[64play]

Reading lots of threads about HFT cam failures because of poor oil, zinc deficiencies, wrong RPM and all that.
Makes me wonder, does any cam maker offer cam and lifter sets already properly broken in. Send them out in packaging with the lifters clearly marked as to lobe placement. Maybe laser etched numbers in the waist.
The manufacturers all seem to brag about "Spintrons" and other such machinery, seems like an easy fix.

 

[Schurkey]

How would you account for casting/machining problems where the lifter bores aren't where they're supposed to be.

You break-in the cam and lifters in a perfectly-aligned fixture...

...then install 'em in an engine block where the lifter bores are all over the place, and the cam tunnel has half-a-degree of angularity. Now the wear patterns don't line up any more.

 

[64play]

Are lifter bores 90 degrees to the camshaft bore or are they canted?

 

[aukai]

It has been done, just don't remember the company. But engine tolerances may not add up.
According to Chris Straub the FT cam cores are not up to the original specs when OEM was buying them by the thousands. The after market does not have enough buying power to keep the standards as high as when OEM was in the market. Their life expectancy is limited even with all of the additives. If you have the older FT stuff you have a chance. This is what I have gleaned from reading around. This is just my perspective on the subject, for what it's worth.

 

[Schurkey]

Are lifter bores 90 degrees to the camshaft bore or are they canted?

Depends on the engine family.

 

[64play]

BBC engine family. Even though not in a straight line, as in SBC, lifters should still be perpendicular to the camshaft. No?

 

[Vegas69]

It would put them out of business. It wouldn't allow them to sell inferior technology and blame it on you when it fails.

 

[z27]

The cam co. that devised a method of breaking in f/t cams was REED cams and they did this towards the end of thier time in bussiness. They were not very popular up here in my neck of the woods but i used a couple through the years. They were very well made real nice quality and performed as good as they looked ,one of the cams was a TM 282 and the 69 Nova has changed hands but is still with us and the cam is at least 18 /20 yrs old still going strong. We have also kept up with the oil issues since day one . ALEX:yes:

 

[The Old Reliable]

Strange how reports of FT failures seem to involve 1 brand most often
and/or how often an install skipped a step.

Much of the rest is fear-mongering marketing, snow-balling the naive' into irrational hysteria, wherein each "report" morphs into 10,000 examples.
===========================

SIMPLE DIRECTIONS FOR SUCCESSFUL CAMSHAFT INSTALL

Follow correct install procedures, in proper order, with proper springs at proper seat pressures at proper heights.

Apply generous quantities of cam break-in lube to all load & friction surfaces. Utilize break-in oil in crankcase. Pre-pressurize engine before
start-up, verify pushrods oiling at rockers.

Insure engine will have ample air for cooling during initial break-in. Verify coolant level.

Crank & run @ 2000-2500 for 20 minutes.

Follow manufacturer's recommendations as to first oil change, but we
R & R first filter at end of 20 minutes, to examine the filter internally.

We then set the idle approx. 200-300 rpm higher than cam card specs,
put the car through a wide variety of roads, RPMs and MPHs for approx.
300-400 miles, drain the break-in oil, examine filter again, and fill
with any of a dozen premium oils containing complete additive packages.

Drop the idle per specs and drive the wheels off of it! ZERO failures!!

We recommend the Lunati line-up highly & w/o reservation.


HOPE THAT HELPS! :thumbsup:

 

[Highway Star]

Strange how reports of FT failures seem to involve 1 brand most often
and/or how often an install skipped a step.

Much of the rest is fear-mongering marketing, snow-balling the naive' into irrational hysteria, wherein each "report" morphs into 10,000 examples.
===========================

SIMPLE DIRECTIONS FOR SUCCESSFUL CAMSHAFT INSTALL

Follow correct install procedures, in proper order, with proper springs at proper seat pressures at proper heights.

Apply generous quantities of cam break-in lube to all load & friction surfaces. Utilize break-in oil in crankcase. Pre-pressurize engine before
start-up, verify pushrods oiling at rockers.

Insure engine will have ample air for cooling during initial break-in. Verify coolant level.

Crank & run @ 2000-2500 for 20 minutes.

Follow manufacturer's recommendations as to first oil change, but we
R & R first filter at end of 20 minutes, to examine the filter internally.

We then set the idle approx. 200-300 rpm higher than cam card specs,
put the car through a wide variety of roads, RPMs and MPHs for approx.
300-400 miles, drain the break-in oil, examine filter again, and fill
with any of a dozen premium oils containing complete additive packages.

Drop the idle per specs and drive the wheels off of it! ZERO failures!!

We recommend the Lunati line-up highly & w/o reservation.


HOPE THAT HELPS! :thumbsup:

Excellent post.

 

[Schurkey]

I did all that. Didn't work for me...twice. First time, lost about half the lobes. Second time with a nitride-hardened camshaft I "only" lost two lobes.

Turns out, the recommended "upgrade" beehive valve springs are too stiff to allow cam break-in.

Not thrilled with the famous cam company that failed to mention the upgrade valve springs can't be installed until AFTER the cam is broken in.

