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r134a numbers with stock Condenser & replacement POA

10K views 77 replies 9 participants last post by  hjdca 
#1 ·
Hi Guys, I have my Chevelle converted to R134a with the replacement POA, Sanden Compressor, stock Condenser, & new Dryer. In 100 deg. temperatures, the best I can get on the fwy is 55 deg. out of the center vent. At idle, 925 rpm, it reads up to 65 deg. out of the center vent in 100 deg. heat.

When starting the cold Chevelle in 90 degree weather in the shade at 1400 rpm, here are my r134a readings with no fan upfront. I am running the stock clutch fan. What do you think about these numbers ?

At cold startup to around 10 min. to warm up.

Low side High side
44 155
43 155
42 170
44 175
48 185
50 195
52 200
53 210

Of course, the air in the car is much colder at first startup and the air gets warmer as the Chevelle warms up.

I am thinking I need a new parallel flow condenser from original air to get lower temperatures. What do you think ? Thanks for any advice.
 
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#2 ·
I have been playing with 69--72 Chevelles A/C units for many years. Just so you know. I get 38-40 degrees out of my center vent, Using a Temp. gauge from Advance.
If you are going to convert to R-134, Its a pay me now or pay me later.
A stock org. condenser will WORK very well "" IF "" you can maintain a speed of 35-40 M.P.H..... WHY? The stock cond. has tubes about 3/8" in dia., SO what. R-134 runs a lot hotter than R-12. ( It has a VERY different expansion rate, It runs about 20% HOTTER ) So, I would advise using a P.Flow cond.
The stock Org. A/C hoses.... R-134 will bleed through the stock hoses WHY?
R-134 has smaller molecules than R-12. I use R12/R-134 compatible hoses.
The Factory installed evaporator, Well chances are it is plugged up a bit, Wadda ya mean? Can you guess how many Cubic feet of air has gone through this unit in " 50 " years. ( I replaced my evaporator a while back.) WHY?
It was plugged shut around the edges and It was tough to see through. The new condenser, WOW, I could watch-T.V. through it!
The R-134 Charge. If you are working with a STOCK-C-60 unit converted to R-134. Use the 80% rule. 80% of 60 ozs. = 48ozs.
Charge your Factory converted C-60 unit with "" 48 ozs. "" of R-134 and DONT EVEN LOOK AT THE GAUGES. I drove my 70 to the Ohio show last week, The wife said turn on the A/C, FAN is on 4--- She says toooo kold turn it down, Now fan on 3--- She says toooo KOLd.... Fan is now on " 2 " it got a little chilly so I opened a wing window. Yes my factory (converted to R-134 operating well)
Also.......... If you can find a load of R-12 go that route, NOTHING is better than a factory unit with " R-12 " being pump through the system.
Yes, I said nothing is better than " R-12 ".:thumbsup:
Be KOOL
Bob
 
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#3 ·
What's a replacement POA? A POA eliminator kit or a rebuilt POA? Do you know where the rebuilt POA valve pressure is set?

Do you have a positive shutoff for coolant to the heater core? I prefer a ball valve over the stock vac operated valve. If you can feel heat after the valve, it's flowing heat into the suitcase. The more heat you can keep out of the suitcase the better.

At 90 degrees ambient, you are looking for 250-270 psi on the high side. I'd probably shoot for 260. If you can charge to that and maintain your low side below 55psi, you should get some lower temps at the evap. Place a box fan in front of the radiator while charging and hold 1500rpm. A HD or severe duty fan clutch will move more air, it may help. I hope you are running a fan shroud. I know for a fact that a parallel flow condenser will get you better and more consistant cooling. But think you can still get more out of what you are currently running.

Your low side pressure is swinging high, so watch them as you charge. Make sure your TVX bulb is tight against the evap tube and well insulated with tar insulation tape.

If you have a temp gun, get a temp for the inlet line and outlet line from the condenser and evap. For the evap, measure temp from the the outlet of the TXV valve and outlet of the evap. Get the center vent temp and ambient temp too. Any time the ambient temp changes, I'll need to see gauge readings high and low.

