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Put a comp cam in my 396. Went flat trying to time the motor. Anyone else have issues??
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Flat cam
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>>> "Anyone else have issues??"
are you serious? this has been beaten to death a thousand times here alone, other forums too. What oil did you use? what was your startup procedure? what lube was used on the lobes at build? what lifters?
ever notice that search button up near the top?
are you serious? this has been beaten to death a thousand times here alone, other forums too. What oil did you use? what was your startup procedure? what lube was used on the lobes at build? what lifters?
ever notice that search button up near the top?
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5,043 Posts
Tom, Ryan has a whopping 10 posts here. Probably not familiar with the site, or what has or hasn't been " beaten to death ", or maybe even the search function. Please cut the new fella some slack.
Thank you.
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2,739 Posts
Unfortunately, EXTREMELY common these days. Not limited to just one brand or anything else. The possibility seems to be inescapable. Careful break-in, correct lube, etc. improves the odds of success; but still no guarantee.
Just one more reason to switch to roller.
Just one more reason to switch to roller.
Amen. Seems like this place is losing the spirit of helpfulness that made it great. The post police are alive and well. Isn't that what this board was intended for? Car guys helping car guys.
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5,728 Posts
Easy big fella. Let's treat the new gear heads like we want them to stay, grow, and contribute.
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7,226 Posts
Really. Take it easy on the new guy. Ryan, sorry about your luck, man. You have some work to do now, as much as it sucks...you'll have to get way into the engine to make sure all of the shavings and such are gone before building it back up.
We've heard from the "did you search/beaten to death" guys...now we need some posts from the "zddp and break in lube are snake oil" guys, and this thread will be complete.
We've heard from the "did you search/beaten to death" guys...now we need some posts from the "zddp and break in lube are snake oil" guys, and this thread will be complete.
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72 Posts
I know that some cam companys make hardened cams but what lifters should be used with these hard cams? How much spring pressure should be used on these or is this lobe dependent. I also see comp has a lifter bore grooveing tool is its use common and have any members experince with this. Or is this the time to throw in the towel on flat hydraulics altogether.Sorry for so many questions but I'm trying to help with a low dollar build and trying to save wherever we can. Thanks for any feedback.
Need some more info-what valvesprings and pressure, etc? What prelube was used and what oil/additive was used?
I reused a cam four years ago to avoid breaking in a new flat tappet.
Just put in a new flat tappet 350 short block in Feb. Cheapest Summit cam, new sealed power lifters, and stock springs. Used the gray past lube on cam at installation, and Comp Break in additive with the Autozone oil. It sat assembled for 4 months prior to start up. So far, 1200 miles and seems good.
Apparently some careful overkill is needed for this.
I reused a cam four years ago to avoid breaking in a new flat tappet.
Just put in a new flat tappet 350 short block in Feb. Cheapest Summit cam, new sealed power lifters, and stock springs. Used the gray past lube on cam at installation, and Comp Break in additive with the Autozone oil. It sat assembled for 4 months prior to start up. So far, 1200 miles and seems good.
Apparently some careful overkill is needed for this.
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Geez, I have even broken-in the same cam twice due to a lifter mix up. Exceptional fastidiousness, i.e., overkill IS required.
Hey, fisrt thing is this, depending on the severity of the damage, you may need to disaasemble the whole engine, get some long gun barrel brushes and really clean everything out, including gun barreling the oil passages. A real PITA but the only way to guarantee success.
After that ordeal, you may elect to spend the $$$$ for a hyd roller.
Hey, fisrt thing is this, depending on the severity of the damage, you may need to disaasemble the whole engine, get some long gun barrel brushes and really clean everything out, including gun barreling the oil passages. A real PITA but the only way to guarantee success.
After that ordeal, you may elect to spend the $$$$ for a hyd roller.
Ryan,
I grew up in LeClaire. I keep a boat at the dristack marina on Canal Shore Drive yet. I will be in LeClaire sometime later this week. If you would like I could come by and share what I know about flat tappet cams. Only ran one in recent years but it ran outragously well, never an issue this last time. Maybe I could point out some things to help with success next time. Breakin period, oil, spring pressure, spring removal for breakin, idle speeds.....
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Alot of time wiping a cam is caused by too much spring pressure among start up. And PITA as it is, if you are running a FT cam, break it in with stock springs, then swap them out for the right ones. Low zinc can be an issue, improper amount of lube on the lobes, not following cam instuctions to the T can kill, or be like me. I had a Caprice that wiped 4 Summit cams in one week. Dummy me never figured out there was a peice of debris in that lifter bore, starving it. I swapped blocks before figuring out the issue and brutha man on 26s rolls his pile every day.
We still get to "fire-up" numerous units with flat-tappet cams and to this day we still haven't lost one single lobe, any manufacturer's, doesn't matter??
We've found over the years that 99.9% of "flat-cams" can be attributed to the customers. There are rules "etched-in-stone" that must be STRICTLY followed. The problem's come about from either inexperience OR not following these rules.
Here are some of the "reasons" we hear, "I couldn't get gas to the carb", "I had the distributor in wrong", "I had a water leak", etc., etc., etc. We've heard many more but you get the general idea! And all the while they are cranking away and trying to solve the "whatever" problem during the most important time in the "life" of the cam and lifters!
(Add) Just to expand on Chris' statement above about the OEM's not building any flat-tappet units anymore, this is only partially true, maybe not on the production line, but if you look through any of the popular retailers, Summit, Jegs, etc., you have tons of choices for flat-tappet units. The only one maybe this doesn't apply to (moreso lately) is the Ford line??
