[besserspat]

Hi everyone,
This is my first post here, and hopefully It will shed some light on this problem...

WHAT IS THE IDEAL MOTOR FOR THIS CAR:

I know its not a Chevelle but I honestly think some of the best gurus are found on this board.

The car:
A 1971 RS CAMARO (currently th400 AND A STOCK 72's 350 CI)

The Plan:
To keep it stock (era correct) loooking inside out, 80% street use 20% track.
Bulletproof because I am VERY hard on my equipment.

The limitations:
Streetability : Idle under 1000 rpm, enough vacuum to run brakes,pcv,dist.
Stock flat hood ( big block intake choices are very limited in this case).
Street suspension and 275-60-15 radials/ no traction bars...
Full exhaust with tailpipes.
NO roll bar.
No power adders or forced induction.

The Driveline:
A built 8.5" 10 bolt with an Eaton Posi and 3:73 gears
A TKO 600 5 speed manual transmission

NOTE this transmission is limited to 600 lbft of torque.
NOTE:maybe a built 200R4 would be better , I need an overdrive transmisison for the street.

The dream:
To have this car running 11s flat in street trim , on dot slicks and be dead reliable.

What is the best Motor to achieve this , my balls are leaning on the BBC side but my brain keep saying to stick with a sbc to minimize driveline parts breakage with a stick shifted low 11s car

I putting alot of money in that car, and I dont want to have any second thoughts about what motor i should have built.Its probably the last car from the 70s ill build. This is a keeper...

now tell me what engine would be the best and why...

468 bbc ? 406 sbc? stroker 383? stroker BBC like a 496?

I want to extract every single bit of potential out of that car... help me doing it !!!

 

[GRN69CHV]

Straight answer. Not going to happen N/A. Aren't those cars fairly heavy? I'd give serious consideration to keeping the T400 trans and going TurboCharged SBC. Bet it would be less money and faster when done.

 

[Jason Snyder]

a 496 , you want vacuum ,idle quality etc,etc. so you MUST use cubic inch ! Infact you goals may lead you too a 540 .. you know 10.1 compression , a large hyd roller cam ,and good aftermarket heads . Your next thread will be ,the ideal rearend !! because you may grenade that 10bolt .

 

[jeff swisher]

I few things i see wrong . or tuff to overcome
power brakes,,unless you get a vacuum source, but it can be done without. if you select the right parts
no traction bars...what other kind of traction device are you willing to use,
275-60-15 radials ,,I hope drag radials of some kind
full exaust,,do you mean over the rearend and what type of muffs and 3" mandrell or no...

will you install subframe connectors?
are you going to lighten this ride?
373 gears ?
that right there is screaming BBC..or a lightened by aluminum afr heads SBC in the 406"
Build an afr headed 406 with an aftermarket block and a light rotating assembly and a roller valvetrain, that should last awhile and get you there
run the performer RPM intake or airgap..

 

[besserspat]

well I know the 3 73 are a bit steep for the BBC , and may be better with a 200r4 auto.I can always change gears to achieve my goal no problem.

The car as it sits is 3350 pounds with an iron sbc and th400.

When I say streetable , I drove many cars with 10" vacuum at 750rpm idle and it was fine with me so I dont need a super smooth daily driver, but something that will not require vacuum cans, or pumps.

The torque limitations of the transmission are the real limiting factor...

Can this car with 550-575 hp-tq at the flywheel go flat 11s with 3400 pounds (sbc) or maybe 3700 pounds bbc to haul around...

The car WILL get subframe connectors and I dont mind using a set of slick at the track.

Maybe a 468 with small afr heads and approx [email protected] 050 Solid Flat tappet and 10.5 cr.???

Or a 383-406-421-434 with Afr's 195 or 210 cnc? and a solid ft in the 240s @ 050?