I'm seeing some things I'm not liking. Your low side is running a little high. If you charge and it holds or drops and vent temps drop you should be ok. If it starts coming up, your POA or TXV valve may be releasing too much pressure. Is your POA valve frosting up?
 

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#5 ·
Thanks for your reply ! It is a POA eliminator kit with the Sanden compressor, so maybe I should check the TXV ? How should the TXV bulb be attached to the evap tube ? Should I use a hose clamp or just clamp it with the tar insulation tape. The compressor is running full time. I get no frosting. The low side tube is cold and the high side tube is hot. The Cold side tube gets slightly warmer as the Chevelle gets hotter at 1400 rpm. I am running the stock 7 blade fan with shroud and heavy duty clutch fan and Griffin radiator. The motor stays cool at idle with the air conditioning on.
 
#7 ·
Thanks Al. You were right. My TVX bulb was not tight against the evap tube and there was adhesive all over both. I cleaned the bulb (3M adhesive remover works) and the tube and attached it with a zip tie on top of the tube instead of the bottom. Then, I reapplied the tar. Here are some pics. I am going to retest now and will post results. Thanks again.





 
#9 ·
That could do it. Fingers crossed here!:grin2:

Feel the backside of the heater shut off tube. Those sometimes leak, any added heat to the suitcase will degrade you temp potential through the evap. This becomes more important if the seals are old or the actuator doors are not sealing completely.
 
#6 ·
The OEM --TXV was held in place with Factory clamps. I use two small nylon ties and pull it down tight and use the tar tape. I have not used a POA eliminator, and never will.
You can get a C-60 to blow some cold air using all the stock parts. Adjust your P.O.A. for R-134 /// P. Flow condenser /// I am using a 10 Cyl. ( R-134) compressor from the Fla. guys ( painted black) Stock replacement for the A-6.
A new Evap. core aint a bad idea. Being KOOL is not cheeeeeep!
Over charging a C-60 system is real easy. I have done it. If you ever change the Evaporator. Pull the engine side of the suitcase OFF. It will fall out.
No need to mess with the inner fender and the blower side of the suitcase.
Bob
 
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#8 ·
Mount your bulb at the 4 or 8 o'clock position. You can hold it there with a hose clamp or zipties if you like, just don't get too crazy tight and bend the tubes. Usually, the tar/foil tape will hold it without any mechanical means of connection.

Without your high pressure at the required pressure on the chart, it's difficult for me to tell what will happen as you charge the system to the correct high pressure for ambient temp. If the low side goes up in pressure as you charge, you can stop. With that system, your low pressure should read 21-28 psi on the low side. As the low side pressure switch determines when the compressor will cycle off. It does this to maintain the evap at a temp above freezing, which about 27 psi, but it's set lower to counter airflow over the evap.

You have a choice, charge to specified high pressure, and see what happens to the low side pressures, I can't determine what will happen, I need a fully charged system on the high side and right now you are undercharged OR

Change out the TVX valve and you may as well upgrade to a parallel flow condenser since you have to recover the refrigerant. You should also change the drier anytime you open the system. Not sure you will be happy with a system that retains the stock condenser. Your temp swings will be greater with the stock condenser and lackluster at idle or in traffic.

When you started, was this a closed system that was still retaining pressure? Then you swapped in the compressor and poa eliminator and replaced the drier? You did evacuate the system? Did you add any oil? Are you using a refrigerant that is free of oil and sealants? I need to know where you stand...as in what you did, the condition before you started and your procedure to this point. This will help insure that all bases are covered.

Your system should incorporate a high pressure shut off switch to protect the compressor from high side pressures.
 

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#11 ·
The stock condenser is going to drop off in cooling performance anytime it's not getting enough flow. The parallel condenser will drop off much less. If you can bump your airflow through the condenser at slow speeds it will drop off less.

I think you can get your temps down, but need to see gauge readings and ambient to advise. Is the clutch cycling now? If it's not cycling, an adjustment to the low-pressure cycling switch and a bump in high side pressure may be all you need to see better temps at speed. If it cycles too much, you'll often feel the air warm a bit when the compressor shuts off. So a charge where the compressor stays on the longest will result in even cooling but maybe not as cool. Most of these systems will pull down to about 40 degrees if everything is working correctly and there's no extra heat entering the suitcase. Holding at 40 at idle requires a clean evaporator, good parallel flow condenser, and adequate airflow through the condenser. I'll be around tomorrow, my job canceled. Let's see what you come up with.

