[TK-70]

Ok, I've recently discovered that in the '70 I recently purchased that my M21 is actually an M20, and my 12-bolt 4.11 posi is a 3.31 non-posi (sigh).
Any estimates on how much I just lost in delta $$$?
(M21 vs M20 = $___ difference?)
(4.11 posi versus 3.31 non-posi = $___?)
Just trying to assess the damages... Thanks, TK (ps: I'm in the northeast, thanks again)

 

[TH]

The difference between an M20 and M21 is only about a hundred bucks.

The 12 bolt difference is, well, more. It is a 12 bolt though, correct? It's a good starting point for upgrades.

If you ever need to know in the future, just jack the car up and turn one rear wheel. If the other turns in the opposite direction then it's an open rear. If it turns in the same direction it's posi. You can also turn the tire and count the revolutions of the driveshaft for one full turn of the wheel. Ex. if the driveshaft turns a little more than four turns for one revolution of the tire, then it's a 4.11. Note: this last trick ONLY works on a posi rear end. Something about the spider gears screws this up in an open rear.

 

[Gene Chas]

TK, whoa, don't sweat it. #1 I hope I have an M20 in my '67. If you drag race the wider ratio and steeper first is on.
As far as the 4.11's, well bummer. You would've hated 'em anyways. 3.73's are best for the street. What does one of those Eaton aftermarket posi units cost 400? Then I guess it was a $400 error. Get one and make sure you run the gear you want. 3.31's will work with a stout low end BBC.
Did you get the right motor? Sorry, just kiddin'.

 

[TK-70]

Ouch! Gene, you are ruthless!!! The motor was not the hi-po 350 I was led to believe either. It's a '72 stock motor.
While I really appreciate the feedback, my question about the tranny/rear is not about which I'd prefer, or how to solve the problem. The reason I'm asking about the $$$ differential (excuse the pun) (and yes, it is a 12 bolt) is I'd like to approach the seller with this info and see if we can negotiate some compensation for being misled. I just think an M21/4.11-posi car would be worth more than an M20/3.31-non. Wouldn't you agree?

[This message has been edited by TK-70 (edited 06-18-99).]

 

[Gene Chas]

TK, yeah, you're right. Price out an Eaton aftermarket posi unit ( approx 400 ), tack on TH's 100 "delta" for the M20/21 and then add a "premium" since these items stock would be worth more anyway.

So you've got 400+100+200(new gear set)in what I would call "nominal delta", i.e. the nominal cost to upgrade to what you thought you bought. Then, you should also consider "delta premium", that is to say these items would have been worth more direct from Chevy on your car. So your actual delta is 700 + the premium delta (qualitiative guesstimate = 700 ), so actual may be as much as 1500.
A 4.11 posi from the dealer would have been a "special order". Be sure to check the axle codes to make sure it wasn't changed.

Bring a BIG GUN to the negotiating table!

[This message has been edited by Gene Chas (edited 06-18-99).]

 

[Bill T SS70]

Does your Bill of Sale say " AS IS" If so, the old buyer beware says you're stuck. Now if the seller was dumb enough to list the items on the Bill of Sale you have a legal justification. Did you buy it from a dealer or private sale? Was it advertised in the paper?? If so do you still have the ad.
I guess what I'm hitting on is, can you document that the seller misrepresented the car???

Good luck,

Bill

 

[TH]

TK, Gene is right about the trans. It would be good at the strip, especially with the low rear gearset you now have.

Best of luck to you in getting some compensation. The guy who sold it to you sounds like a pr***. Keep asking questions here. That's what this site is all about.

My ray of sunshine: Years ago I bought a Nova and a few days after getting it home I discovered the source of an oil leak - cracked timing cover. My mom told me (I was seventeen) to call the guy. I thought it was nuts and he'd say tough luck, but he had me bring it back and had the new cover on in two days time. Maybe things'll work a little in your favor. Never hurts to ask.

[This message has been edited by TH (edited 06-18-99).]

 

[TK-70]

The reason I'm very upset about this is because I was shown written appraisals from a few years back stating M21, 4.11, etc. I looked under the car and saw a muncie and a 12-bolt and had no reason to believe otherwise. There are many other surprises as well.
The added twist to the story is that the car was "donated" to a non-profit organization who was selling it to get the cash. I bought the car from this org. The bill of sale did not say "as is". They didn't know much about the car other than the paperwork they showed me. However, the fact that they showed me the written appraisals with these details documented, implies that they were/are factual and relevant. So in my opinion, the car was misrepresented. Now I don't want to come down on a non-profit organization, but on the other hand, I had not planned on "donating" an extra thousand dollars (nor can I afford to). Do you think I have any recourse?

[This message has been edited by TK-70 (edited 06-18-99).]

