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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Has any one seen this video put out by Comp Cams.
I'm asking because many here have said the Comp Cams Camshaft Lube isn't a very good product. It's to runny and drips off the camshaft if left sitting for any length of time. I would have to agree. That's what it was doing when I used it.
But I see Keith Dorton has added a new twist to this problem by spraying both the camshaft and lifters with Graphite, before applying the Comp Cam Lube.

Whats your take on this?
Here's a video demonstrating this. Includes some very good tips for camshaft survival.
http://s572.photobucket.com/albums/ss168/bigred406/?action=view&current=keithdorton_CompCams.flv
 

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Great video but credit to Scott Wheaton on here. He has covered all of that and 10X more and offers it to anyone who is planning on a Flat Tappet break cam. I like the graphite spray idea, but would still rather use the moly based Crane or othe type of cam lube break in material.
 

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Id rather do what inormally do and suggest and thats gently pour (as to to wash off any assembly lube) some zddp enriched gm eos/crane superlube/new lucas tb zinc over cam and lifters just prior to installing the intake .

That way the cam lobes and lifters are bathed in a nice rich thich bath of zddp enriched product ontop of the grey type assembly lube thats should already be there /under the eos etc that was just applied.

BTW,i had a fellow t/c'r email me a while back stating he was gald he read that comp red lube was no good because he was in proecess of installing the cam and caught it prior to installing timing cover.

He said he installed the cam/lifters with comps red assembly approx 2 days prior and when he removed the cam to reapply the better grey paste type asembly lube most of the red comp lube had run off accept for a couple of drops left that formed on the bottom/base circle of a couple lobes,thats all that was left of the red comp lube,the stuff is crap unless maybe you istall the cam on a dyno motor and fire it up 20 mins later.

Also,just to recap when i had comps new oil additive/cam breakin lube tested it cam out extreemly low on zinc ,it had 950ppm zinc when for example GM EOS had approx 6,000ppm zddp and gm's eos isnt the highest anynore either.

So both the comp assembly lube & breakin lube for crankcase are crap and along with that last time i check comp still rec shell roteall 15w-40 for breakin too. As of 1/2007/going on 3yrs ago the shell rotella reuced the zddp to too low of a lvl to properly protect flat tappet cams anymore at only 1050ppm zddp . I like to see at least 1300-1400ppm at a min for milder cams and 1500-1600ppm + zddp for hotter cams.

So all 3 products comp rec's for breaking in their perf flat tappet cam are all low in zddp by a long shot esp for breakin. It seem's like they have their heads in the wrong place or is it simply they dont give a hoot about the hi perf flat tappet cam market anymore,thats the question.

Your somewhat destined to have an eventual cam failure using comps breakin products but they have just enough zddp that i think you could get away with very mild cam/mild spring rates with cam failure .

Even with a hotter cam you could very likely make it thru breakin esp if you removed inner springs but the cams service life will be significantly reduced post breakin due to the lower zddp lvl used for breakin and post breakin too. Thats esp true if still running comps oil additive for protection post breakin along with shells rotella 15w-40 or an over the counter SM rated oil that typically has 800ppm zddp OR LESS.

Scott
 

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The way I've generally found things like that to work, is that they go together as a complete system.... i.e. you wouldn't want to use one technique from say Keith Dorton, and some other part of the procedure from say Scott, and some other part from say me, because those types of things (steps in a process) tend to all complement each other.

I know people who build motors and do things I would NEVER IN A THOUSAND YEARS do. What they do is the polar opposite of what I do. Yet, their finished product is competitive and successful, same as mine. But I don't think you could mix and match process steps, however good each step might seem on its own, and get the same result, if other steps that had some kind of dependency, were done differently.

That said, if somebody like Keith Dorton gets that set of procedures to work on a large professional scale in as severe a test as a sanctioned touring racing series, then that's pretty hard to argue with. It's successful, period. But to just adopt some one part of what he does, without doing the whole process identically, might be REAL unpredictable.

