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A friend of mine was going to buy a cherry 67 SS 396 from a Classic Car Dealer. It is a true SS 138 VIN #but the motor is not correct for that year as he was told up front. The dealer told him for another $3,000 they can re-stamp the numbers to match and re-paint the motor like new. He told him to shove the car where it don't shine and cancelled the whole deal. This is what were dealing with out there in sellers land. BEWARE..!! You can spout about matching numbers till the cows come home but just how many are true or FAKES. Mabey 2% are truly number's matching today. Just wanted to vent as these crooked tactics are happening everywhere. Know what your buying guys cause there out to get YOU.

Bob in CT
 

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I agree with Dale.
Bob, They know you so send a friend in to make the deal.
 

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We need to list all those shops that are known to be doing such things as restamping. When I had the machine work done on my 66 engine which is a 74 454 the machinist offered to stamp it, That just shows how intelligent some of them are exspecially when the castings are not even close. I watched a m20 muncie go for $1700.00 with no vin stampings on it on ebay, just because it was going to be stamped for the correct numbers guy
 

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Before listing business establishments for reportedly bad practices whether perceived or real, which isn't really encouraged here as it may be viewed as being against the rules, I'd check with local authorities about the legality of stamping VIN derivatives on engines and transmissions. If it is indeed legal (unethical doesn't count), let them handle it. If, for some reason, it's not illegal, you might be called to task for implying the business in doing something illegal. I can't imagine it isn't illegal since many of us would consider it 'tampering with a VIN'.

It might do well to talk to 2 or 3 local or state authorities. Someone that doesn't care or doesn't see it as a major problem might not be as knowledgable about it.
 

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It definatley pays to know your casting numbers, casting dates, fonts and broach marks dosen't it?

I'd be afraid to buy a 67 427 Tri-power vette these days.

I think they estimated twice now exist more than manufactured.

With the correct equipment and a correct dated block, you couldn't tell no matter how good you were.

Which brings me to a question.

If you have a well documented car with buildsheet and no motor, and you find a correct dated block and stamp to match......

Are you commiting fraud? Or, correctly restoring the vehicle with what it had from the factory?
 

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Clarify 'stamp'. If it's the engine ID stamp only, I'd say not legally since the engine ID stamp only identifies the plant, date, and horsepower/transmission type. If you include the CON VIN, then in my opinion, yes it's fraud (1) because it's not the original engine it's being passed off to be and (2) you're altering a VIN stamping which I believe is illegal. From what I've read, the Corvette community is 'allowing' restamped engines and accepting them. Whether that's just the engine ID information or if it includes the VIN I don't know.
 

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I hear there is a classic car dealer in N. Canton,Ohio that does this kind of thing all the time. Dont want to mention any names cause its just hear say but ive heard it from a few different people.:sad:
 

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If you have a well documented car with buildsheet and no motor, and you find a correct dated block and stamp to match......

Are you commiting fraud? Or, correctly restoring the vehicle with what it had from the factory?

If you are pondering this, ask yourself this question?
Would you like to buy a car believing that it is the correct matching number engine that the car was born with and spend full market price for this car, only to find out later this was done. Would you feel cheated?
If you would feel cheated, than to you, it is not a legitimate ethical thing to do.
If you would feel you got your moneys worth and were not cheated, than to you it is a legal process.

How many of us would feel we got our moneys worth?
Jeff Dotterer
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With all the talk about "matching numbers" and/or original engine brings me to my question. How can anyone guarantee the engine to be original in their car or a car they are selling if they did not buy the car new and maintained posession/ownership of the car since new?

My wife is the second owner of a 67 Corvette with a 327/powerglide she purchased in 1986. She purchased the car from the original lady owner. While we know the car is and was complete matching numbers with dated components down to the original shock absorbers upon purchase, how can she guarantee that the engine/transmission are original since she did not own the car for the first 19 years of the car life? The real answer is SHE CANNOT!

We can talk all we want about dates, broach marks etc but in today's world about all a seller can guarantee is that the car is matching numbers if we did not buy the car new. IE the VIN number on the engine/transmission match the car. You certainly cannot guarantee the drivetrain to be original since the car was not in your ownership the whole time during it's life.

The car will certainly drive down the road just as well with a "restoration engine" as it will with the original engine. I think the real issue is that a buyer needs to decide in his/her own mind what is important for them in the car they purchase and only purchase a car that meets those wants and desires. This will require a lot of time and effort and if needed, paid professional help in the search for a car AND the purchase of the car.

All this crying after the purchase that he/she screwed me is really getting old. Use the proper due deligence on the front end before you purchase and you will not have to be a cry baby on the back end after the purchase. There are lot's of good cars out there for everyone, matching numbers or not!
 

