[bacon dog]

Ok here’s the background: Bought my 64 SS 4sp 5 years ago (still paying it off, slowly), went off to college (U.C. Berkeley) 500 miles from home, I rarely go home, I totally blew out my first gear and idler shaft when I was home LAST Christmas break, my father wants the car off blocks NOW, I’d assumed I had a Muncie, but it was swapped for a Saginaw at some point. The price for parts and to fix all the other messed up components (bearings and some other items) is about the same as buying another transmission, plus it would save me the headache of rebuilding and so on (just to end up with the same old Saginaw I destroyed while driving somewhat modestly).


About the car and my plans:
Currently putting out about 280 horsepower.
Planning on pumping it up to about 330ish (eventually).
VERY rarely drive the car on the freeway and don’t plan on ever taking it to a drag strip or track; this is a “weekend car” for having fun (not being reckless though, of course) and cruising.
Not too concerned about mileage.
Not concerned at all about keeping the car stock (it’s already been butchered substantially by the previous owner)
Planning on changing out the rear end gears pretty soon after getting a new trans. I’ll probably keep the rear end open for financial reasons (sigh).
Rear end is currently 3.08
Tires are P225/70R14. I’m planning to put on larger wheels later, but will probably keep the overall same dimensions with lower profile tires.
I have about $1200 to spend on a trans.

What is my best bet for a manual trans? I mean, should I just buck up and buy an M20 or are there others I should strongly consider. Any suggestions about who to buy from? I can drive anywhere from Los Angeles to San Diego to pick one up. I don’t mind ordering from somewhere else (aside from the shipping cost), but time is a factor.
Since it’s a street car, I know I should get a wide ratio trans, but that’s where my knowledge ends.
I really don’t have confidence in buying a used one from a swap meet because I simply don’t know what to look for (aside from obvious things like broken gears or awful-looking synchros).
I need to buy the trans before the end of December.
I hate being such an idiot newbie, but I kind of feel over-my-head when it comes to the intricacies of transmissions (even though I’ve done a good deal of research, 5th year college-student style…and yes I have read over Wes Vann’s articles on this site but I’m looking for a spectrum of opinions), plus I really want to appease my father since the Chevelle is collecting dust in his garage.

Thanks a lot everybody.

 

[JodysTransmissions]

Ok here’s the background: Bought my 64 SS 4sp 5 years ago (still paying it off, slowly), went off to college (U.C. Berkeley) 500 miles from home, I rarely go home, I totally blew out my first gear and idler shaft when I was home LAST Christmas break, my father wants the car off blocks NOW, I’d assumed I had a Muncie, but it was swapped for a Saginaw at some point. The price for parts and to fix all the other messed up components (bearings and some other items) is about the same as buying another transmission, plus it would save me the headache of rebuilding and so on (just to end up with the same old Saginaw I destroyed while driving somewhat modestly).

About the car and my plans:
Currently putting out about 280 horsepower.
Planning on pumping it up to about 330ish (eventually).
VERY rarely drive the car on the freeway and don’t plan on ever taking it to a drag strip or track; this is a “weekend car” for having fun (not being reckless though, of course) and cruising.
Not too concerned about mileage.
Not concerned at all about keeping the car stock (it’s already been butchered substantially by the previous owner)
Planning on changing out the rear end gears pretty soon after getting a new trans. I’ll probably keep the rear end open for financial reasons (sigh).
Rear end is currently 3.08
Tires are P225/70R14. I’m planning to put on larger wheels later, but will probably keep the overall same dimensions with lower profile tires.
I have about $1200 to spend on a trans.

What is my best bet for a manual trans? I mean, should I just buck up and buy an M20 or are there others I should strongly consider. Any suggestions about who to buy from? I can drive anywhere from Los Angeles to San Diego to pick one up. I don’t mind ordering from somewhere else (aside from the shipping cost), but time is a factor.
Since it’s a street car, I know I should get a wide ratio trans, but that’s where my knowledge ends.
I really don’t have confidence in buying a used one from a swap meet because I simply don’t know what to look for (aside from obvious things like broken gears or awful-looking synchros).
I need to buy the trans before the end of December.
I hate being such an idiot newbie, but I kind of feel over-my-head when it comes to the intricacies of transmissions (even though I’ve done a good deal of research, 5th year college-student style…and yes I have read over Wes Vann’s articles on this site but I’m looking for a spectrum of opinions), plus I really want to appease my father since the Chevelle is collecting dust in his garage.

Thanks a lot everybody.