 

[Ron454]

What does it weigh? That will get you in the ball park for the HP required.
At about 3500 lbs with driver, it will take 550 FW or so hp to go 120. Getting it to ET will be more difficult. 11 flat takes a good drag race setup. You can do it w/o traction bars, but it will take some good spring research. I have seen it done.
A 406 can do 550 hp, but it will be pretty nasty...there goes the power brakes.
A 496 can do 600 and be pretty mellow. But w/o alum heads, it will be a weight penalty.
a 540 can do 650 and also be pretty mellow.
With enough HP, the suspension doesn't need to be perfect to run near 11 flat.
Interesting goal, and I love those Camaros. Don't see many around at all.

Ron

 

[badrad]

I vote BBC 496 or 502, not hard to achieve those power levels reliably with either one.

 

[how69ss]

What does it weigh? That will get you in the ball park for the HP required.
Ron

Yes, I'd figure out what type of hp you need first. Make sure to factor in accesories from the dyno to the track/driving. You will have a mech water pump and alt, mech fan, and exhaust. Also, make sure to factor in the DA of where you will be racing.

One issue is that for 11s you need a roll bar. Maybe you'd be better off with a goal of 11.50s on drag radials. No roll bar needed and that's very respectable.

Like most things, there's a law of diminishing returns, where it costs more and more to go just a little bit faster. Seems like 11.50s is about where that is.

I like the idea of a small block and AFR heads and hyd roller and a 2004r or a manual trans, but then you'll need DOT slicks or regular slicks for the manual trans. If you went BB, then stick with the TH400 and run a little higher gear. The tq will take car of it.

 

[aukai]

I don't see it being done with out a rear end change and traction assistance of some kind. The bigger the cubic inches the milder the motor can be. 4L80E to live behind it. Do it right and you will only have to do it once. If you go to an NHRA track to run it it will need a roll bar. Pretty simple....

 

[besserspat]

wow thats great to get so much input in such little time...thanks guys..

As for the WEIGHT of the car , well its hard for me to say how much it will be with a BBC , but as it sits now full interior, street trim ready to run iron headed sbc is : 3350 pounds.

I have a couple of local tracks around here that host "street car shootouts" heads up racing , and they dont time the runs...I used to race my drag bike there, but I want to take the camaro next year. You dont need a roll bar since there is no times.

Most guys run 11s , so low to flat 11s are my goal. Im not running for the fame or bragging rights , just for the fun of racing heads up against similar cars.

On the streets here there is alot of real fast street cars , turbo'd rwd japanese cars and high tech domestic muscle thats run 11s and some into the low 10s.

I dont want to be the fastest. just to keep up with them, on the streets as well as on the track, to keep things interesting.

 

[how69ss]

IMHO, you really need to weigh the pros and cons of a manual trans versus an auto. You already have an automatic, so I would use that. You can always switch later. Plus, you can get one set of tires, a good drag radial and use that on the street and at the track, though your goal of low 11s will be harder with the drag radial obviously. If you go with the stick, then you have to use a slick if you want it to be reliable but then you also start running the risk of breakage, and with that rear end. . . .I think that a low 11 second stick car will get you into a whole other category of work/tuning/cost.

I guess I am of the view that's it's VERY hard to have a street/strip stick car that is consistent and dependable at the track and runs mid to low 11s, and crosses right over to the street.

Plus, it would be cool to drive the car in and race it just like you drive it. After all, you say you want it to look stock, etc.

 

[67RS502]

3400lbs to run 11.0s will take around an “honest” 500-525hp,
which isn’t to hard to make out of a mild 400sbc.

I’m throw my buddy – Mikes 70 chevelle out for an example:
All steel 70 SS chevelle, 3700+lbs
418sbc, 560hp/555tq
HR cam in the 230s/240s – very streeable
10” (4000flash) 373s
Without tuning ran 10.90s @121 (theres way more in it, should go mid 10s)

Your car being way lighter should only need just over 500hp
to go low 11s, even with a 10” and 373s
A mild 400sbc will make that power easy, and with a very mild & streetable cam.

 

[how69ss]

3400lbs to run 11.0s will take around an “honest” 500-525hp,
which isn’t to hard to make out of a mild 400sbc.

I’m throw my buddy – Mikes 70 chevelle out for an example:
All steel 70 SS chevelle, 3700+lbs
418sbc, 560hp/555tq
HR cam in the 230s/240s – very streeable
10” (4000flash) 373s
Without tuning ran 10.90s @121 (theres way more in it, should go mid 10s)

What heads and compression with that combo?