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If you are pondering this, ask yourself this question?
Would you like to buy a car believing that it is the correct matching number engine that the car was born with and spend full market price for this car, only to find out later this was done. Would you feel cheated?
If you would feel cheated, than to you, it is not a legitimate ethical thing to do.
If you would feel you got your moneys worth and were not cheated, than to you it is a legal process.

How many of us would feel we got our moneys worth?
Jeff Dotterer
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No Sir, definately not pondering that. But as mentioned, many in the Corvette circles are considering that option valid, especially with correct castings and dates.

The term matching numbers refer's to just that,

I've also heard of lawsuits being lost because the seller never states "Original Engine" only "matching numbers"

My car is a recreation but will stand on it's own merits alone.... I'll leave the stamped 83 Truck 4-bolt underneath with the LS6 heads, intake and carb on top.

Hypothetically speaking though, I can almost understand the urge of restoring a car to exacty the way it left the factory if you have documentation.

It's definately fradulant if you pass it off as original, but I'm not so sure it's illegal to match the VIN on an engine to the car your restoring to original specifcations and installing it in.
 

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I was able to confirm matching numbers by the POP impression and the vehicle history. Still, if the POP had passed through several owners, one of them could have used that detail to restamp the correct number, yes?

Having said that, I modified the car and stored the original parts (283 with powerglide is no fun to drive), so I don't care anyway. I just want to drive it and have fun.
 

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Go buy a car from the large Corvette dealers and you will sign a document that states that you, the buyer, accept and understand that the seller in no way guarantees the originality OR authenticity of the car you are buying. This goes for all all the cars they sell including the documented to hilt, known correct, original cars and the junk. Most dealers now record via pictures all the VIN and trim tags, casting numbers, date codes, individual component pictures, copies of all the paperwork with the car and the signed AS/IS paperwork signed by the buyer for all cars they sell. All to protect themselves from unscrupulous buyers!

We all seem to hear about the dealers or private sellers of cars being blamed as the only bad apples. There are also many instances of buyers changing items on car, tags and paperwork after purchase and then blaming the problem on the seller. I find it interesting that these problems are rarely discussed in these open forums since nobody wants to judged poorly because of their actions however they are eager to cast stones at a business or other individual.

Unfortunately this is what the hobby/business of old cars has become due to unscrupulous Sellers AND Buyers!
 

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Unfortunately this is what the hobby/business of old cars has become due to unscrupulous sellers AND buyers!
This is so true!!!! So my point being, lets not encourage doing it in any way. A correct restoration could be considered installing a correct suffix coded engine, built in the correct timeframe before the car. And the VIN don't match, so what!!! Is it a matching numbers car?.........No, But is it a correctly restored car with an original engine in it, regardless of if it is the one that is born with it? I think it is. And this car should be worth a substantial portion of a true matching numbers car, since it is still an original engine that could have come in the car. If the hobby would have stood up and pronounce that this is how it is done many years ago, we would not be in near the pickle we are in now with this stuff. I have said this for many years. I have also stated that having, owning, restoring a non-matching numbers car should not be considered a sub-standard or inferior way to do it. However, I do recognize that this has always been and is always going to be a controversial subject. And I know it sounds strange coming from a matching numbers guy, but we should let the matching numbers cars be, and encourage true restoration of ones that are not. And if all of that does not matter to you, and you enjoy your car as is with whatever motor you decide to install under your hood, good for you!!!! But the animosity between people in this hobby, matching vs. non-matching, stock original vs modified, is not good for the hobby. And thats the bottom line. But we have to start somewhere, and if we begin to say that the VIN should not be restamped on the block, and that the correct way to do it is find the correct suffix motor in the correct timeframe, than maybe eventually, the fraud would lessen a little. After all, all these car resellers ever do is respond to what the hobby tells them they want. If they demand numbers matching cars, their will always be someone willing to fake them. If the hobby says it is not as important, and gives them a way out, they will be less likely to do it. Oviously will never stop it all, but we might be suprised at what power we have if we all say it here with one voice.

Jeff Dotterer
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*) A correct restoration could be considered installing a correct suffix coded engine, built in the correct timeframe before the car. And the VIN don't match, so what!!!

*) Is it a matching numbers car?.........No, But is it a correctly restored car with an original engine in it, regardless of if it is the one that is born with it? I think it is. And this car should be worth a substantial portion of a true matching numbers car, since it is still an original engine that could have come in the car.

*) If the hobby would have stood up and pronounce that this is how it is done many years ago, we would not be in near the pickle we are in now with this stuff.

*) I have also stated that having, owning, restoring a non-matching numbers car should not be considered a sub-standard or inferior way to do it. However, I do recognize that this has always been and is always going to be a controversial subject, but we should let the matching numbers cars be, and encourage true restoration of ones that are not.