For ease of a transmission swap/upgrade; a Muncie 10/27 spline will be stronger and replace the saginaw so you can utilize your existing parts. (clutch, crossmember, driveshaft, etc.) You will also need the Muncie 429 tail extension so you won't have to replace your speedo cable. A 429 tail will have the same speedo cable connection/location as a saginaw transmission.

The killer in your driveline set-up is the 3.08:1 ring and pinion. The cheapest thing for you would be to find another saginaw and baby her until you get some more funds to upgrade the whole driveline.

 

[JodysTransmissions]

Here is a saginaw that will work well with your 3.08s

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/RARE...ryZ33733QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

 

[COPO]

With those 3.08's, when you get the funds, get yourself a M20. It'll work best. The M21 and M22 close ratio trannys will make the car a slouch off the line, and you'll really need to rev the car to get it moving from a stop. If you have more cash later, then wait till you can afford a M22 wide ratio. You'll get that killer 1-2-3 quick gear shifting and have that famous M22 whine that I love and many others.

If you want to know what the M22 whine sounds like then email me for some files I recorded with me driving my 70 Z28 with the door a bit open and a laptop hanging out while I go through the gears and then downshift. I did have it on my web page but it uses too much net band width.

 

[JodysTransmissions]

With those 3.08's, when you get the funds, get yourself a M20. It'll work best. The M21 and M22 close ratio trannys will make the car a slouch off the line, and you'll really need to rev the car to get it moving from a stop. If you have more cash later, then wait till you can afford a M22 wide ratio. You'll get that killer 1-2-3 quick gear shifting and have that famous M22 whine that I love and many others.

If you want to know what the M22 whine sounds like then email me for some files I recorded with me driving my 70 Z28 with the door a bit open and a laptop hanging out while I go through the gears and then downshift. I did have it on my web page but it uses too much net band width.

Mark, Could you send me the M22 sound file? Thanks

 

[bacon dog]

Thanks a lot for all the advice so far, I really appreciate it. I’ve got a few new questions now (of course).

COPO: I know M22’s are expensive and rare, so wouldn’t I be better off just to change out the rear gears and get a less aggressive, relatively more common transmission? (I know the final drive ratio will be about the same, but it seems a better plan to go that route.)

*A quick note: I used to work for my family’s mechanic for a number of years and whenever I go home, his shop is my shop, so I’ve got access to a hoist and all the special tools I could ever need. I mention it in case any of you were considering the pain of changing out the rear in my driveway…

I’ve heard an M22 before, and they are definitely awesome to listen to. I’d still love to hear your files though.

So I could get an M20 with the rear I’ve got or get an M21 (or wide ratio M22) and change the rear gears and have about the same end result? Is that right?

Why would somebody want a wide ratio trans and something like my 3.08's rather than a close ratio and something like 3.73's or 4.10's? What's the argument for each arrangement?

Jodys: Aside from a different trans and rear gears, what else would I need to update in my driveline as per your suggestion? I mean, a Muncie would fit perfectly on the existing crossmember and I can keep the same driveshaft too, right? Am I overlooking something in my New Trans + New Rear Gears = Happy, Stronger Chevelle idea? (I’m not being sarcastic, honestly, that’s just how it looks through my newbie eyes)

Thanks again guys.

 

[COPO]

Jody/Bacon, I'll send you the files later tonight.
Bacon, your cheapest route would be to get an M20 wide ratio Muncie for less than $500. M20's are cheaper than the M21 and of course the M22.

With a Muncie M21 and M22, you need a least a 4.10 and best a 4.56 rear to benefit 1-2-3 gears in the city. With your 3.08, and a M20, your car will drive/launch as if you have a 4.10 gears in 1-2-3. 4th gear rpms on the highway will be rev lower than a car with 3.73 or 4.10's or your comman 3.55 in a Chevelle so I'd save the cash and leave the 3.08 in.

I have 4.10's in my 70 Z/28 with the M22 and in the spring I want to swap them out for M22 wide gears. Originally the car came with the M20 and boy, what balls the car had. I want that snap in the first 3 gears again and keep that whine of the M22. The sound is the only reason I wanted the M22 gears, but I miss the M20 ratio. GM never had a M22 wide tranny, but the same Company that cut the original Muncie gears for GM is cutting M22 wide ratio gears. So I want the best of both the M20 and M22 gear boxes. And I still would like to find a Canadian 70 SS396 Chevelle 4-spd with the ZL2 CI flapper hood.

