[FarmerJoe]

Hello everyone,

I am searching for some opinions and some advise. I bought this 1964 El Camino with a 454 back in 2017 and had a lot of fun with it. People who know much more about engines and classic American Muscle (I know, it´s an El Camino ;-)) in particular took a ride with me in that car and drove it themselves and so far the consensus was: It sounds healthy, feels healthy and runs healthy. Never heard any pinging / detonation whatsoever.

I drive it during the summer only, never short distances, so the engine always gets time to heat up properly and stay warm for 2-3 hours and we drive mostly in warm to hot weather. It sees everything, from staying in mild traffic, moderate cruising up to wide open throttle action through the gears.

All what happened I am describing below was with the help of a very good friend I consider very knowledgable in all the tests we did and although it is possible that we made mistakes, it is very unlikely. If I had it done myself, I would been in doubt, but not with him on my side.

Nevertheless... being curious, we tried to find out the timing a little while back with an Innova Timing Light #5568 and it was so far off (we could not even find the mark on the balancer), we thought that maybe the balancer slipped. So we got a piston stop tool and last weekend we measured TDC for Cylinder #1 just to find out that the dark red line on the black balancer is perfectly in the middle of our 2 marks we made using the piston stop tool and seems to point perfectly at TDC for #1. Why we did not see it the first time might have been a lighting issue (being outside in the sun and not in a workshop) or some false setting on the timing light. We do not know. The dark red line on the black balancer is pretty hard to see.

But knowing that the line on the balancer is correct, we pulled the vacuum advance canister, put on a vaccum gauge and did some tests.
What blew our minds was that the initial timing was pointing between 34° and 38°. It was pretty erratic, so we voted for it to be around 36°. Going up in RPM we had all in at around 2.800 and measured about 47°.
Shocked by what we saw we measured a few more times, checked if everything is hooked up correctly, but always with the same results.

We also pulled all plugs and had a look at each cylinder. Inside everything looks good so far. Barely any accumulation (scaling?) on the pistons, hone marks still visible, everything looked pretty clean and healthy.

Feeling uncomfortable now seeing those numbers, we pulled back the initial to 27° BTDC. Doing this we saw that the line was not as erratic anymore. It was becoming late and we called it a day. I said I will create a post in the Chevelles forum after I have another, longer test drive because there are a lot of smart people with tons of experience.

The same day I had a very brief test drive and thought that the engine sounded a bit weaker (smoother?). Also I felt that it pulled less radical from a stand still. The part where you open the throttle a tiny bit and it wants to jump forward is now a smoother process. But to be honest: I was not 100% sure and tought maybe I am thinking I hear and feel a difference because I know we changed something, so I put that thought away for now.

A few days forward, we (my wife and me) had time to take our Elky for a spin again and after a few minutes of driving she told me that she thinks the Elky sounds a little bit different! I asked her what exactly she is thinking and she told me that it does not sound as nasty, like it has better manners now. Also she said it is not pulling as hard from a stand still as it did before. I told her that we checked the ignition timing and made some changes because we were worried it is too radical and that I also thought the sound and the off-the line performance changed a bit. She then said "Well, I do not like how it sounds now, but if it is better for the engine, I guess I will be able to live with it."

Unfortunately, when I bought the car back in 2017 (a century old dream by the way and I am so happy I can drive such an exotic classic over here where I live!), the dealer I got it from did not know what was done to the engine. After I bought it, I brought it to a shop who did all the necessary work on it to get it registered here and when they did the oil change they said that what came out looked like break in oil. Since almost everything else on the car looked fresh too, we assumed that the engine must have been rebuilt only recently as a part of the restoration of the El Camino. I tell you that, because unfortunately I do not know what exactly was done to the engine when it was rebuilt. I can give you a few facts, stuff that was measurable for us and / or visible from the outside, so I hope this helps a bit.

Engine
Displacement: 454
Block Casting: 361959 (probably 1977)
Head Casting: 336781 (probably 1977)
Oil Pan: Milodon Street & Strip Low Profile
Carburretor: Edelbrock Performer 750 (1407)
Intake Manifold: Edelbrock RPM Air-Gap
Rockers: Scorpion Roller Rockers 1.7 Ratio
Vaccum: At 650 RPM Idle it pulls 10 inHg
Ignition: MSD Street Fire HEI

Fuel
I run it at 95 ROZ which is I think 95 RON in the US?

