[BillyGman]

This isn't directly related to Chevelles, (actually this has to do with something for my garage where I keep my Chevelle) but I request that the moderators allow this thread to remain in this forum since there are some very experienced race car fabricators who frequent this section who fabricate various metals for their race cars.

I purchased 1018 mild steel flat bars for a garage project of mine. This is called "cold rolled" mild steel. The flat bars are .250" thick by 2" wide, and I brought them to a local steel place to have 90 degree bends put in them. The owner of the place called me back today and told me that they went to bend the 90 degree angles in them for me, and the pieces just broke in half during the process!!!!

I'm not positive, but I think the place has a hydraulic brake that they used for this process. Whether that matters or not, I don't know. I called the place that I purchased the flat bar stock from, and the guy on the other end told me that A-36 "hot rolled" mild steel is not only less expensive than the 1018 "cold rolled"mild steel that I purchased, (about half the price) but the A-36 mild steel is better for bending and will not break in half at the bends. He also stated that the 1018 "cold rolled" mild steel will have to be heated in order to bend it successfully without it breaking.

I just want to ask if anyone here can confirm what I'm being told, and if in fact I'll have a more successful experience getting the A-36 flat bar steel bent in 90 degree angles without it breaking in half like the 1018 steel did. Quite frankly, I'm very surprised that the owner of the local steel fabrication place didn't know that the 1018 would break in half, despite the fact that I let him know in writing on the blue print that I left for him that this is 1018 steel that he was working with, and he looked at what I wrote. There goes $80 down the drain that I spent on the material!!!

Could he have used some other type of equipment for flat bar steel to put a small radius in the 90 degree bends to prevent the material from breaking in half????? Or is this more a matter of the 1018 steel being the wrong material to use for bending without heat being applied????

 

[steelcomp]

This isn't directly related to Chevelles, (actually this has to do with something for my garage where I keep my Chevelle) but I request that the moderators allow this thread to remain in this forum since there are some very experienced race car fabricators who frequent this section who fabricate various metals for their race cars.

I purchased 1018 mild steel flat bars for a garage project of mine. This is called "cold rolled" mild steel. The flat bars are .250" thick by 2" wide, and I brought them to a local steel place to have 90 degree bends put in them. The owner of the place called me back today and told me that they went to bend the 90 degree angles in them for me, and the pieces just broke in half during the process!!!!

I'm not positive, but I think the place has a hydraulic brake that they used for this process. Whether that matters or not, I don't know. I called the place that I purchased the flat bar stock from, and the guy on the other end told me that A-36 "hot rolled" mild steel is not only less expensive than the 1018 "cold rolled"mild steel that I purchased, (about half the price) but the A-36 mild steel is better for bending and will not break in half at the bends. He also stated that the 1018 "cold rolled" mild steel will have to be heated in order to bend it successfully without it breaking.

I just want to ask if anyone here can confirm what I'm being told, and if in fact I'll have a more successful experience getting the A-36 flat bar steel bent in 90 degree angles without it breaking in half like the 1018 steel did. Quite frankly, I'm very surprised that the owner of the local steel fabrication place didn't know that the 1018 would break in half, despite the fact that I let him know in writing on the blue print that I left for him that this is 1018 steel that he was working with, and he looked at what I wrote. There goes $80 down the drain that I spent on the material!!!

Could he have used some other type of equipment for flat bar steel to put a small radius in the 90 degree bends to prevent the material from breaking in half????? Or is this more a matter of the 1018 steel being the wrong material to use for bending without heat being applied????

I'm wondering what he used to bend it? Press brake? Did you specify a radius? 1018 CRS sure won't bend tight like a softer or HR steel. A36 yield strength is lower than 1018 and why, to quote: Several factors help, including the surface finish and the homogenous alloy composition, but the most significant contribution to the increase in yield strength for cold-rolled is the strain-hardening caused by the process itself. That is to say: the dislocation density is nano-scopically increased and there is irreversible microscopic crystal deformation, with subsequent decrease in plasticity and ductility caused by (respectively) the resistances to further nucleating dislocations and increased pinning point impediments.

Essentially, smushing the alloy cold makes it harder.

 

[BillyGman]

I'm wondering what he used to bend it? Did you specify a radius?

