[glennslanaker]

hey everyone,
hoping someone can save me some time and headache. i have a '68 i'm putting a fairly juiced 427 into. it's .030 over, 10:1 comp, cam with around .560 lift, 230 degrees (intake), pro-topline alum heads, edelbrock air gap, etc... my engine guy says he thinks it'll be around 500 horse give or take. anyway, i tell you this so you'll know what we're trying to keep cool. oh, it's a 4 speed car as well. anyway, i hate cooling problems and don't like flex hoses much better. so i'm looking for a direct fit alum radiator that will keep me cool. i'm in the denver, CO area and a typical summer day is upper 80's, low 90's. does anyone think i could get by with a new brass 4 row??? i really don't think it would handle much more than a very mild BB build. but anyway, i welcome opinions. keep in mind i'm looking for something that will allow me to use stock hoses and no mods to support, top plate bracket, etc...

thanks,
glenn

 

[bbjhill]

I would buy an Alumitech and be done with it!


http://www.alumitechreproductions.com/

 

[Xtreme70SS396]

2nd on the Alumitech. Drop-in direct fit, superb quality, audacious cooling.

 

[JJ'65]

Quoted: "does anyone think i could get by with a new brass 4 row??? "

Sure. Why not? Why don't you think that a stock heavy-duty radiator with a fan shroud and 7-bladed fan with a properly functioning fan clutch would not cool your engine adequately? What is it about your engine that would make it much more difficult to cool than a stock engine? Where is the extra waste heat coming from? Do you plan to tow a heavy trailer up six percent grades in 100 F weather with the Air con on? Stock might be marginal for that.

My $0.02

 

[glennslanaker]

how does griffin, be cool, etc... stay in biz??? if folks can just use their 4 row they already have and save $500???

 

[JJ'65]

People buying stuff they don't need isn't restricted to old ladies and late-night TV...Think cigarette manufacturers, loud muffler manufacturers, giant economy size lattes, the list goes on forever. I have a "pilots watch", cost $300 13 years ago. I have a Timex too. Cost $11 three years ago. Timex keeps much better time than the Glycine ever did, but I couldn't wear it around my pilot buddies. Wouldn't be cool. Gotta get my "Status Back Baby" like Frank Zappa and the Mothers of Invention, from "Absolutely Free", ca. 1967.

 

[Xtreme70SS396]

Personally, my 4-row wasn't cutting it. Since I was planning on building more HP in the future (more power = more heat, that's the way an internal combustion engine works) I didn't want to buy a radiator that may be adequate today but inadequate in 2 years.

Plus, people have different perspectives on "overheating". Mine would run normal in driving, only get hot (210°) after a good drive where I get stuck in traffic. I didn't want an extra electric fan, or a high-flow (noisy) flex fan, I've done both before. I wanted a stock-looking setup, which is one of the reasons I went with the Alumitech.

While 210° is NOT overheating, it's not what I wanted. I wanted the thermostat to be in control, not the outside temperature or driving conditions.

Then there's the weight. I removed about 20 pounds from the front of my car, if I remember correctly.

While buying a stock 4-row is a good point, it's not about buying only what you "need", or no one would have steak for dinner.... or a Glycine watch so you can look cool. Buy what you want, what you can afford, and what works for your situation.

 

[Oldskool67]

I had a new 4 row high with high efficency cores in my 67. The brass rad with the stock fan wouldn't keep her cool. I installed an Alumitech with the street sweeper fans they sell and now it runs 180 on the hottest day in Tennessee in traffic! But do what you think is best.

 

[glennslanaker]

thanks to you all, i'm getting an aluminitech today!!! you know, every car i've built has had at least minor cooling issues with stock type radiators. i don't know why, did they run hot new?? you would think juicing a motor and getting an extra 50 horse would make it much hotter. i've always had the radiators cleaned, flow tested, made sure i had a good fan, shroud and still i have difficulty keeping it cool. in my opinion, if you can't run your car at the thermostat's rated temp, then you have a cooling problem. and while running up to 210-220 won't ruin your engine, it takes away power and takes a lot of the fun out of driving when you start to worry. i want to overkill it if anything. i have $6500 in this 427 and don't want to skimp on the cooling.
with all due respect, JJ'65 it appears is in the WA area and is likely not running a HP BB engine. a 283 in 80 degree weather will do great with a 3 or 4 row brass. if JJ wants to fly over here to CO in july, i'll bet him a years supply of beer we'll go out driving and get her to climb up over my 185 degree thermostat setting by at least 15 degrees with a new 4 row brass.