One thing about KD's engines, is that they probably don't sit around very long between assembly and run-in... in which case, the Comp lube might be GREAT. But if you don't have that, i.e. if in your particular case a few weeks or even months elapses between build and run-in, you might get an unpleasant surprise. However if your motors get put together and immediately fired, then his techniques might apply to yours as well. No mention is made of that in the video.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
The way I've generally found things like that to work, is that they go together as a complete system.... i.e. you wouldn't want to use one technique from say Keith Dorton, and some other part of the procedure from say Scott, and some other part from say me, because those types of things (steps in a process) tend to all complement each other.

I know people who build motors and do things I would NEVER IN A THOUSAND YEARS do. What they do is the polar opposite of what I do. Yet, their finished product is competitive and successful, same as mine. But I don't think you could mix and match process steps, however good each step might seem on its own, and get the same result, if other steps that had some kind of dependency, were done differently.

That said, if somebody like Keith Dorton gets that set of procedures to work on a large professional scale in as severe a test as a sanctioned touring racing series, then that's pretty hard to argue with. It's successful, period. But to just adopt some one part of what he does, without doing the whole process identically, might be REAL unpredictable.

One thing about KD's engines, is that they probably don't sit around very long between assembly and run-in... in which case, the Comp lube might be GREAT. But if you don't have that, i.e. if in your particular case a few weeks or even months elapses between build and run-in, you might get an unpleasant surprise. However if your motors get put together and immediately fired, then his techniques might apply to yours as well. No mention is made of that in the video.
All very good points. Thank you...
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Great video but credit to Scott Wheaton on here. He has covered all of that and 10X more and offers it to anyone who is planning on a Flat Tappet break cam. I like the graphite spray idea, but would still rather use the moly based Crane or othe type of cam lube break in material.
I used Edelbrocks RED paste in a little plastic case. On the bottom side of my lifters because the short block sat a few months before I finished building it. I also poured the EOS into the engine valley onto the cam and lifters. So far so good.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Id rather do what inormally do and suggest and thats gently pour (as to to wash off any assembly lube) some zddp enriched gm eos/crane superlube/new lucas tb zinc over cam and lifters just prior to installing the intake .

That way the cam lobes and lifters are bathed in a nice rich thich bath of zddp enriched product ontop of the grey type assembly lube thats should already be there /under the eos etc that was just applied.

BTW,i had a fellow t/c'r email me a while back stating he was gald he read that comp red lube was no good because he was in proecess of installing the cam and caught it prior to installing timing cover.

He said he installed the cam/lifters with comps red assembly approx 2 days prior and when he removed the cam to reapply the better grey paste type asembly lube most of the red comp lube had run off accept for a couple of drops left that formed on the bottom/base circle of a couple lobes,thats all that was left of the red comp lube,the stuff is crap unless maybe you istall the cam on a dyno motor and fire it up 20 mins later.

Also,just to recap when i had comps new oil additive/cam breakin lube tested it cam out extreemly low on zinc ,it had 950ppm zinc when for example GM EOS had approx 6,000ppm zddp and gm's eos isnt the highest anynore either.

So both the comp assembly lube & breakin lube for crankcase are crap and along with that last time i check comp still rec shell roteall 15w-40 for breakin too. As of 1/2007/going on 3yrs ago the shell rotella reuced the zddp to too low of a lvl to properly protect flat tappet cams anymore at only 1050ppm zddp . I like to see at least 1300-1400ppm at a min for milder cams and 1500-1600ppm + zddp for hotter cams.

So all 3 products comp rec's for breaking in their perf flat tappet cam are all low in zddp by a long shot esp for breakin. It seem's like they have their heads in the wrong place or is it simply they dont give a hoot about the hi perf flat tappet cam market anymore,thats the question.

Your somewhat destined to have an eventual cam failure using comps breakin products but they have just enough zddp that i think you could get away with very mild cam/mild spring rates with cam failure .

