piston ring into the cylinder, then bolt the heads on (but not torqued. No rotating assembly in place, no pan, etc, so you can look up the bore.) and shine a light from the top down (intake and exhaust ports I guess, but you'd need to not have valves on the head?).

Look at the light pattern around the outside of the ring. Torque down the head (with used gasket I guess) and look at the light pattern again. With the head torqued down, I think there should be a lot less light shining through from around the ring.

Maybe this doesn't work though, its just something that I read about, never tried it myself.
 

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BLT4FN said:
how do you know the block has been done with torque plates?

I mean you go to the shop and ask them to do it, but how do you know it has been done when you get the thing back and it's either a short block or a long block.

Is it one of those things you have to trust the builder.

(This is not pointing the fingure at anybody what so ever, but it seems to be one of those things you could end up paying for and never really getting it done unless you stand right there.)
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There really is no reliable way to tell if a torque plate has been used in most blocks except for bolting another one or a head on & remeasuring the bores & this is not completely reliable as some blocks or bores in the same block will not move enough to measure & some will,,,

All I can tell you is there are very few if any true performance machine shops I know of that are going to do this.
Think about it,,, if I have the plate & I know there is a good chance it is going to do a better job why the hell wouldn't I use it?
If you are going to a shop you have that little faith in my suggestion is to find another shop.
Also, (& again just in my opinion) any shop that won't let you see their facility & equipment, (along with their assortment of torque plates) ask questions, or even watch as a job is being preformed would make me very nervous.
Assuming of course you don't make a pain in the ass out of yourself :D

Seriously, you will find, at least in my opinion that most true performance shops are proud of the work they do & are more than happy to "give you the tour"

Torque plates are not real cheap, about $250 ea & up & I personally have about $4000 in different plates & I did not buy them to use as paperweights :D
 

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thanks Mike.

The reason for asking was the 3 big shops around here seem to all have different ideas on things,and how they do bussiness, so I was just wondering if it was an easy thing to check.

As far as I know mine has never been done and it has never been offered (from any of them). That being said it is not a race motor or a mountain motor just a little warmed over (+ .30).Hence from what I have read above they were probably right in not offering it.
 

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Just thought I would throw in a picture. This Gen VI 454 was plate honed .005 over and fitted with JE +.005 pistons. It was then run 80 hrs in a boat with a BM 250 blower with 5 pounds boost. Today he had me hone it and did not want to use the plates. You can plainly see on the bore near the center head bolt holes where the hone did not touch the bore. This is a pretty visual example that bores do distort when torqued.
 

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The pattern as I can tell from the picture, which may be a little misleading, appears to be only around a single bolt hole. When you "plate" a "flimsy" casting like the block here, you'll get a similar "pattern" around ALL head bolt threads, not an isolated one. It's interesting that the above pattern is only at the exhaust exit point in the bore and seems to be prevalent in all the bores, even though I only see a pair. I would suspect you're looking at a different problem here. Whenever a customer walks in by us, the first thing we do is place those blocks near the "dumpster". Aside from the old #624 SB heads, I would say this is the next worse casting ever out of G.M. Thanks, Gary in N.Y.
PS It also appears the ring travel is below the distortion, as I said, pictures sometimes don't tell complete truths. I built one "marine" application with that casting, it was both the first and last at the same time.
 

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GOSFAST said:
The pattern as I can tell from the picture, which may be a little misleading, appears to be only around a single bolt hole. When you "plate" a "flimsy" casting like the block here, you'll get a similar "pattern" around ALL head bolt threads, not an isolated one. It's interesting that the above pattern is only at the exhaust exit point in the bore and seems to be prevalent in all the bores, even though I only see a pair. I would suspect you're looking at a different problem here. Whenever a customer walks in by us, the first thing we do is place those blocks near the "dumpster". Aside from the old #624 SB heads, I would say this is the next worse casting ever out of G.M. Thanks, Gary in N.Y.
PS It also appears the ring travel is below the distortion, as I said, pictures sometimes don't tell complete truths. I built one "marine" application with that casting, it was both the first and last at the same time.
Gary

You should look at the piston that came out of that block as you can see the blowby down to the oil control rings and remember this engine had only 3200 miles on it. And I can tell your still not a believer in plate honing as I think you are the only one HERE.

You should go back and reread all these post to get a better understanding of what people are saying here.
 
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