Everyone has lessons to be learned. I learned new and inventive curse words; and I'll never install a new flat-tappet camshaft that isn't nitrided.

This particular engine (454) went to a girly-roller cam at considerable extra expense.

 

[jambb]

I had 4 motors with flat tappet cams for a BBC break them all in without
inner springs never had a problem with any of them.Ran them for years

 

[SWHEATON]

Not that the particular cam mfg being reff here didnt have some issues over the yrs and still dues with thier assembly lube that runs off lobes/lifters prior to fireup .

But you have to keep in minD they are 1 of the largest suppliers of aftermarket ft cams so more ft cams are being sold by them = more ft cam failures coming out of that larger group of ft cams being sold.

Couple that with inexperienced people missing or not doing important things durring assembly and with some of them not aware of zddp issues that are present with many of the more oils mfg'd along with the off shore lifter issues a few yrs back and all that collective;ly caused a significant increases in FT cam/lifters for Team Chevelle members.

And as somne of you guys know i have been knee deep in this oil issue vs ft cam failures here in T/C for yrs now and when questioning people in T/C that have had ft cam failures i found in 9 of 10 ft cam failures i feel they were likely caused by 3 if not 4 very impritant things the installer missed or didnt do when installing/lubing/breaking in a new ft cam that caused its demise.

Heres a few things that were often missed/not done/etc when i questions all the people that had ft cam failures here in T/C that can easily/collectively lead to ft cam failure durring breakin or soon after.

* DIDNT INSPECT NEW CAM LOBES/LIFTERS FOR DAMAGE-SCRTACHES/DINGS ETC PRIOR TO ASSEMBLY THAST WOULD LEAD TO FAILURE.

* DAMAGED/SCRATCHED/DINGED CAM LOBE-S OR LIFTER BOTTOM UPPON ASSEMBLY THAT LED TO FAILURE.

* DIDNT ENSURE ALL LIFTERS TURNED FREELY IN LIFTER BORES.

* USED COMP CAMS THIN RED ASSEMBLY LUBE THAT RUNS OFF LOBES/LIFTERS IN LESS THEN 12 HRS POST APPLICATION RESULTING IN DRY LIFTER TO CAM LOBE INTERFACE UPPON FIREUP THE NEXT DAY /WKS/MONTHS LATER.

BTW,I HAD MIULT COVERSATIONS WITH COMPS TECHNICAL/ENGINEERING STAFF ON THIS ISSUE WHICH FEEL ON DEAF EARS WITH PICS TO BACK IT ALL UP TOO,WAS AMAZING HOW OUT OF THOUCH THEY TRUELY ARE ON THIS ISSUE THAT CAN COST THEM WARRANTEE LOOS & NEGATIVE PRESS WHICH I POINTED OUT TO THEM.

I USE CRANES GREY TYPE MOLY ASSEMBLY LUBE PASTE (OR =) THAT STAYS PUT UNTILL YOU FIRE UP THE MOTOR WEATHER ITS THE NEXT DAY OR A MONTH LATER.

* DID EXCESSIVE CRANKING OF MOTOR PRIOR TO FIREUP COMPLETE WIPING ALL ASSEMBLY LUBE OFF LOBES/LIFTERS PRIOR TO FIRE UP DUE TO INCORRECT FIRING ORDER,INSTALLED DIST WRONG,DIDNT PRIM CARB WITH FUEL,ISSUES WITH FUEL DELIVERY,ISSUES WITH POWER TO IGNTION/SPARK FOR MOTOR/ETC.

* MOTOR WOULD NOT FIRE OR DIDNT FIRE FAST UNTILL EXCESSIVE CRANKING WAS DONE FOR WHAT EVER THE REASON BUT KEEPS STALLING AND THEY CANT KEEP IT RUNNING DUE TO CARB AND OR IGN ISSUES THAT WERE PRESENT WITH CARB/IGN PRIOR TO FIRING UP MOTOR WITH NEW CAM/LIFTERS INTERRUPTING BREAKIN PROCESS MULT TIMES STOPPING/STARTING THE MOTOR TIME AFTER TIME.

* DIDNT REMOVE INNER SPRINGS FOR BREAKIN WHEN REC BY CAM MFG OR USED SINGLE SPRTINGS WITH TOO MUCH PRESSURE FOR FT CAM BREAKIN.

* USED OIL WITH LOW ZDDP LVL FOR BREAKIN AND IF CAM MADE IT THRU BREAKIN ALSO USED LOW ZDDP OIL POST BREAKIN LEADING TO FAILURE A FEW MILES DOWN THE ROAD.

* DIDNT USE BREAKIN LUBE LIKE FOR EXAMPLE CRANE SUPERLUBE BREAKIN CONCENTRATE /GM EOS/LUCASE TB ZINC/ETC IN CRANKCASE OIL.

* DIDNT CHANGE BREAKIN OIL & FILTER POST 30 MIN BREAKIN WHICH HAS METAL PARTICLE CONTAM FROM CAM LIFTER AND OR NEW MOTOR BREAKIN THAT CAN SCRATCH GAIL CAM LOBES /LIFTERS WHICH THE FILTER CANT ALWEAYS CATCH ALL OF . THEN RUNNING THAT OIL TOO LONG WHICH ISNT ALWAYS A KILLER BUT DOESNT HELP EITHER.