*) And if all of that does not matter to you, and you enjoy your car as is with whatever motor you decide to install under your hood, good for you!!!!

*) But the animosity between people in this hobby, matching vs. non-matching, stock original vs modified, is not good for the hobby.

*) But we have to start somewhere, and if we begin to say that the VIN should not be restamped on the block, and that the correct way to do it is find the correct suffix motor in the correct timeframe, than maybe eventually, the fraud would lessen a little.

Jeff Dotterer
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I totally agree..
.......Very well, said Jeff..........................................................Don.
 

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No, But is it a correctly restored car with an original engine in it, regardless of if it is the one that is born with it? I think it is.
This is the only statement I don't 100% agree with and only because of the wording. Maybe rewording 'with an original engine' to 'with a date comparable engine' and take 'original' out of the equation. Any engine would be 'original' to something, just not that car.

I respect those that spend a great deal of time, effort, and money to correctly restore a car - it takes a special kind of dedication. Unfortunately there are those out there that will take advantage of someone's ignorance (as in uneducated/uninformed, not stupid as in lack of intelligence) to cleverly build a recreation/clone/fake and pass it off as original or numbers matching. In the case of
"I've also heard of lawsuits being lost because the seller never states "Original Engine" only "matching numbers"
apparently even judges don't know the difference or too widely define "matching numbers" since (I've read) the Corvette crowd now accepts non-original drive train components and gives them status.

I think as Jeff so poignantly stated, "If the hobby would have stood up and pronounce that this is how it is done many years ago, we would not be in near the pickle we are in now with this stuff." Many times the 'recreated' portion of a car's description get dropped and all of a sudden they become 'authentic'.

I enjoy them all. :thumbsup:
 

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heres my take. if it is not the born with engine with original vin it is not the real deal. a two bolt block with all other ls6 componets is not an LS6. A LS6 engine in a ls5 ss is not an ls6 car. TO ALTER, REMOVE, OR DEFACE ANY SERIAL NUMBER IS ILLEGAL. PERIOD. I myself dont have a problem with a ls6 car that has a ls6 engine in it. even if it is not the born with motor. just dont try to pass it off as the born with motor. it is up to the buyer to know what he is buying. if i drove half way accross the country to buy a car and it was stated to be born with engine. and it was not i would be pee'd off. we have these cars to enjoy cuz we are getting older by the minute and i hope i can enjoy mine before someone offers me a fortune for it and i cant pass it up. but real or not they are still the cool'est! cars on the planet. full framed big power chevelles.:yes: :D :beers: I JUST LOVE THIS FORUM
 

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I think as Jeff so poignantly stated, "If the hobby would have stood up and pronounce that this is how it is done many years ago, we would not be in near the pickle we are in now with this stuff." Many times the 'recreated' portion of a car's description get dropped and all of a sudden they become 'authentic'.

I’ll add my two cents.

Just where do some of these cars come from. It seems they just magically appear at some auction, with some outrages price tag , but no history. You would think that if someone was about to lay down big bucks for a beautifully restored, numbers matching car, they would want to have some history to go with it. Things like old pictures, old registrations, previous owners names and contacts, things like that. If the car has no history, did it ever exist? To the investor, who is buying old cars, to hold for a short time and than sell, to turn a better profit than can be had currently in other markets, the cars history doesn’t really matter. For others like myself, the history means a lot. And now a little story;

I purchased a 67 SS vert in 1974, while in high school. It was I little rough (dings, small hole in the top) so I was able to get it for three hundred dollars. I drove it hard, and used to take it to the local drag strip on Sundays. I Fraged the original 396 and several others on that 1/8th mile track, and had a lot of fun doing it! Did I see into the future, and save the original long block? No. Back then you could pick up complete 396 engines for under a hundred bucks. I was lucky that I never did anything really bad to the original TH400 or the 12 bolt rear. I still own that car, and had a lot of fun doing all the work restoring it.
A couple years ago, while driving it home from a local car show, the non-original but correct 325hp 396ci engine started loosing oil pressure. I pulled the engine and found that it needed to be rebuilt. While the heads and long block were at the machine shop, I considered, for about one minute, to have it decked and re-stamped. It’s really not that difficult to get done, but decided to leave it be. If I had it re-stamped that would, in my mind, make the engine a clone, or a fake. So I’ll keep on driving, and having fun with my true SS with the not original numbers matching block. Don’t anyone try to tell me that it’s something less of a car because of the numbers that are stamped on that block. The way I see it the history, and memories are worth more than a little money. If that car ever changes hands, the documented history goes with it.
I am the hobby!
 
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