Do you know which fan clutch you are using? If it's a standard duty, changing to the Heavy Duty or Severe Duty will tighten up the fan at idle, the cost is lower mpg's and more fan noise. It will also kick in sooner.

Sealing the condenser to the rad will increase the pull through the condenser from the fan.
 
#12 ·
Hi Al, no the Sanden compressor is on all the time, it is not cycling. I am not sure how to adjust the cycling, except the low pressure shut off in the electrical connection on the POA Eliminator. I am running the Hayden heavy duty clutch fan with the stock 7 blade fan and stock shroud. Tomorrow, i will try to get more data. Thanks again.
 
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#13 ·
That low pressure switch on the poa eliminator is what will control all the cycling of your compressor. That pdf shows how to set it. The high pressure switch that should be somewhere in the system will only cycle out if the pressures reach about 400psi on the high side. You should never see this pressure in a properly functioning system, but a poorly functioning condenser could push you up that high.

Are you still running the complete stock wiring system with just the addition of the poa low press switch?

Make sure to purge your gauges before hooking them up. Don't want to be forcing air in each time you hook up. Most of the better gauge sets will hold pressure in the lines. The yellow one will hold pressure if you close and keep the can tap connected. A mistake I've seen made is not closing the valve and removing the empty can, filling the yellow hose with air and not purging. Ends up
pushing a nice amount of air into the system.

We'll catch you tomorrow.
 
#15 · (Edited)
Hi Al, New test today, here are some pics. Cold Motor shut off, high side and low side showed 92 psi. Here is a pic before starting the motor, you can see my POA eliminator hookup and the sanden compressor is below the alternator. I am running the march serpentine belt system.



Here is a pic of the dryer window after running the air cond. for a while



Ok, here are the numbers I got. The test was done in my garage which was 85 deg.. ambient. No fan in front and not much room for cooling. Big block at 1400 rpm.

low side, high side, center vent temp., time
43, 145, 59, 0 min
40, 148, 53, 1 min
40, 150, 52, 2 min
39, 155, 51, 3 min.
39, 165, 51, 4 min.
41, 175, 53, 5 min.
44, 185, 55, 6 min.
46, 198, 57, 7 min.

Temperature in the garage near the front of the motor after 7 min. is now 107 deg. I shut it down for 5 min. Motor is now warmed up but, not hot.

Restart - Temp is 95 deg. infront of the Chevelle

53, 210, 65, 1 min.
55, 245, 65, 2 min.
55, 250, 65, 3 min.

It does seem that the Expansion valve temp sensor fix helped, but, I am thinking I need a parallel flow condenser, new expansion valve, new dryer.

Note: The Sanden compressor and dryer have been in the Chevelle since 2006, but, have not been used much. I had to get the suitcase/evaporator fan motor, evaporator, heater core all straightened out first. I will have to evacuate the system for the new parts, and I am wondering how to validate that my Sanden compressor is 100 percent ?

I am going for a spin now in the summer heat and see how low the center vent temp goes. To be cont.....
 
#14 ·
To help the airflow when you are in a static position. I use the 3947772 fan blade and a clutch from a mid -eightys Suburban. This combo will move a lot of air through the P.Flow cond. ( the mid 80s Burb. fan clutch is a PERFECT match for the 772 blade.)
Its an over the counter part at a Chevy. Dlr. Hey now, Good Luck and be KOOL !
Bob
 
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#17 ·
We're not going to get an accurate pressure reading with the car in the garage. We need a steady ambient airflow through the cond to get the info we need. Also, starting the system from a heat-soaked state won't help us either. The engine needs to be running and temps and pressures stabilized to get numbers we can rely on.

Do you need to go into the suitcase to do any cleaning or work? Sort of bummed if the answer is yes, because I would like to pull the evap and flush it along with the rest of the system if you decide to install new parts. Starting from scratch will allow accurate oil levels in the system. Compressor, drier and txv valves are never flushed.