Even with a hotter cam you could very likely make it thru breakin esp if you removed inner springs but the cams service life will be significantly reduced post breakin due to the lower zddp lvl used for breakin and post breakin too. Thats esp true if still running comps oil additive for protection post breakin along with shells rotella 15w-40 or an over the counter SM rated oil that typically has 800ppm zddp OR LESS.

Scott
A company the size of Comp Cams could do a lot more than they do if they were really interested in looking after these problems.
 

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MIKE,I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU .
===========================================

WELL,I HAVE A LITTLE DIFFERENT TAKE ON IT WHEN IT COMES TO THE COMP VIDEO AND HERE'S WHY.

YOUR AVG PERSON BUYING A FLAT TAPPET CAM FROM COMP BUILDING A MOTOR LIKE THE MAJORITY OF US HERE IN TEAM CHEVELLE OR YOUR AVG GUY ACCOSS THE USA BUIYNG A COMP CAM TO INSTALL DOESN'T T HAVE THIER MOTOR ON A DYNO READY TO FIRE IN UNDER AN HR POST CAM INSTALL WHICH IS THE ONLY PLACE COMPS RED ASSEMBLY LUBE WOULD STAY PUT LONG ENOUGH TO SAFELY USE IMHO.

THATS WHY I KEEP BASHING COMPS ASSEMBLY LUBE BECAUSE THE MARJORITY OF PEOPLE USING IT WILL NOT BE FIRING UP THE MOTOR IN LESS 1 HR POST CAM/LIFTER INSTALL. I HAVE PESONALLY SEEN IT RUN/DRAIN OFF A CAM IN LITTERALLY A COUPLE HRS IN 70-75 DEG TEMPS. NOT GOOD IMHO AND CANT FIGURE OUT WHY THEY CONTINUE TO INCLUDE THAT NG THIN RED ASSEMBLY LUBE IN THEIR CAM/LIFTER KITS.

OPPS,SORRY ABOUT THOSE DANG CAPS AGAIN/LOL!!

BTW,comp has a new breakin oil adveritsed as containing all the required additives for successful cam/lifter breakin without any additonal oil additives for zddp boost.

I have no idea who pkg'd it for comp or what its zddp/detergent/overall #'s are so dont know if its any better then comps other additive/breakin products for flat tappet cams.

But from the quality of comps current red assembly lube and the extreem low zinc lvl in comps breakin oil additive at only 900ppm(EOS is 6,000ppm) when i had it tested i would not use that new breakin oil untill its tested to ensure it has proper high zddp lvls for breakin.

There are plenty of proven quality breakin oils avail like Joe Gibbs/RP/Redline/etc that i would use before trusting a new motor to comps new breakin oil after what i have seen with comp's poor quality red assembly lube and low zinc breakin oil additive that has gone on for a long time now. Thats not to metion comp not seeming to be up to speed enough on the oil/zddp situation in general to get away from the shell rotella for flat tappet cam & lifter breakin which has had a poor zddp lvl since 1/2007 approaching 3 yrs ago.

Maybe now that comp has a new breakin oil they will get away from the marginal at best CJ rated rotella oil for flat tappet cam/lifter cam breakin.

I had Chevrons delo & shell rotella both in new CJ formula in 15w-40 tested and the shell was 1050ppm zddp and the delo was 1300ppm zddp . The chevron site states thier newer CJ delo oil had 1300ppm zddp & the test results matched right on the money but shell would not tell me the zddp lvl in thier reformulated CJ rotella 15w-40 when i asked and thw shell oil is what comp's been rec for flat tappet cam breakin for some yrs now.