 

[JodySirmans]

This may be off base but it sounds like the guy who "gave" the car to the non-prof had some dummy paperwork created to up the value he could write off in taxes. This doesn't hurt the non-prof because they don't know any better, and they just need to sign the paper work off saying the guy gave them a car at an estimated value. They are only interested in what they get for the car on the resell. I would think you will have a hard time convincing the non-prof to give up some of your "donation". You may suggest to them that the car isn't worth what the guy claimed and maybe they can hit him with some kind of action (IRS). Sorry for the long post.

Jody
71SS454

 

[Gene Chas]

TK , what's the number? Did you pay book ( low) or did you pay something inflated over book. What did you pay? What I'm getting at is if you paid a real premium for this car based on all the trick goodies, then simply approach the non-profit. They don't want to get stuck in court, and they may just do right by you. If you paid a ridiculouly low sum anyway, then do the posi upgrade and drive on.

The donor either parts the thing out or just BS with the "documentation". At least in '67 the standard rear was 3.31 and any car with 3.31 and below numerically , got the M20.

BTW, going into the Salvation Army HQ with a big gun is not recommended procedure!



[This message has been edited by Gene Chas (edited 06-18-99).]

 

[TH]

This is certainly getting interesting. I think you do have recourse since there was evidently falsified documentation stating the incorrect options. Touchy situation there, however. I understand where you're coming from. You don't want to look like a cheap S.O.B., but on the other hand you don't want to pay for what you don't have. I still say make an attempt for some sort of recompense. Even if it's a fraction of the lost value you will at least feel better for having tried.

 

[283v8]

My guess on the rear end is more like $1000 by the time you get the posi, gears, replace bearings, seals, gaskets and labor to have it set up properly. Call a shop and ask the turnkey price.

------------------
Gotta have a Chevy !

 

[tom wurm]

First thing you should not feel angry with the non-prof about this situation. They did not intentionally misrepresent the vehicle. You should also not feel guilty about going back and informing them that they misrepresented the vehicle when sold. You have to remember that this vehicle was donated and any amount they receive for it is a benifit to them. I would go back to the non-prof and see if you could work out a win /win solution. You might be supprised at how easy this is if you approach it correctly.

 

[TK-70]

Gene, I'm reluctant to mention the dollar amounts involved because without also presenting a complete description of the car, it might be easy to draw the wrong conclusion. I'll gladly share the numbers if I could also disclose the entire list of things broken. This would get rather lengthy, I'm afraid.
Suffice to say I paid less than the appraisal, but the condition of the car has to be factored in (needs paint,trunk, etc). I had hoped to return it to appraisal value for the price difference. That's about all I could afford.
I would like to approach the non-prof, but I'm not sure which approach to use. A phone call? A high-level letter? A detailed letter?
I feel like I have one shot at approaching them and don't want to blow it. Any suggestions?

 

[Jason Shulenberger]

Depends on your level of comfort. A phone call, or face to face would probably be best.

Maybe you could make a donation to their cause. We all have things just sittin that we don't use anymore. That may sway them a bit.

 

[TK-70]

One more important thing I forgot, which adds another twist to the story. The non-prof actually owned the car for about a year before selling it to me. Some of the workers drove it, and they invested in some front-end work, etc. So I don't believe they can plead complete ignorance about the condition of the car.

 

[DG]

Kinda sounds like someone who may have driven/worked on it, might have swapped some stuff. Coulda been like swapping out a burnt posi for an open rear.


I suggest a face-to-face, if you want some action. But unless you spent really big money, I'd blow it off as a learning experience. Besides you still have a Chevelle that will be worth zt least $500 more next year if you do NOTHING!

------------------
DG
Springfield, Ohio
70 Chevelle Malibu

www.wright.edu/~s001dga/chevy.htm

TEAM Chevelle Member #0086

 

[mike reeh]

VERY interesting.. Wierd twist how it was bought from a non profit org. Seems to me like the best way to go about it is a letter stating FACTS about the car, perhaps pay to have the car appraised again and compare the before & after appraisals.. Better not wait too long though, and I'd send the letter to the most important person you can find at that place.. No threats, but dont be a softie.. ultimately you just got ripped off, and just because its a non profit organization doesnt make it right, esp. if someone has been driving the car and swapping parts.. when the organization received the car it may have been everything that the appraisal claimed

let us know what happens...

Mike
Gold #34

 

[Gene Chas]

TK, employees drove it for a year. Hmmm...

Doesn't matter. get an appraisal. Get hold of the highest level decision maker you can. I don't think they'll want to jam you up. Be very polite, but very insistent. Always know what you want before you go into a negotiation and since you won't LET US DO THE NUMBERS FOR 'YA it's up to you.

Mike Reeh said it. Monday am you better get on the horn, get someone over at the non-pro. The person in charge of the auctions or the damn CFO's office.

 

[TK-70]

Thanks for the advice. I'll get some wheels in motion next week. I'll let you know if anything develops. Your feedback is genuinely appreciated... TK