Now can you guys see where there are so many places inexperienced people can go wrong when imstalling & breakin in new cams/lifters and thatsd not all issues they can have either.

Anyway,is something else i do which i feel is very helpfull which is to leave ingtake off untill you adj valves so you can reappaly assembly lube that was wiped off lobes/lifters when doing valve adj you can access thru the center slot opening in intake valley in block to avoid fireup with less then optimal assembly lube on lobes.

I also smear a little additonal assmebly lube in cam shaft inbetween the lobes so when motor & oil heats up that gets mixed with the oil for a little more lube .

Then i very gently pour (as to not wash off) a complete bottle of crane superlube breakin concentrate or gm eos over all lifters/lobes bathing them zddp enricherd lube that also has other additives/base oils designed that also cusion liter to lobe breakin.

I also pour some of the breakin additive over rockers & springs prior to inst v-covers.

Then i install intake & v-covers .

I also ensure dist is installed right,firing order is correct,carb is proimed with fuel,motor has been prelubed,oil with proper zddp lvl was installed,battery is fully charged prior to fierup.

I also setup 1 or 2 20" box fans on a box set to hi speed to force more cool air thru rad for breakin to keep coolant/motor cooler.

Before i install t-stat i fill coolant untill its just about ready to overflow out of intake then install stat & stat hosuing..

I do that so the coolant is touching t-stat so it opens at proper time ,if you dont do that there is usally no coolant touching stat when motor 1st fires fue to air pockets etc and the motor has to get a lot hotter before stat gets hot enough to open.

That situastion makes the motor/oil/new cam-lifters get hotter then thye should which isnt good.

Latsly i also ensure i am running plenty of timing with aftyermarket cam becuase retartded timing makes the motor run hotter.

I am sure i missed something along the way here which i am sure others will chime in with but i hope this info helps people with future ft cam installs/breakin/etc to avoid any failures.

Scott

 

[Vegas69]

It's like groundhog day around here. :boring:

 

[novadude]

I did all that. Didn't work for me...twice. First time, lost about half the lobes. Second time with a nitride-hardened camshaft I "only" lost two lobes.

Turns out, the recommended "upgrade" beehive valve springs are too stiff to allow cam break-in.

Not thrilled with the famous cam company that failed to mention the upgrade valve springs can't be installed until AFTER the cam is broken in.

Everyone has lessons to be learned. I learned new and inventive curse words; and I'll never install a new flat-tappet camshaft that isn't nitrided.

This particular engine (454) went to a girly-roller cam at considerable extra expense.

What engine and springs? I thought one of the big advantage of beehives was the lower over-the-nose force compared to a conventional spring. Seems that beehive would HELP break-in?

 

[Schurkey]

What engine and springs? I thought one of the big advantage of beehives was the lower over-the-nose force compared to a conventional spring. Seems that beehive would HELP break-in?

454 in my boat.

Lunati VooDoo cam 60203
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/LUN-60203/

Lunati spring/retainer/keeper kit:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/LUN-74820K7LUN/
The kit includes +.050 keepers which would lower the spring pressure slightly.
Springs are 74820LUN, listed in the Lunati catalog as a recommended upgrade for the 60203 camshaft.

Too much seat pressure (155). Lunati tells me anything over 130 lbs seat pressure is too high for break-in.

Far as I know, these are the same springs sold by Comp Cams as p/n 26120

I have no problem with Lunati's product, but the documentation needs work.

 

[SWHEATON]

It's like groundhog day around here. :boring:

Todd,sorry to bore you with info that others may find helpfull.

Scott

 

[rustbucket79]

We groove the lifter bores in all performance flat tappet engines that don't get EDM oiling lifters, and anything more than 120/300# gets soft springs for the break in period. Yes a spring swap is a PITA for the customer, but it's better than dealing with a warranty issue.

 

[kirkwoodken]

I'm with Rustbucket79!!!!! I don't know why the cam companies don't supply a set of breakin springs for an extra $10. Just a cheap single wound 70# spring that will keep the lifter on the lobe at 3000 RPM. Seems like that could eliminate a bunch of problems. I know everyone doesn't have an air compressor to keep the valves closed while changing springs, but they can be rented for a day. Anyone who changes a cam needs to be educated that they will have to change springs twice if they want things to last long.

I've used 180# spring load with flat lifters and stock stamped rockers. (SBC) That's what you can do with proper breakin. But, if you start out with 180 pounds and all new parts, you will end up with 33 scrapped parts: maybe more.

FWIW, My friend in Tucson just had a HR go flat on two lobes. The cam was not from the favorite flat cam company. Stuff happens. Don't know for sure, but I'm betting it's a cast core. I would never buy one of those.

 

[superstock]

I always take a couple of popsicle sticks and smear plenty xtra lobe paste on cam through valley after I set lash/lifters. Make sure to run carb idle adj. way up as well as the other things Scott already mentioned a million + times. Timing is way important . ( Shurkey I know yours was a different deal )