 

[ssal396]

I run a M-20 and a 3:73 gear, nice street combo IMHO..

Scott

 

[Mike Feudo]

Whatever you do don't spend any money on the old Saginaw. I have given away quite usuable 3.11 low boxes just because they were in the way. With the 3.08s that 3.11 low really works well although a Muncie is far stronger the M-20s 2.54 low may not be enough if you spend much time in traffic.

 

[jb2wheels]

Why not one of the Super T10 transmissions? New for $1400 or so?

M20s are only $500? Get that!

I second the wide ratio box - I had an M20 in a 64 El Camino behind an L79 cammed 327 with 3.08 gears from a PowerGlide car behind it. This was 20 years ago before OD trans were widely available. An excellent combination!

The wide ratio trannies are cool because they give you deeper gears 1-3 that allow a taller rear gear without sacrificing acceleration. As I recall, the RPM drops 1-2-3 are the same for both wide a close ratio Muncies, but the 3-4 drop is bigger on the wide ratio boxes.

 

[1966_L78]

I know M22’s are expensive and rare, so wouldn’t I be better off just to change out the rear gears and get a less aggressive, relatively more common transmission? (I know the final drive ratio will be about the same, but it seems a better plan to go that route.)

So I could get an M20 with the rear I’ve got or get an M21 (or wide ratio M22) and change the rear gears and have about the same end result? Is that right?

Why would somebody want a wide ratio trans and something like my 3.08's rather than a close ratio and something like 3.73's or 4.10's? What's the argument for each arrangement?

Bacon Dog,

The wide ratio allows better accelaration in 1st-3rd gears, and generally allows a less aggressive rearend ratio, for better cruising...

The factory M22 is rare and expensive, BUT there are brand new gears available to build any Muncie case (well, maybe not the early with 7/8" shaft?) into an M22, and also a custom M22 wide ratio...

Now, a little clarification, the M20, M21 and M22 ALL have the same gear spread between 1st/2nd and 2nd/3rd, the "wide" and "close" ratio differences are ONLY when shifting from 3rd-to-4th...

Lets assume you use the common 2.52:1 first gear M20 with your 3.08s...

This would be the same as an M21/M22 (M21 and M22 have the same ratios) with a 3.55:1 rear gear (actually something like 3.53:1, but thats not available)... Accelaration, RPM @ a certain speed, and RPM drop between gears will ALL be the same, UNTIL you shift into 4th gear... In 4th, all the trans (M20/M21/M22) are 1:1, so the RPMs drop more with the M20, but the M20 with 3.08s will allow better freeway cruising, better mileage, less parts wear (but hard to quantify)...

For a budget cruiser, IMO, the M20 would be the obvious choice... Once you decide to go with lower gears in the rearend, the M20 can still be used, just need to shift quicker... There are alot of people that run up to 4.10:1 rears with the M20. I did this, and the car really jumped out of the hole, but for the street, it was almost too much... It got old really quick...

The only drawback to the M20 (IMO), is that if you are racing (actual 1/4-mile timed dragrace), the shift from 3rd to 4th wouldn't be desirable... But that shift probably occurs at 85+ MPH (just a guess, as I didn't go calculate it)... Performance up until then, will be the same...

Along that same line, IF you switch the rear gears, the M20 will have better accelaration than the M21/M22, and then they will all have the same top gear...

The factory generally used M20s for cars with 3.08, 3.31, 3.55... The M21/M22 was generally used for 3.55, 3.73, 4.10, etc...

IMO, the only arguments "for" the close ratio would be in a scenerio where you needed the "close" ratio between 3rd and 4th gear (most-likely racing where mileage, etc where not important), OR if you already had a lower rearend gear (3.73, 4.10, etc) and didn't need/like the extra steep overall ratio that a "wide" would provide... I have heard that the M20 and M21 are roughly the same strength-wise... The M22 is stronger due to slightly thicker teeth and less helix angle (meaning less stress on the case)...


The M22 "wide" is a new aftermarket gear set, and has similar ratios to the M20, but that will cost alot of money. I think the gears alone run around $550, and you are probably looking at $1000++ for a complete trans setup with these gears...


In looking for a Muncie, look for one with a 10-spline input (available with all, M20/M21/M22) as this will allow you to use your current clutch and driveshaft yoke. This is how the earlier trans were... Later, they went to a 26-spline clutch with a bigger output shaft which will require a new clutch setup and new yoke (more money for you to spend)...

You will need a new shifter for the Muncie (or at least a linkage kit)...