Do you think the heads are pretty key here in terms of being able to run a milder cam? The better the heads, the less cam he'll need, etc.

 

[GRN69CHV]

Pete, see where this is headed?? Pull that stock low compression 350, give it a good going over, put a turbo under the hood and run low 11's all day long. You ccoul even drop the rear down. My '69 was factory SS big block car. So I kept it big block. If had to do it again, I'd go turbo charged SBC and not look back. Easy enough out of the hole, then spool it up and run 120-125 out the back end without breaking a sweat.

 

[besserspat]

I know a power adder like supercharging or a turbo is hard to beat, but the car is a 71 RS camaro, I will put it back to its original shape and will look era correct inside out.

I would like to avoid roller cams as well and prefer a solid ft cam too.

Im trying to make this thing run with 70s technology.

the goal with this car for me is a 70s time capsule than can slap most high tech modern muscle o the streets now.

I want to keep the original feel of the 70s car, you cant get that ride and feel in anything on the market now.

If I wanted to go all out racing, turbo or supercharged would get my attention for sure.

 

[GRN69CHV]

Hear you. You see what I run. I drive my car everywhere for hundreds of miles at a time. Once hitting the sub 11.50, I've actually moved to slowing the car down to run 11.60-11.70 but working on getting it to be consistent on all track conditions. Which needless to say, getting the car to run faster on a prepped track is easy, just keep adding more power (cam changes), getting it to hook up and go on Friday Night street nights - that's a whole other challenge. Overall, I think it is easier to build a large displacement small block with good heads and get the job done. With a small block, you have the advantage of running a hyd roller without issue.

 

[67RS502]

What heads and compression with that combo?

Do you think the heads are pretty key here in terms of being able to run a milder cam? The better the heads, the less cam he'll need, etc.

Yea, heads are a key component, but so is the rest of the combo…
Carb, intake, exhaust and all gotta be right.
Afr 210 heads reworked by a local head guy here in Houston.
Comp is around 10.5:1 I believe.
Super Victor with mild plenum clean up and a 950HP.
1 ¾” headers and 3” exhaust.
Mike also posts on here, goes by 68chevelle533

My belief is a bit different when it comes to heads and cam on a street deal.
Bigger badder heads (by this I mean look at cross-section, pushrod pinch, velocities,
turbulence, valve sizes and all when choosing heads) and a milder cam can be run,
so I think Mike could have gone with some bigger badder heads and made more power,
or same power with less cam. If you look at my 383, heads are about 220-225cc, but the
cam is only 224/224 duration, pretty much smooth idle, but still made 490hp.

 

[pancherj]

My 1990 IROC was running consistent 11.60 at 117 in a 3300lb car and I drive it 40 miles to work (round trip) all the time (its getting old and tired now!). It even gets 16MPG! It is the stock bottom end L98 that came in the car. AFR 190 heads (ported...they flow 280 at .550"). A hydraulic roller with 236/242 duration and .600 lift with 1.7 rockers (108LSA). 3.73's in the stock 7.5 10 bolt and a good 3600 stall Vigilante converter in the 700R4. Mine is fuel injected with a miniram. The same engine, but a 383 or 406 would get you there. Use a 700R4 and a good lock-up converter. That will really help with streetablility. Getting the power to the ground will be tricky though!

 

[Scotch]

This would be easy if you went LS.

If you insist on going old school, just remember how many guys were running 11-flat in the '70s with their street cars.

Anyway- you need about 600 hp/550 ft-lbs in a SBC or 650 hp/600 ft-lbs with a BBC to get close to that time goal. You have to be able to put it all down to the pavement too.

I suppose tubbing is out of the question too. So you're limiting yourself to a 10-inch wide (275 or so) tire to put all this power to.

You can do this, but it won't be easy. Honestly, the engine is probably the easy part.

 

[JChilders]

If you are looking for streetable brakes why not look at a hydroboost system. It would give you a little more flexibility with how much vacum your engine needs.