 

[engineer]

first off, thermostat does not control temperatures. Alum heads on engines run cooler than old iron head engines, so brass radiator would work.

 

[Xtreme70SS396]

first off, thermostat does not control temperatures.

Not sure how you define that??

I view the thermostat opening when coolant is at rated temperature, and closing when it's below rated temperature as "control". If the other components of your system are working correctly, the thermostat WILL control the temp of your engine coolant.

Aluminum heads certainly cool better than iron heads. But IMHO that doesn't mean they can be relied upon to keep your engine cool.

 

[glennslanaker]

while i'm in agreement alum heads will give off more heat than iron and therefore aid in keeping the engine cool, i question if that would be significant enough to allow use of a stock brass radiator. maybe so. but in my situation the previous owner of my car replaced the original 4 row with a 3 row at some point. so i would have to spend $200+ on a new brass radiator and hope that was enough. then i would likely have to spend another $500 for an aluminum when the car ran hot. so.......i figure it's only a $300 proposition. and this way when i'm sitting in traffic on a summer day i can just laugh at the heat.
as far as engineer saying a thermostat does not control temperature, isn't that it's sole purpose? am i missing something?

 

[JJ'65]

A little...check it out.... http://www.troubleshooters.com/tpromag/200204/200204.htm

 

[ALUMITECH REPRODUCTIONS]

THERMOSTATS
Probably the most misunderstood components in the cooling system .
the Thermostat has nothing to do with controlling maximum engine operating temps!!!....especially when the rest of the cooling system in( NOT) efficient enough to handle the BTU'S the power plant is churning out in which case it will stay open while the temp gage continues to rise .
What it does it do ? At cold start ,it blocks off the flow of the coolant out of the engine until the trapped coolant reaches the thermostat rated temp ...at which point it opens and allows coolant to begin circulating
this aids in rabid warm up.... which (REDUCES ) cylinder and piston ring wear by bring the engine up to operating temp quickly .

In short only the heat transfer (efficiency) of the radiator and the airflow
trough the radiator determine the engines maximum operating temp !
If you have a 180 degree thermostat and your engine is operating at 220 degrees changing to a 160 thermostat will not change your operating temps you will need more radiator ...or a more efficient one ...or more air flow or both !
If your lucky enough to have the efficiency of a good cooling system
a 180 state is a good choice .. why ? O.E.M testing has proven that the rate of cylinder bore and piston and ring wear is DOUBLE the wear rate at 160 degrees then that of at 180 degrees .. also 160 doesn't get the oil in the pan hot enough to boil off condensed moisture and blow by contaminants ,which remain in suspension and accelerate the formulation of acidic sludge in your engine.
Don

 

[Redmanf1]

There are also high flow thermostats. Some of the stock type do not flow the best.

 

[Xtreme70SS396]

Quote from link:
"But it must be regulated in such a way that at a steady 40 MPH on a flat road in subzero weather, the engine's temperature is allowed to quickly rise to the manufacturer's recommended temperature (usually about 200 Farenheit, give or take 20 degrees). That recommended temperature should also be maintained when the car goes up a 10 mile 7% grade in 100 degree weather. Such regulation is accomplished by the car's thermostat -- a heat sensitive valve that allows coolant to flow through the radiator at high temperatures, but cuts off that flow at low temperatures."

I think we're all saying the same thing - IF the rest of the system is functioning properly.

 

[glennslanaker]

okay, just to put this to bed. i think we can all agree if the remainder of the cooling system is operating to an appropriate level, i.e. radiator, fan, shroud, water pump, the thermostat does control the engine operating temp. if you don't believe me, put a 210 thermo in your car and like magic it will start running 210 without touching anything else. i do concede that if you don't have enough radiator capacity, or you have some deficiancy in the cooling system, changing a lower temp thermostat will not solve the problem. i don't really think very many of us advanced beyond 17 and our first encounter with a car believe otherwise.
regarding high flow thermostats, that seems like a good idea given they are a few extra $. what could they hurt?