Your compressor is outputting necessary pressures. I would pull it if you install new parts, drain and measure the oil in a pan with a paper towel in the bottom. Check for metal debris. Spin the input shaft to remove all the oil, then refill. If you are not seeing metal flake in the oil, not hearing strange noises or seeing oily buildup around the input shaft your compressor is probably fine.

Lack of cooling can be caused by moisture in the system. Replacing the drier is a must when opening the system. If the system was open for any length of time, it's probably got a lot of moisture and contaminants in the system. Don't uncap your drier until you are ready to evacuate the system.

The sight glass looks ok, 134a is a greenish cloudy color. You can tell if the oil is streaking on the glass, I don't see it in yours but I'm not seeing the realtime flow. The sight glass on 134 will usually still show some bubbles on a properly charged system. You'll almost always see a rush of bubbles when the compressor kicks in.

TXVvalve, yeah I would replace that if the system gets opened to change out the cond.

If you want to peak the current system, we'll need some accurate numbers with the system stabilized, engine at 1500rpm and a good consistent flow of air through the cond with an accurate ambient temp reading.
 
#18 ·
Hi Al, thanks for your help. I decided to throw money at it. I ordered a new parallel flow condenser, new evaporator, & new expansion valve from Original air. In addition, I know my compressor has not been treated right the last 14 years - exposed to air, leaks in the old POA eliminator valve (which I had to replace) Never evacuated, etc... It is a March P411 compressor, so, I will not take a chance, and I will also order a new one.

The suitcase was cleaned out when the engine bay was painted. In addition, I cleaned it out again, and re-sealed it well when I changed the squirrel cage fan motor. The evaporator looked good. I do not plan to mess with the suitcase.

So the plan is - new March P411 compressor, new parallel flow compressor, new expansion valve, new dryer. Let me know if you have any other recommendations. When I get the parts, I will resurrect this thread so you can follow. Thanks.
 
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#25 ·
Here's a thread for you guys from an a/c site I belong to. It shows the thought behind setting up a POA system a/c system on 134a on a 70 Nova which has the same a/c system as the Chevelle. It also shows how to test and calibrate the POA valve on the car. I've attached a video of that process.

It's well written and may offer a few pointers and insight that will help when you do your a/c system restore. https://www.autoacforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3096

Below is a pdf file of the same thread. The a/c forum is slow and hard to access at times. It's almost like their server is on dial up. The last pdf covers flushing the system.

When you install your parallel flow condenser, you want to take full advantage of the airflow offered by your cooling system. It should not be mounted tightly against the radiator as this will add heat to the condenser. Seal up any gaps between the radiator and condenser to force the flow through the condenser. The more airflow you have through the condenser, the more efficient your a/c system will be.

Listen for the pop sound when he pressurized the system...pop test, means poa is functioning. Fro there it can be adjusted. When you install the poa and TXV, pour a little refrig oil through them and then allow them to drain. This helps them open and function when you charge the system. If you want to store poa, run the oil through them and store in a ziplock. As long as there is oil coating the insides, it will last for a long storage period. POA's out of systems that have been open for extended periods will deteriorate and need to be rebuilt and calibrated. When switching from r12 to 134a, the valve also needs recalibration as seen in the video.

 

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#27 ·
With the numbers listed it’s looking like you have a valve out inside the compressor.
Normal high side and high low side. Or a faulty metering device.( overloading the evaporator with refrigerant)
Line temperatures would really help in diagnosing the problem.
 
#29 ·
The line temperatures were never that great. Cold line was cold, hot line was hot, but, not like my other cars. The old Sanden compressor really squeals the belt when you first turn it on, and I have the belt tight, so, I do not trust it anymore. Compressor off, equalized pressure was 91 PSI. The low side gets there pretty fast after tuning off the motor.

The new chrome compressor - MCH-P412 is already here. The new PF condenser, dryer, expansion valve are already shipped. I am waiting on the Evaporator and r134 POA valve to be shipped. The compressor uses Sanden SP-15 PAG oil, so, that is what I will be using in the system. I am changing every major part of the system, so, I expect the pressures to change drastically for the better. Stay tuned. Thanks.
 
#28 ·
When you shut the ac off how fast does the suction line get hot?
 