Transmission
THM 350

Axle
8,2in 10-Bolt (looks like the original '64 axle to me), 3.36:1

Unfortunately the most important information which probably helps to make an educated guess in what ballpark the ignition should be is all unknown to me:
Camshaft = ? Some of you guys seem to have good hearing, so I will try to attach a few soundfiles ;-)
Any machine work on the heads / valve seats / sizes = ?
Type of lifters = ?
Compression = ? Although we made a compression test using the starter a year ago or so and we had betwen 146 PSI and 152 PSI. We figured that might be in the range of 10:1 to 10,5:1, but both of us agreed that the dynamic compression when the engine is running can be far different, also depending on the camshaft. So nothing would beat having exact measurements of the combustion chamber, deck height etc. but I don not have any of that :-(

Sorry for that wall of text, but I wanted to give you as much information as I have. I read a lot of timing posts since I have the car and I am pretty sure in one of the corvette forums someone said that he rans 36° initial, but nothing more. Could be all wrong, just a very, very specific and unique build or just not the truth. If I remember correctly I read for more or less stock 454 engines 14-16° is usual and 20° is already pretty radical. But little do I know, so I am here

I do not want to see my engine dying a slow death, so I am very confused now how to progress.

I am very interested in what you would do in my situation, what you would test and I am especially curious if you ever saw such radical timings in an engine.

Thank you very much for reading all this and Thank you for being such an invaluable resource for knowledge. These cars are pretty exotic over here and I wish I had the opportunity to grow up with these. Now that I am fortunate enough to have my dream ride, I want to preserve it as good as I can.

Here is the link to my Google Drive where I placed some Pictures, Soundfiles and Videos which might help you a bit judging what is going on or, maybe just to share my joy with you
Google Drive with Footage, Pictures and Soundfiles

• Coldstart_Garage.wav: Cold Start in the Garage, Microphone on the Seat. Pulling out backwards.
• Pulling_Through_Second.wav: Just that, Engine at around 185°F
• Idle_Outside.mov: Warmed up idle
• Idling_after_a_few_minutes.mp4: Idle after running for a few minutes, still not fully warmed up (140°F), Microphone on the seat.
• Head_Rockers.jpg: Head Number + Rockers
• Engine_Bay.jpg: Older photo, but this is how it looks, just has a different Battery and hood hinges now.

 

[jeff swisher]

Very low cranking pressure in your engine.
Either lower compression than you think or a delayed intake valve closing.
I built a 396 for a friend and I run 38 total timing 22 initial NO vacuum advance.

It is 11:1 compression with ported Oval iron GM heads 210 PSI cranking pressure [email protected] .050 cam on a 108LSA.

You could have heads that the chambers were worked over and made the flame front move slower and require more timing.
I have ran 41 and 42 total in some SBC engines for many years with no issues.
Slow burn chambers basically.
When I ran higher octane fuel than the engine wanted I would need to add more timing to get back some power.

I ran a 350" SBC with Iron 186 casting heads at 11.9 compression and 41 total timing all in by 2200 rpm.
245 psi cranking pressure 93 octane fuel.. If running 91 I had to dial it back to 38 total.

If you had a wheel/ chassis dyno you could put the car on it and watch the power and AFR with timing changes.

I go by the old school thought. Give it what it wants.

If you see not issues like Easter eggs on the plugs and hear no detonation/preignition and it runs better then run it.

 

[TexasSS]

Initial advance plus mechanical advance should usually be between 34-38 degrees at 2500+ rpm. Add to that a vacuum advance of 10-14 degrees for 44-52 degrees at 2500+ rpm no-load (cruising) advance. Seems like your 47 degrees is about right if that is mechanical plus vacuum advance.

 

[FarmerJoe]

Thank you very much to everyone who responded so far. I appreciate that very much.

Very low cranking pressure in your engine.
Either lower compression than you think or a delayed intake valve closing.

This is what I thought when I first saw that it is probably a 1977 Engine. Wasn't that the time of low compression engines when they introduced unleaded fuel?

You could have heads that the chambers were worked over and made the flame front move slower and require more timing.

I have to read up on that, but I suppose there is no way to find out later in an assembled engine, right? I wish I knew who built / machined the engine :-(

I go by the old school thought. Give it what it wants.

That´s what I read all the time and is always in my mind. My fear is, because my lack of knowledge, I might think it wants this or that and I am too unexperienced to hear it pinging. It survived 4 years of quite a bit of driving and if it was all totally wrong, I suppose I might have a dead engine already. But I do not want to take chances, so I wanted to hear some opinions and go from there. Retarding timing too far might cook my exhaust valves. Too much advanced, it will probably the pistons and bearings, right?

If you see not issues like Easter eggs on the plugs and hear no detonation/preignition and it runs better then run it.

What exactly would you look for? I know plugs can tell you about temperature and mixture. But what signs of wrong timing do you see on the plugs / what do you look for?