No I didn't. And I thought that he would know what radius can be used, or what is required to accomplish the task without the bars breaking in half like they have. I know he has a hydraulic break, but I don't know if that's what he used. Needles to say, I'm not very happy with this guy right now in light of the fact that he just threw $80 of mine down the toilet with his folly.

I've done biz with this guy before, and he has some big contracts with big companies too. He's anything but a novice, so I figured that he would know if there would be any issues with this job and that he would alert me to them BEFORE his people went and ruined the material I delivered to them.

 

[BillyGman]

The question is: will A36 steel bend easier without snapping in half, than 1018 steel will?

 

[GRN69CHV]

Billy, I am in metals business. (well, was for 30 years). A36 is considered mild steel, suitable for cold bending, forming,,etc. Hot finished just means it is formed and sized right from the melt. A36 is generic steel grade. 1018 is better suited for machining. While not an alloy, it does have increased amounts of alloying elements in it. Cold rolled means it is finshed / sized by progessive sizing on finishing rolls at lower than meltpoint temps. 1018 is a harder steel,

 

[steelcomp]

The question is: will A36 steel bend easier without snapping in half, than 1018 steel will?

Short answer, yes.

 

[steelcomp]

No I didn't. And I thought that he would know what radius can be used, or what is required to accomplish the task without the bars breaking in half like they have. I know he has a hydraulic break, but I don't know if that's what he used. Needles to say, I'm not very happy with this guy right now in light of the fact that he just threw $80 of mine down the toilet with his folly.

I've done biz with this guy before, and he has some big contracts with big companies too. He's anything but a novice, so I figured that he would know if there would be any issues with this job and that he would alert me to them BEFORE his people went and ruined the material I delivered to them.

Unfortunately, a lot of these types of business aren't as "smart" as you think they are. Without getting on too much of a soap box, the world of CNC this and computer that is dumbing down the work force in a lot of areas. Used to be a machinist or fabricator actually had to know these kinds of things but because so much has become so automated it's not as necessary. These days a "machine operator" relies on an engineer to do the homework and provide a spec for everything. If the spec isn't provided like a min. bend radius, the "machine operator" doesn't have the background or knowledge or even experience to know whether or not he's bending a piece of 1018 too tight. I know this is a big generalization but I'm seeing it more and more as I get older. Skillsets are just not taught these days, and "knowing" how tight you can, or can't bend certain steels is a "skill" that comes from experience. I mean, come on...1018 cold rolled can be bought at Home Depot...not like it's some exotic alloy...

 

[MadmanMark]

The A36 does bend easier, but the 1018 could've been 90'd if they would've pre-heated the bend line. It also would've held it's shape better than the A36. Ask the guy if he has 1144, which has a lot more ductility than 1018 and is much stronger than A36.

 

[novaderrik]

any time we have to bend anything here at work, it calls for hot rolled..

 

[jackie schmidt]

You can heat cold rolled steel and it will bend easier, but there is no guarantee it won't heat check.

We machine a lot of 1018 thru 1026 bar stock, we make large prop shafts for various work boats, mainly inland and river tugs and push boats.

1018, 1022, and 1026 Hot Roll has a much better machinability and weldability than 1018 cold rolled steel.

Get some mild steel hot rolled flat bar. It will not be as pretty, but it's designed to do what you are wanting to do.

 

[Ken Hayes]

Like Jackie said, cold rolled can be bent by heating with a torch but no guarentees with it. Hot rolled steel can easily be bent to 90 degrees, it just wont have the crisp edges and smooth finish as cold rolled.

Retired in 2008 as a toolmaker since 1965.

 

[BillyGman]

Billy, I am in metals business. (well, was for 30 years). A36 is considered mild steel, suitable for cold bending, forming,,etc. Hot finished just means it is formed and sized right from the melt. A36 is generic steel grade. 1018 is better suited for machining. While not an alloy, it does have increased amounts of alloying elements in it. Cold rolled means it is finshed / sized by progessive sizing on finishing rolls at lower than meltpoint temps. 1018 is a harder steel,

Short answer, yes.

