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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Ran across an article in the July/13 Hot Rod mag (pp 140-44) re: tuning EFI for E10 or E85. Being new to EFI (FAST EZ EFI just up and running) this was something I hadn't heard about before. I did a search of this forum but didn't turn anything up, so I thought I would put this out FYI and for comments.

HRM has a table showing adjusted A/F ratios for pure gas, E10 and E85. The also give a formula for converting one target A/F to a different fuel. In general they say to fatten up the target A/F for fuels with ethanol (no surprise, but I just assumed the computer already would do that).

IE:
pure gasoline stoichiometric 14.7
" " max power rich 12.5
" " " " lean 13.23

E10 stoichiometric 14.08
" max power rich 12
" " " lean 12.70

I can't get anything but E10 unless I buy race gas (not happening!) so I guess I will change my A/F targets somewhat.
What are you all doing, if anything?
John
 

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I havent changed mine but i dont run a fast or holley. Was on old tpi ecm now goin ls1 ecm. I was never in closed loop operation so i didnt need a target air fuel. I am hoping to go closed loop again with new ls1 ecm control but dont think i will change stoich because gas can vary. Gas contains up to 10% ethanol but doesnt mean it always has 10%. Station to station can be varied too

But it does make sense to compensate for the alcohol. But i target leaner than stoich for cruise anyway. Not too much leaner tho.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Isn't it a federal mandate that all commercial gasoline be E10 now? Initially there would have been some variation as E 10 was mixed into station tanks, but by now I would think it would be pretty consistent?
John
 

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Don't change your target AFR!

You have a lambda sensor, it can't measure AFR (yes, even a wideband still only measures lambda). Stoich is always lambda 1, regardless of fuel. The wideband controller multiplies the lambda by 14.7 and shows you the number because we know what AFR is, but most of us don't know lambda.

E0, E10 or E85, stoich is still lambda 1. But it is presented to you as 14.7:1.

If you go from E0 to E10 or E85 you will have to richen the fuel map (inject more fuel), but your target AFR will stay the same since it is really a target lambda.
 

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Isn't it a federal mandate that all commercial gasoline be E10 now? Initially there would have been some variation as E 10 was mixed into station tanks, but by now I would think it would be pretty consistent?
John
I believe it is only federally mandated in counties that do not comply with some air quality standard? Once you get out in the rural areas you can still get straight gasoline. At least that was the case a few years ago.
 

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Don't change your target AFR!

You have a lambda sensor, it can't measure AFR (yes, even a wideband still only measures lambda). Stoich is always lambda 1, regardless of fuel. The wideband controller multiplies the lambda by 14.7 and shows you the number because we know what AFR is, but most of us don't know lambda.

E0, E10 or E85, stoich is still lambda 1. But it is presented to you as 14.7:1.

If you go from E0 to E10 or E85 you will have to richen the fuel map (inject more fuel), but your target AFR will stay the same since it is really a target lambda.
Yeah but doesnt the ez efi stuff self tune based on your air fuel ratio input table? I am not familiar with ez efi but if you setup the self tune table to target 12.8 to 1 for wot but dont tell it the fuel is E10, or E85 then its gonna look at 12.8/14.7 which is lambda .87 which is fine for gas but not fine for E85. Luckily E10 isnt too far off from normal gas, so what you command for gas will likely be ok for E10.

I was just under impression self tuning tables used afr tables and back calculated lambda based on fuel type stoich numbers. If so then perhaps you would want to change the ecm's stoich value to 14.2 for E10?
 

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Yeah but doesnt the ez efi stuff self tune based on your air fuel ratio input table? I am not familiar with ez efi but if you setup the self tune table to target 12.8 to 1 for wot but dont tell it the fuel is E10, or E85 then its gonna look at 12.8/14.7 which is lambda .87 which is fine for gas but not fine for E85.
Lambda 0.87 is a good WOT mixture no matter what fuel. As long as the EZ-EFI converts lambda to AFR assuming straight gasoline, you will put 12.8 into the WOT target AFR. If you're on E85 then you won't actually be running 12.8:1, it will be way fatter. But if you look at the EFI readouts, the target will be 12.8:1 and it will read 12.8:1 from the lambda sensor.

All this is if the EZ-EFI doesn't have a way to change the lambda->AFR constant (I don't know if it can, I haven't used it).

All this confusion comes from that the wideband manufacturers thought we were too dumb to grasp lambda. :(
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
You can adjust idle, cruise and WOT A/F targets on the EZ EFI by changing the A/F targets for those conditions. As I said, I am just learning, but it seems that since they have the base tune set for E0, an adjustment for E10 would be in order?
John
 

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Ah nevermind i was thinking of my friends boosted motor who targeted .68-.75 or so for lambda on e85. I was thinking e85 liked more rich mixtures, perhaps it does but thats for you to find out. So leave your gasoline AFR meter calibrated as is and read it like if you were on gas. E10 isnt much difference so just find max power and whatever that air fuel ratio is you are set
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Right. I will tinker a little but based on E0. The article includes settings for E85,(they are richer) but I omitted them from my post for brevity.

Just engaging in a little 'mental masturbation'! It helps me understand the system better when I learn about things like this.
Thanks.
John
 

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don't change your target afr!

You have a lambda sensor, it can't measure afr (yes, even a wideband still only measures lambda). Stoich is always lambda 1, regardless of fuel. The wideband controller multiplies the lambda by 14.7 and shows you the number because we know what afr is, but most of us don't know lambda.

E0, e10 or e85, stoich is still lambda 1. But it is presented to you as 14.7:1.

If you go from e0 to e10 or e85 you will have to richen the fuel map (inject more fuel), but your target afr will stay the same since it is really a target lambda.
x2
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I understand the concept of the lambda # and that a wideband converts it to an A/F #.
But if the computer thinks you are running E0 isn't it converting from a base of 14.7/1 ?
It doesn't know it is seeing E10, and change the basis of the calculation, so you would need to adjust the target to compensate, right? What you are saying seems counter - intuitive. I mean, you can't calculate a correct ratio for one fuel when using the numbers for a different fuel?
(remember, I am just trying to learn, not argue!)
John
 

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Let's say you want to run stoich. The EFI is setup to show stoich as 14.7:1 (E0). So you enter a target of 14.7:1. This is lambda 1.

Now you fill up with E10 where stoich is 14.1:1. You still want to run lambda 1. If the EFI knew you used E10 it would show lambda 1 as 14.1:1. But since it doesn't know it will show lambda 1 as 14.7:1. Therefore your target is still 14.7:1. The EFI will see lambda 1 from the O2 sensor and show it to you as 14.7:1, even though in reality you're running 14.1:1.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
OK - I think I got it...the O2 sensor reading reflects residual O2 or unburned hydrocarbons with ideal being lambda 1, regardless of the fuel. It just converts that to the more familiar (and more confusing) E0 number. I was going the other way and thought it was calculating lambda based on the fuel.
Thanks a lot for your patience!
John
 
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