Initial advance plus mechanical advance should usually be between 34-38 degrees at 2500+ rpm. Add to that a vacuum advance of 10-14 degrees for 44-52 degrees at 2500+ rpm no-load (cruising) advance. Seems like your 47 degrees is about right if that is mechanical plus vacuum advance.

Yes, those are the most common numbers I usually see when looking in the forums. All we measured was with vacuum advance off, so it was all initial + what mechanical added. That´s why it was so concerning to us.
The vacuum advance canister added another 10° on idle, we did not check it when adding revs. Somehow totally forgot to measure this too.


General question: That erratic behaviour of the marking on the balancer (jumping back and forth a few degrees), is this a sign of wrong timing? It went away as we retarded timing about 10°, but I wonder what it tells us. Could it be still dialed in correctly, but a radical cam leading to a rough idle can cause this too?

 

[jeff swisher]

Some pictures of detonation on plugs.

Spark Plugs

If it is a stocker 454 from that era it can have very low compression.
Until someone builds one just like yours with same cam etc they will not know what timing it may like.

4 years of fun times at that tune I would bet you are fine.

Here is a story.
Friend rebuilt his 396" engine with a friend of his.."old guy".
Old guy did a re-ring and re-bearing and slapped in the cheapest timing chain set he could get.
No lube on the chain as I was told.
Anyway 1 year passes by and friend can't make it run right.
I built his carb for him and it was one of my daily driver carbs I ran on my old car.

I messed with the tune for an hour and it wanted 34 initial and 39 total.
Without all that initial it ran terrible.

I told him the timing chain must be worn out.
I said pull the cover and call me tomorrow.

He did and stated the chain could almost come off the gears without removing the gears.

To check a slack timing chain you can remove the distributor cap.
Rotate the engine by hand and watch the rotor in the distributor move.
Now rotate the engine the other direction and see how long it takes for the distributor to move.

 

[pbcbob]

the starter is spinning good for 34 deg of initial timing, as for the timing moving, take the distributor out and look over the gear teeth and end play

 

[FarmerJoe]

@jeff swisher Thank you very much for the link with the Spark plug pictures. That´s very educational! We had the plugs out, but will do it again. You barely notice stuff you do not know you had to look for!
The timing chain story sounds scary. You do not want that chaim to jump a tooth or two :-(

@jeff swisher & @pbcbob: Checking for slack / end play sounds pretty easy to do. Thank you very much!

 

[71350SS]

@jeff swisher Thank you very much for the link with the Spark plug pictures. That´s very educational! We had the plugs out, but will do it again. You barely notice stuff you do not know you had to look for!
The timing chain story sounds scary. You do not want that chaim to jump a tooth or two :-(

@jeff swisher & @pbcbob: Checking for slack / end play sounds pretty easy to do. Thank you very much!

361959

If your 454 has a factory OE (original equipment) timing chain it is most probably worn out enough to affect your timing readings.In that era the factory used a hard plastic covering over the camshaft gear that was used for various reasons.As this plastic wore away it allowed the chains slop to affect the way the engine ran.
But don't worry a timing chain repair is a straight forward replacement job for an experienced mechanic or owner who's experienced at automotive repairs.It isn't a quick job but it can be done correctly if you take your time.Also replacement of the chain and gear set will be with a steel gear or a double roller steel gear set.So no more plastic to wear away any longer.

 

[David Ray]

Another Top Fueler for the street. Pin pulled on the grenade.

 

[FarmerJoe]

If your 454 has a factory OE (original equipment) timing chain it is most probably worn out enough to affect your timing readings....

That's also a very good advice, Thank you very much!
When I bought the Elky, at least from the outside everything looked fresh. New freeze plugs, rockers, waterpump, distributor, headers, whatever you see from the outside or removing the cylinder-head covers, hone marks in the cylinders, break in oil, I mean everything you can see from the outside in some form seemed to be brand new / has been machined recently.

But of course you never know how the parts look that are not as easily accessible. It could be a good show outside and slapped together with old, used parts on the inside. So slack on the timing chain is something to check for and if it is I already learned from you what to look for and a better way to fix it than it was OE. In hindsight something I could have checked from the outside right in the beginning... if you know how and even know that it is an option.

This is why I come here, ask questions and try to learn from the smart and experience people here on chevelles.com.

So thanks again to everyone sharing your experience with me. Your help is appreciated very much and helps me maintaining and keeping that beautiful machinery in a good enough shape to pass it to another generation (if we do not run out of fuel before ;-) ).

 

[69-CHVL]

FWIW my 9.5:1 502 wants 30* of initial timing...any less it loses vacuum and overall idle quality. On the other hand, my 6.0 LS wants 12* - no more. Each engine is unique - give it what it wants.

 

[Leadhead]

Like Jeff said, check the slop in the timing chain by the method he described. Really easy to do.