K&N Electronic Carb Injection - Page 2 - Chevelle Tech
EFI Caution: Beyond here be monsters...

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post #16 of 153 (permalink) Old Mar 5th, 19, 7:06 AM
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Rick
 
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Re: K&N Electronic Carb Injection

Quote:
Originally Posted by oleskoolchev View Post
Why do you assume the carb is improperly tuned? My hands-on experience with the unit shows otherwise. The carb on this car was well tuned and outperformed one of the best efi systems available. The eci made the carb run even smoother. Why all the negativity when you haven't even seen one of the units operate?

Still pass.

If the carb was properly tuned a crutch would not be needed. If you fail to see that, you fail to recognize how a properly tuned carburetor works.
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post #17 of 153 (permalink) Old Mar 5th, 19, 8:46 AM
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Re: K&N Electronic Carb Injection

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Originally Posted by Calculated Risk View Post
Still pass.

If the carb was properly tuned a crutch would not be needed. If you fail to see that, you fail to recognize how a properly tuned carburetor works.
I agree 100%.
Not to mention that the video says they use a stock LS3 injector, which is designed to run off of 58psi...not the much lower carbed fuel pressures. No way the atomization is anywhere near what it is supposed to be.

If this setup outperformed and out MPG'ed ANY current throttle body EFI system, than I'd bet my last dollar that the EFI system had issues...or it was an old, antiquated version of the FAST unit.


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post #18 of 153 (permalink) Old Mar 5th, 19, 9:01 AM
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Re: K&N Electronic Carb Injection

IMHO and experience,just more proof that people will buy anything.
"Supplemental fuel management"

I will take my 3310 all day long over any of this "stuff"
Hasn't failed me in 18 years.
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post #19 of 153 (permalink) Old Mar 5th, 19, 9:52 AM
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Re: K&N Electronic Carb Injection

I looked at the manual for it and all its got for inputs is a tach, key on, and the O2. Has the option of a coolant temp sensor presumably to give you a warmup choke like function? No MAP, No TPS which are usually considered critical inputs to understand what is going on. Then you get to the stuff that really lets you dial it in like IAT and MAF which of course it doesn't have.

So it really has no way at all to anticipate what is about to happen or really what is happening now other than the o2 which is kinda too late. Maybe on a steady cruise it could do some trimming assuming you were lean to start with because it would have time to add a little then wait to see the o2 reading. If it at least had a TPS it could anticipate acceleration and give a shot of fuel but by the time it sees the tach come up or the o2 for the most part its too late.

An then like others have now mentioned and I said earlier, you have 1 or 2 injectors that are apparently intended for 58 psi running on possibly a pulsing erratic pressure between 6 and 25. How can it have any clue how much fuel is going to come out? Give it a squirt and wait several rpms for it to come out the exhaust? Think it needs more fuel so give another squirt this time at a different fuel pressure so you now have a different volume injected. Wait again not knowing if the throttle or load has changed?

I just don't get it. Like someone else said maybe late 80's or early 90's if they could have got the price down low enough. I guess since OleSkool is the only one that has seen one he will have to tell us what we are missing. I really want to know what circumstance of a well tuned carb caused someone to want to add this system. The circumstances I could imagine it maybe helping are the ones that are usually easy to tune in a carb. The tough stuff I can't see it helping.
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Sorry no Chevelle, 73 Cadillac Eldorado - Fairly stock low comp 500cid.
FiTech Go4 600 - Timing control via gutted 7 pin large cap HEI - Fuel RobbMc Powersurge with returns.
Previous system was Megasquirt w/Holley TBI so I am not new to DIY EFI
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post #20 of 153 (permalink) Old Mar 5th, 19, 11:04 AM
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Re: K&N Electronic Carb Injection

2001 yep awesome stuff, 2019 not so awesome.

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post #21 of 153 (permalink) Old Mar 5th, 19, 11:13 AM
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Re: K&N Electronic Carb Injection

I thought of one place this would likely work great. On a dyno. Constant and steady so plenty of time for it to respond and adjust.

Sorry no Chevelle, 73 Cadillac Eldorado - Fairly stock low comp 500cid.
FiTech Go4 600 - Timing control via gutted 7 pin large cap HEI - Fuel RobbMc Powersurge with returns.
Previous system was Megasquirt w/Holley TBI so I am not new to DIY EFI
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post #22 of 153 (permalink) Old Mar 5th, 19, 11:42 AM
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Re: K&N Electronic Carb Injection

It can only add fuel right? It can't add air. So it can only help a lean condition. If your car runs like crap because it is pig rich, no way that can help. Impossible, unless it has a built in air bleed, to lean it out then adds fuel back in, but that would totally ruin idle. I wonder if the instructions say something like re-jetting or lowering floats to lean out the carb first.