Unfortunately, a lot of these types of business aren't as "smart" as you think they are. Without getting on too much of a soap box, the world of CNC this and computer that is dumbing down the work force in a lot of areas. Used to be a machinist or fabricator actually had to know these kinds of things but because so much has become so automated it's not as necessary. These days a "machine operator" relies on an engineer to do the homework and provide a spec for everything. If the spec isn't provided like a min. bend radius, the "machine operator" doesn't have the background or knowledge or even experience to know whether or not he's bending a piece of 1018 too tight. I know this is a big generalization but I'm seeing it more and more as I get older. Skillsets are just not taught these days, and "knowing" how tight you can, or can't bend certain steels is a "skill" that comes from experience. I mean, come on...1018 cold rolled can be bought at Home Depot...not like it's some exotic alloy...

The A36 does bend easier, but the 1018 could've been 90'd if they would've pre-heated the bend line. It also would've held it's shape better than the A36. Ask the guy if he has 1144, which has a lot more ductility than 1018 and is much stronger than A36.

any time we have to bend anything here at work, it calls for hot rolled..

You can heat cold rolled steel and it will bend easier, but there is no guarantee it won't heat check.

We machine a lot of 1018 thru 1026 bar stock, we make large prop shafts for various work boats, mainly inland and river tugs and push boats.

1018, 1022, and 1026 Hot Roll has a much better machinability and weldability than 1018 cold rolled steel.

Get some mild steel hot rolled flat bar. It will not be as pretty, but it's designed to do what you are wanting to do.

Like Jackie said, cold rolled can be bent by heating with a torch but no guarentees with it. Hot rolled steel can easily be bent to 90 degrees, it just wont have the crisp edges and smooth finish as cold rolled.

Retired in 2008 as a toolmaker since 1965.

Joe, Scott, Mark, Derrick, Jackie, and Ken, you guys have really helped to educate me on this steel fab topic! thanks very much for all of your descriptive and helpful replies. This is precisely why I like posting here on this board. there's always someone who knows more than I do in the topics I need to be schooled in, who is also willing to share their knowledge.

All of your replies have shed a lot of light on this topic for me. The next time I embark on another similar project that calls for flat bar steel, I can now make a much more informed decision about my choice of materials. As for this time, now I need to simply decide whether or not I should have the guy weld the broken halves together to make the 90 degree angles I was wanting him to accomplish with the 90 degree bends, or if I should just start from scratch with four new pieces of either 1144 steel or A-36 steel to have him bend it into 90 degree angles. And if I should choose the welding option, would MIG be good enough, or should I have him TIG weld the pieces together.

One other question I would pose is the following: Is it any big deal welding 1144 or A-36 steel pieces onto a 1018 steel piece? Would there be any special requirements as far as which welding method or which type of wire to use?

 

[jackie schmidt]

1144, what many of us call "stress proof", is NOT a good weld able steel to anything other than a low stress cosmetic pieces. The high carbon content, and high sulphur which gives it that great machinability, is the culprit. These very things also do subtract from the overall ductility.

We use a lot of 1144 in our shop for things like body fit bolts and small pins and shafts where it's out of the box strength is sufficient. It has a phenomenol anti gall quality when making things like foundation or coupling bolts that have a slight interference fit.

While 1018 cold roll does not have the same weld ability as A-36 or 1022 hot rolled shafting, it is acceptable when using a true low hi weld.

One other note about steels. The actual mechanical properties of a steel has as much to do with the quality of manufacture as it does the alloy content. A lot of the steel we are getting now is just plain "dirty", loaded with all sorts of inclusions that subtract from all of it's other properties, mainly ductility and weldability. Most of this steel is coming from China, some from Eastern Europe.

this can really show up when you start to weld or burn it. Plate that is laminated, or round bar that is just full of garbage, is something we are always on the lookout for.

It can be very discouraging to have a truck load of 100,000 pounds of shafting material and every third piece is deemed unusable, even though it has the correct paper work, and passed all of the inspections.

Of course, the supplier will replace any stock we find unsatisfactory, but they do not pay us for all the time we put into the piece up to that point.

 

[BillyGman]

Hmmm, yes Jackie, the overseas and foreign out-sourcing was something that I suspected. It seems that you just can't get away from that these days. That's another interesting as well as applicable point that you've made.

 

[oktunes]

Good info