 

[Guest]

Try to find a cheap 2.54 Sag. tranny if you can b/c it should do you nicely until you have more money to do it right. (If it is 2.54(?) AND it is the strongest Sag!!)...

AND fwiw, the 3.50 Sag. is the WEAKEST one!! And they are not rare!

They were usually behind Vegas and 115hp V-8 Monzas as well as the later lo-po, Second Gen. Camaro V-6's and such.

I have a 3.50 in my '80 P/U with 2.76 rearend gears now

pdq67

Best Car Insurance | Auto Protection Today | FREE Trade-In Quote

 

[COPO]

Jody, Bacon, I sent you my M22 sounds I recorded in a zip file. Let me know if you receive them ok.

 

[bacon dog]

Got the files just fine. That thing sounds mean! Thanks a lot. I've got 2 finals tomorrow and then I can put up a more substantial reply to everybody. Life of a student...(is good and easy)

 

[COPO]

Bacon, One guy I sent them too was listening to them and his wife came into the room and thought he was nuts listening to those tunes. Hahaha, that's gear head music.

 

[bacon dog]

I know COPO, you really have to like this stuff to appreciate those kinds of things. I've got some comp cams sound files that make me drool when I stumble upon them every few months.

Ok, so school is all done, I'm going home tomorrow, and hopefully my Chevelle will be bombing around town by the end of the month. So here's the new big question: Does anybody have any recommendations or suggestions on where to find a good M20? Anybody know a good shop that sells rebuilt ones? I'm not too keen on ebaying a transmission because of the ship time and risk. Like I said, I can go to the greater L.A. area (I live in Riverside County, by the way).

Thanks again for everybody's input, you all demystified my problem amicably. I'll definitely post after I buy and install the transmission.

 

[COPO]

Get a hold of any of these guys on this site with a PM or email, They'll point you in the right direction.

Wally
[email protected]

DZAUTO
Tom Parsons
[email protected]

JodysTransmissions
Jody Haag
[email protected]

 

[hp396]

Man, I went through the same thing with that piece of dung Saginaw a few years back in my 68 FIrebird.Iwas 17 and it was the first time driving it to school. Needless to say my first high school parking lot burnout not only got me kicked out of the school parking lot but the gears being stripped and ripped off the input shaft put me into a temporary stateof shear terror and extreme embarrassment. I immediately went from hero to zero in front of all my hot rod buddies.Iimmediately limped home with my tail tucked tightly.Oh yeh, that was my Muncie M21.Well, summer was coming and I looked and looked for a muncie until I coundnt stand seeing all my buddies cruising and I was in my 4CYL. Vega.Well i went and bought a saginaw against the advice of all my friends, and all it took was a couple of guys asking for a ride and that was the end of that saginaw and my driveshaft and rear end.I would run from it if you're putting out any hp or banging some serious cogs.It might be ok for just toodling around without getting on it but if you're anything like me, I like to get on it or what's the point.It's just my opinion but I would try to find a superT10 which is avery strong trans as well as the M20,M21,orM22[Rockcrusher]which will be a little pricey unless you luck out.Look on Ebay and your local sales papers.I see them every so often for around 500.00 or 600.00 with the M22 being slightly higher.Dont be a victim of the dreaded saginaw trans imposter.Wait and get a muncie or superT10.You'll be alot happier with your choice and want have all this down time in the driveway.KEEP IT REAL! DAB

 

[hp396]

If your gonna spend about 1200.00 you should be alright.If you find an m21 for around the same price as the m20 dont hesitate to get the m21.It feels tighter and Ithink you would be much happier.I've had both and so have my buddies and the m21 is tighter and seems to have less of a sloppy feel to it.Its also harder to miss a gearBut,whatever you decide to do I wish you the best.HP#(^

 

[1966_L78]

If you find an m21 for around the same price as the m20 dont hesitate to get the m21.It feels tighter and Ithink you would be much happier.I've had both and so have my buddies and the m21 is tighter and seems to have less of a sloppy feel to it.Its also harder to miss a gearBut,whatever you decide to do I wish you the best.HP#(^

???

The M20 and M21 will "Feel" the SAME... As for "tight" and "sloppy", they are the SAME transmission, with just slightly different gear ratios... SAME EXACT shifter, so any sloppy feeling will only be the particular shifter you might have used...

The gear spread between 1st and 2nd and between 2nd and 3rd is the same on BOTH M20 and M21 (and M22 for that matter)... The M20 has a bigger spread (more RPM drop) between 3rd and 4th gear... Thats all...