#31 · (Edited)
The parallel flow condenser, dryer, & expansion valve arrived from Original air (Tampa, Fl). It looks like it will work perfect with all my old lines, and the mounting brackets look perfect. :smile2: I like how the dryer and condenser are painted black. I am still waiting on the evaporator and r134a POA valve. Here are some pics of the condenser:







 
#33 ·
To much oil in the system is as bad as to little. Oil doesn’t stay in one spot it moves with the refrigerant. If the compressor calls for 11 ounces of oil that’s how much you put into a new system. At any given time that oil will be moving throughout the system.
If you replace a component. You will need to add some oil back in. Best way would be to measure the oil in the removed part. If you guess you could have to much or to little.
 
#36 ·
All the parts from Original Air (Tampa) arrived. I started the Parallel flow Condenser job last night after work. I am embarrassed to tell you how long it took me to do the swamp. I could do it in less than half the time now... lol. Some recommendations that I followed from this forum -- only remove the front bolts from the bumper, use a jack to lower and raise the bumper, air rachet makes things go much faster, there is a lot of screw turning. The new parallel flow condenser fit perfect. My old lines fit perfect, only some slight bending. I will install the new compressor, new expansion valve and new POA valve today. I will probably install the evaporator on thursday, then hook up the vacuum and charge. Here are some pics from last night.

Disassembly of front end to put in new Parallel Flow Condenser:
















Here are installation pics of the new Parallel Flow Condenser and Dryer:







More to come the next few days as I do the compressor, evaporator, expansion valve.
 
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#37 ·
Ok, I replaced the Evaporator, POA, and Expansion Valve tonight. As explained in the forum, I was able to just remove half of the suitcase to remove the Evaporator. I had to take my tall valve cover off to get enough clearance. I used black weather seal gum to seal up the suit case. Note: I had already removed the other half of the suitcase a few years ago to upgrade my fan motor, but, I did not notice all the trash in the other half. Some of my old Evaporator was clogged with dirt and leaves, and there were a lot of leaves in the suitcase. I also jacked up the front of the Chevelle and took the front passenger tire off. I got to some of the bolts from underneath or through the wheel well opening. Here are some pics of the install:

Original POA eliminator and old Evaporator







Some cob webs and leaves in the Evaporator and in the suitcase. I cleaned it out good.





New Evaporator, New R134a POA, and New Expansion Valve Installed:











Tomorrow, I change the Compressor, finish buttoning it up (all the lines have been cleaned and taped), vacuum, and Charge. I will report my results.
 
#38 ·
Nice work Harry. It always cracks me up when someone says their 50 year old evaporator has never been cleaned but they are sure it's clean. I mean how dirty could it be? They are usually much dirtier than yours was.

Say good riddance to that POA eliminator. Hello cool consistent airflow.:grin2: It's not cheap to be cool and being cool aint cheap.;)
 
#39 ·
Thanks. I was expecting my suitcase to be clean. I was shocked how dirty it was, especially since I replaced the blower motor on the other side a few years back and blew some air from my compressor into the other side of the suitcase. It cleaned nothing.... I was fighting an air cond. air flow speed issue back then, and went through all my ducts and bought a new fan motor---- I should have cleaned the other side of the suitcase...lol.
 
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#40 ·
Now you know why I ask folks, " Can you guess how many Cu. Ft. of " OUTSIDE DIRTY AIR " has gone through the evaporator in the last 40 / 50 years? Many folks have told my " My evaporator is nice and KLEEN ?"... DAA!
Now your air/flow will be up to specs. A lot of people do not believe me when I tell them " Being KOOL Aint CHEEEEEP".
Also the little rubber pieces ( condenser) with threads on both ends , I bought a dozen or so a while back from Granger. They were around a buck or two each. I have some spares if you need some.
Do you agree with this..... Removing a stock 1970 Chevelle A/C condenser is , Just " So much fun "...................LOL:laugh:
Can you say " Labor Intensive ".
Bob
 
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#41 ·
Yes, the Parallel flow condenser was the most work. I planned to do the whole job in two days and it took me almost a full day to do the condenser and I was beat afterwards.... The suit case was not bad, just the three bottom screws were hard to get to and my headers did not help much trying to get at them from the bottom. There was no way the suit case would come out without taking out my tall valve covers. The POA and expansion valve went smooth.