EDIT, from their site:
"Will the ECI only help if the carburetor is running too lean?
Yes. The ECI is designed to only help when the engine is lean—you set the parameters of the AFR, and any time that the air/fuel ratio goes above that reading, the ECI then injects fuel. If the AFR is constantly below that reading, the injector will not fire."

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post #23 of 153 (permalink) Old Mar 5th, 19, 12:21 PM
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Re: K&N Electronic Carb Injection

Also I found this from 2 years ago.
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/raci...eci-t1602.html
That is a more coherent discussion about it. Again I get it, I understand how it could work and help. But a niche application.

1967 El Camino Malibu - Deepwater Blue
ZZ4 350, FiTech 600 complete!,Roadmaster tank, 700R4, Underdash A/C in progress, JGC Steering, 1990s truck serpentine.
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post #24 of 153 (permalink) Old Apr 1st, 19, 1:15 AM
Ed
 
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Re: K&N Electronic Carb Injection

Quote:
Originally Posted by chevymike View Post

I have a new FiTech Street EFI (the 400HP version) sitting in a box for two years now (I actually got the very first one of this model) and can't bring myself to install it because of so many issues people have. I need an EFI that is at least as reliable as a factory GM system (which do fail as well but not nearly as common). I am definitely NOT a carb tuner. I can get it close enough to run but never have it close to dialed in. It seems this K&N unit helps with not getting the carb dialed in by itself and if you do have a failure, you just keep driving as it was before the unit.
Will FiTech update your software, or is that even possible? If you phone them up, they may have empathy.
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post #25 of 153 (permalink) Old Apr 1st, 19, 11:18 AM
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Re: K&N Electronic Carb Injection

Quote:
Originally Posted by chevymike View Post
I have a new FiTech Street EFI (the 400HP version) sitting in a box for two years now (I actually got the very first one of this model) and can't bring myself to install it because of so many issues people have. I need an EFI that is at least as reliable as a factory GM system (which do fail as well but not nearly as common). I am definitely NOT a carb tuner. I can get it close enough to run but never have it close to dialed in. It seems this K&N unit helps with not getting the carb dialed in by itself and if you do have a failure, you just keep driving as it was before the unit.
I'm late to the party with the same old story.

If you want reliability from retrofit EFI, install a new fuel delivery system, be sure your electrical system is in perfect order, and do the install in a clean environment with the right tools. Do not use the FiTech Fuel Command Center or any EFI pump in a coffee can fed by a mechanical pump. An inline pump is a better solution than a pump in a can IMO, but not the inline pumps FiTech sells. Those are cheap Bosch 044 knock offs. Holley was selling the Walbro GSL392 in their inline fuel kits when they introduced the Sniper. I took note of that and used a Walbro pump in my fuel system, since I had a new fuel tank. No problems at all. They work on motors making up to 650HP NA. If you have the money, get a new EFI tank with a pump in it. Definitely the way to go. You could do an EFI tank with pump using wrecking yard parts too, but that is a whole nether level of DIY. Make sure your fuel lines are clean before hooking them up. Very critical to a successful install. All, not some of the complaints about stuck injectors are from grit in the fuel system. People like to blame it on FiTech, but FiTech didn't do their installs. They are blaming the wrong party. Use rebuildable fuel filters and check them immediately if you notice any sudden change in performance.

If you feel intimidated by installing EFI, I think that is relatively normal. Believe me that intimidation goes away once you get started with the install and find out how easy it actually is. Don't be in a hurry.

The K&N solution sounds like the stuff that use to be advertised in comic books back in the 50's. Snake oil.
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post #26 of 153 (permalink) Old Apr 1st, 19, 2:14 PM
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Re: K&N Electronic Carb Injection

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwany View Post
I'm late to the party with the same old story.

If you want reliability from retrofit EFI, install a new fuel delivery system, be sure your electrical system is in perfect order, and do the install in a clean environment with the right tools. Do not use the FiTech Fuel Command Center or any EFI pump in a coffee can fed by a mechanical pump. An inline pump is a better solution than a pump in a can IMO, but not the inline pumps FiTech sells. Those are cheap Bosch 044 knock offs. Holley was selling the Walbro GSL392 in their inline fuel kits when they introduced the Sniper. I took note of that and used a Walbro pump in my fuel system, since I had a new fuel tank. No problems at all. They work on motors making up to 650HP NA. If you have the money, get a new EFI tank with a pump in it. Definitely the way to go. You could do an EFI tank with pump using wrecking yard parts too, but that is a whole nether level of DIY. Make sure your fuel lines are clean before hooking them up. Very critical to a successful install. All, not some of the complaints about stuck injectors are from grit in the fuel system. People like to blame it on FiTech, but FiTech didn't do their installs. They are blaming the wrong party. Use rebuildable fuel filters and check them immediately if you notice any sudden change in performance.