But as i already stated i felt if using the rotella/comps breakin additive/ & comps red assmebly lube would not by any means always result in a bad cam durring breakin or just post breakin esp with mild cam. Thats because even though comp's oil additive and rotella are both low on zddp its still sig better then using an over the counter SM oil with only 650-800ppm zddp and no oil additive at all for breakin which would be a recipe for disaster esp with w perf cam running higher spring rates. But if a hotter perf cam was broken in using those comp products & shell oil it could still make it past breakin on the marginal zddp lvls oil/lube but would likely have a sig shorter then normal service life esp if running comps oil additive post breakin for ongoing protection too.

Dont get me wrong,i dont have anything against comp in general ,I have used comp products for yrs and have have a mld comp hyd flat tappet perf cam in my bbc for alomost 9 yrs now. But i just cant belive how slack/lacksidazical comp seem's to be when they have experienced plenty of flat tappet cam failures in the past 3-4 yrs and still sell the red aseembly lube & low zinc oil additive for flat tappet cam/lifter breakin what fools!!!!!!!!

It seems to me comp has been somewhat out of touch/too slow to respond to the zddp issues not to mention the assembly lube and oil additive issue.

Mike/a fellow tc'r ran a survey a while back where he asked how many people broke in thier flat tappet perf cams with or without the rec/proper zddp produst/assembly lube which was interesting .

What came out of that survey when i crunched the #'s was that your a mnimum of 3x more likey to have a flat tappet cam failure when not running proper good quality assembly lube that stays put & oil/oil additives with proper zddp lvl's for breakin and for ongoing protection post breakin too. This data was obtained from approx 80 cam/lifter installs which isnt a larg database but it was quickly evident that using a quality assembly lube and zddp rich oil/oil additive products made a significant difference in having a succeseefull cam /lifter breakin and normall service life post breakin too.

And latstly,theres a big difference when breakin in and testing cams/lubes etc on a dyno where you can keep the rpms up well for good oiling all the time vs very different run conditions on the street. On the street motors see excessive idling in traffic at low idle rpms (esp with auto trans)that in result sig less oil pressure and less oiling from lifter bores along with sig less oil slig oiling of cam from the crank at low rpm idle rpm too that can really affect flat tappet cam life/longevity.

To me this comp video is kinda like a few yrs back when this zddp issue really blew up when GM stated they ran extensive tetsing of low zddp SM rated oils in V6 flat tappet cam motors on dynos and had no issues,passed all testing.

Ito me i's not real world testing when GM comparied a low perf flat tappet camd v6 dyno mule with sign lower spring rates to people like many of us that are unning bbcs with sig higher 300-400+lb spring rates running much more agressive lobe design high perf flat tappet cams . And thats not to mention our cams not on a dyno see plenty of low rpm idle time on the street at lower oil pressure with reduced oiling fro lifter bores & esp fless oiling from crank oil sling along with motors bieng heat soaked in traffic in the summer heat unlike a motor on a dyno that kept nice & cool not seeing much low rpm idle time at all like in gear with auto trans too,to To me GM was comparing apples to oranges and in this case meaning yes comp had good results when installing & breaking in flat tappet cams by an expert person using comps marginal assembly lube/oil additive products in a controlled environment with best tools /conditions wich is ust not realisitic or the reality of what most cam/lifter installs are like in most cases like we see here in t/chevelle.That's why comps video isnt really that valid to me in a completely different environment with best possible conditions then the majority of us will ever have to do a cam change in or build an engine in too.

Scott
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
On a side note does the higher zddp lvls pose a bigger problem for the environment? I guess I'm looking for a underlining conspiracy theory. Between Environmentalists and the N. American governments to rid N. America of what they conceive as major polluters. Both from a over rich zddp oil and old non-computerized power plants. Right up there with the cash for clunker deals.

Because there is plenty of information about flat camshafts from people like your self and the hundreds if not thousands of other forms/sources. And GM playing the apple to oranges game.:rolleyes:
Just a thought....
 

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On a side note does the higher zddp lvls pose a bigger problem for the environment? ...
It contaminates the platinum in catalytic converers and makes them less efficient after 100K miles, or so I have heard.
 
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