(Add-2) With respect to the "P.S." below here, there is a fair amount of labor involved AFTER breaking in a new flat-tappet (performance) cam, especially when there are normally higher spring pressures in the program! If you think for a moment as to what's involved (assuming you have fired the unit with reduced spring pressures), after the break-in period you need to remove all the rockers, most likely "blow-up" the cylinders with air, remove all the retainers, install the correct springs, reinstall all the pieces, reset the valve lash (solid or hydraulic), and button everything up. It is labor intensive.
We just finished a '69 "DZ", 302", with dual springs and used only the outers for the break-in. We still use ONLY the "moly" lube on the cam and none of the so-called "recommended break-in additives" from any cam vendors. This has been our procedure for as far back as I can recall! The SBC"s are slightly more "forgiving" than the BB's.
Thanks, Gary in N.Y.
P.S. In the early Chev performance manuals it stated quite clearly: (quote) With very high performance camshafts, the initial run-in is very critical and the engine should not be allowed to idle below 2000 RPM for the first 1/2 hour of running time. If after following the recommendations for cam and lifter preparation you have trouble with early cam lobe failure, you may have to run-in the cam and lifters with reduced valve spring loads, and change to your racing valve springs after an hour or so of run-in. (end quote) What I would have added in the manual is: The unit must start immediately and NOT be cranked for any long periods of time to help ensure the correct cam/lifter life!
We've found over the years that 99.9% of "flat-cams" can be attributed to the customers. There are rules "etched-in-stone" that must be STRICTLY followed. The problem's come about from either inexperience OR not following these rules.
Here are some of the "reasons" we hear, "I couldn't get gas to the carb", "I had the distributor in wrong", "I had a water leak", etc., etc., etc. We've heard many more but you get the general idea! And all the while they are cranking away and trying to solve the "whatever" problem during the most important time in the "life" of the cam and lifters!
(Add) Just to expand on Chris' statement above about the OEM's not building any flat-tappet units anymore, this is only partially true, maybe not on the production line, but if you look through any of the popular retailers, Summit, Jegs, etc., you have tons of choices for flat-tappet units. The only one maybe this doesn't apply to (moreso lately) is the Ford line??
(Add-2) With respect to the "P.S." below here, there is a fair amount of labor involved AFTER breaking in a new flat-tappet (performance) cam, especially when there are normally higher spring pressures in the program! If you think for a moment as to what's involved (assuming you have fired the unit with reduced spring pressures), after the break-in period you need to remove all the rockers, most likely "blow-up" the cylinders with air, remove all the retainers, install the correct springs, reinstall all the pieces, reset the valve lash (solid or hydraulic), and button everything up. It is labor intensive.
We just finished a '69 "DZ", 302", with dual springs and used only the outers for the break-in. We still use ONLY the "moly" lube on the cam and none of the so-called "recommended break-in additives" from any cam vendors. This has been our procedure for as far back as I can recall! The SBC"s are slightly more "forgiving" than the BB's.
Thanks, Gary in N.Y.
P.S. In the early Chev performance manuals it stated quite clearly: (quote) With very high performance camshafts, the initial run-in is very critical and the engine should not be allowed to idle below 2000 RPM for the first 1/2 hour of running time. If after following the recommendations for cam and lifter preparation you have trouble with early cam lobe failure, you may have to run-in the cam and lifters with reduced valve spring loads, and change to your racing valve springs after an hour or so of run-in. (end quote) What I would have added in the manual is: The unit must start immediately and NOT be cranked for any long periods of time to help ensure the correct cam/lifter life!
THE FACTS: There is not a cam company out there that made their own flat tappet lifters since HOT RODDING was born. The AFTERMARKET depended on the OEM suppliers for LIFTER supply, therefore they enjoyed the quality control the OEM's demanded from the once 5 suppliers there were. The AFTERMARKET enjoyed this for decades. WE DON'T anymore.
Please refrain from speaking on things that you apparently are not well informed on. I'm on the backside of this industry as a manufacturer and I have a totally different view of what goes on than most.
Hi Chris, nowhere did I mention anything about "QC" in my post, and I'm well aware what you're saying about being on the backside of this business!
Too many "selective" readers on the web, this is not a poke at you, just a "general" statement!
I'm not here to "qualify" myself, only to state the facts that I know for certain with my own experiences.
Sorry if I offended you??
(Add) There are approximately 125 to 150 engine builders/machine shops in a short radius of Long Island, and there are no "massive" stories locally about flat cam lobes! Like I stated, 99.9% is customer related!
Thanks, Gary in N.Y.
P.S. There are hundreds upon hundreds of flat-tappet units sold yearly still today, there is no record of ALL these ending up with flat cams, it's just not happening!
Too many "selective" readers on the web, this is not a poke at you, just a "general" statement!
I'm not here to "qualify" myself, only to state the facts that I know for certain with my own experiences.
Sorry if I offended you??
(Add) There are approximately 125 to 150 engine builders/machine shops in a short radius of Long Island, and there are no "massive" stories locally about flat cam lobes! Like I stated, 99.9% is customer related!
Thanks, Gary in N.Y.
P.S. There are hundreds upon hundreds of flat-tappet units sold yearly still today, there is no record of ALL these ending up with flat cams, it's just not happening!
Yeah, but selling a HYD ROLLER to as many people as you can makes life a better place.
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5,676 Posts
The Hydraulic roller is not the end all.
I see dozens of messed up factory roller cams each time i visit my local cam grinder's shop.
Those cams are SOFT.
The roller really needs to stay in contact..oil is still very important as are spring pressures.
I see dozens of messed up factory roller cams each time i visit my local cam grinder's shop.
Those cams are SOFT.
The roller really needs to stay in contact..oil is still very important as are spring pressures.
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