One new tip -- use 3M adhesive cleaner on your hands when you create the new seal for the suit case half. This keeps the 3M black strip calk from sticking to your hands - you can easily smooth out the calk with your fingers with 3M adhesive cleaner on your hands. This stuff also cleans up the strip calk easily.
 
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#42 ·
Ok Guys, new update, the Job is almost done.

The new compressor is installed. I went with Chrome instead of polished aluminum this time. Note: I ended up replacing all my polished aluminum accessories with Chrome the last few years or so. I just like Chrome better.









Good news. The system is holding vacuum. I changed all o-rings to green (found a couple black ones) and use mineral oil to lube them. I will run the pump for a few hours and then fill. It is super hot here... so, it's all just in time.



 
#43 ·
Ok, job it done ! After unhooking the vacuum, the low side sucked in a whole can (12 oz) of freon before I started the Chevelle. I was on the second can before I had to start the engine. On the start of the 4th can this is my readings, maybe 42 oz of freon. It was hot out - 95 to 100 deg. , in the garage, no real fan to speak of.



I ended up putting in 52 oz. of R134a. The low side ended up around 57 and the high side 245. I am not sure if I put in too much freon or not enough.

Regarding the air, the high fan is now double the volume. The right side passenger vent blows my girl friends hair back. She estimated double the volume of air. The air is also cold. It is hard to compare the vent temperatures to the previous system because the air volume is so much more. It was about 100 degrees out and we were running around at 57 from the center vent on "high" in city traffic. I did not have time to try the highway. "Normal" setting with cool outside air is now my favorite setting. Plenty of air volume and I get lots of outside air. The air temp still goes up about 4 degrees at idle but my idle is also set low - 850 rpm. I think I may crank up my idle with the air cond. "on" to 950 rpm to keep that compressor going. Overall, I am pretty happy. The cool double air volume really keeps me cool in the car.

Let me know what you guys think about my low side, high side numbers, and the amount of R134a I put in. Thanks.
 
#45 ·
Thanks! You were correct. I removed some freon, and my low side went down, and my high side went up. I took some fans from the house and aimed them at the condenser. After some freon extraction, I got 43 low side, 220 high side. It was between 80 and 85 degrees out. I went for a ride and got 37 degrees out of the center vent on "high" with "max" setting ! I was in 4th gear (manual) at 2K rpm. I think on the fwy it will go lower. Super excited about the 30's with so much air volume. I was actually cold in the Chevelle. lol. Thanks so much to you and this forum - Al, Bob, Jason, Leo.




 
#46 ·
Glad all is well....... I shot mine with around 52/54??? Way to much. Had to suck it out. I have 48 Oz. of 134 in mine and its FRICKEN KOLD, The wife said turn it down or let me out.
REMEMBER: When you make the lady happy with a KOOL KAR in the daytime. You may need the A/C at night IF things get WARM !.............:laugh:
Bob
 
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#47 ·
yes, thanks for your help. My little Sanden SD7 compressor has less displacement than the original GM, so, I calculated that out to be 2.1 oz less freon required. So, I think mine should be between 45-46 oz of R134a. I think I am close to that now, maybe still a little over. Here is a pic of my old parts pile --- all going to the dust bin. lol.

 
#48 ·
Make sure that heater control valve is shuting correctly. I had couple different valves in mine, I swear, the aftermarket valves are nothing like the original factory stuff. Both feed and return hoses were always hot, so the AC was fighting the heater core. Eventually, I put manual valve in there that I just closed during the summer.
 
#49 ·
Thanks ! I am on my third or fourth one. Two of the other ones started leaking. Both sides of my hoses have always been hot no matter what aftermarket valve I put in there. My test for the heater shutoff has been to run the "vent" on "cold" and make sure the air is outside temperature and not any hotter. The vacuum line going to the valve is good, but, with my big cam I idle around 9 or 10 in. hg.. I wonder if that lower vacuum makes a difference on the heater valve. The manual valve is a good idea...
 
#50 ·
Harry, I applaud all the hard work (and documentation) you've put into this and especially the results. I may copy/paste all the dialog and photos into a word document and save it for reference.
 
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