If you feel intimidated by installing EFI, I think that is relatively normal. Believe me that intimidation goes away once you get started with the install and find out how easy it actually is. Don't be in a hurry.

The K&N solution sounds like the stuff that use to be advertised in comic books back in the 50's. Snake oil.
This 100%
I was worried most about the fuel system at first... Wiring didn't bother me in the least.
I reused my hardline 3/8 line I had on the car and did a return using 5/16 hard line that went to a charcoal canister. Hardest part was swapping out the fuel tank(I did a tank inc set up)
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post #27 of 153 (permalink) Old Apr 1st, 19, 2:47 PM
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Re: K&N Electronic Carb Injection

I'll jump in on this as well. I don't see where this is anything but snake oil and a waste of money. With the cost of self learning EFI getting really cheap and including at least MAP, IAC, AT, WT, TPS, O2 which are all needed for a well running system, why bother with an injector in a plate that might help a poorly tuned carb. I have 3 different FAST systems which all work very well and have had fully programmable AEM systems in the past which work even better. Go real EFI and don't look back!
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post #28 of 153 (permalink) Old Apr 4th, 19, 9:16 PM
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Re: K&N Electronic Carb Injection

Quote:
Originally Posted by Calculated Risk View Post
Still pass.

If the carb was properly tuned a crutch would not be needed. If you fail to see that, you fail to recognize how a properly tuned carburetor works.
If a properly tuned carb worked as well as you describe, there would have never been the need for oem or aftermarket efi. If you fail to see that, you fail to recognize there is no such thing as a properly tuned carburetor and would recognize the advantages of the eci.

I have the advantage of real world experience with the eci, you have speculation. After seeing the same car run with a fast system, then the carb-eci, I'll pass on the efi.
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post #29 of 153 (permalink) Old Apr 4th, 19, 9:37 PM
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Re: K&N Electronic Carb Injection

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chevy67 View Post
I'll jump in on this as well. I don't see where this is anything but snake oil and a waste of money. With the cost of self learning EFI getting really cheap and including at least MAP, IAC, AT, WT, TPS, O2 which are all needed for a well running system, why bother with an injector in a plate that might help a poorly tuned carb. I have 3 different FAST systems which all work very well and have had fully programmable AEM systems in the past which work even better. Go real EFI and don't look back!
The carburetor-eci outruns the fast system at close to 1/4 the actual all-in price of each. The recommendation of an efi-friendly fuel tank was the last straw for the owner. He's very happy with his snake oil.

I suppose that I'd also be skeptical of going back to a carburetor if I'd invested so much into efi as you have. I don't know for sure, but it looks to me like K&N is targeting those who want to keep their carburetor and wish to improve the way the car runs, not those with many thousands $$ invested in efi.
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post #30 of 153 (permalink) Old Apr 4th, 19, 10:19 PM
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Re: K&N Electronic Carb Injection

Quote:
Originally Posted by 73Eldo View Post
I looked at the manual for it and all its got for inputs is a tach, key on, and the O2. Has the option of a coolant temp sensor presumably to give you a warmup choke like function? No MAP, No TPS which are usually considered critical inputs to understand what is going on. Then you get to the stuff that really lets you dial it in like IAT and MAF which of course it doesn't have.

So it really has no way at all to anticipate what is about to happen or really what is happening now other than the o2 which is kinda too late. Maybe on a steady cruise it could do some trimming assuming you were lean to start with because it would have time to add a little then wait to see the o2 reading. If it at least had a TPS it could anticipate acceleration and give a shot of fuel but by the time it sees the tach come up or the o2 for the most part its too late.

An then like others have now mentioned and I said earlier, you have 1 or 2 injectors that are apparently intended for 58 psi running on possibly a pulsing erratic pressure between 6 and 25. How can it have any clue how much fuel is going to come out? Give it a squirt and wait several rpms for it to come out the exhaust? Think it needs more fuel so give another squirt this time at a different fuel pressure so you now have a different volume injected. Wait again not knowing if the throttle or load has changed?

I just don't get it. Like someone else said maybe late 80's or early 90's if they could have got the price down low enough. I guess since OleSkool is the only one that has seen one he will have to tell us what we are missing. I really want to know what circumstance of a well tuned carb caused someone to want to add this system. The circumstances I could imagine it maybe helping are the ones that are usually easy to tune in a carb. The tough stuff I can't see it helping.
Not a sales guy by any stretch, but I'll share my experience. (fwiw: I had the same questions as you, until I got it right in my head that the eci is only a supplement to the carburetor.) I kept trying to view it as a full on efi and carburetor, but finally realized that most of the systems & sensors needed for efi are handled mechanically by a carburetor. Once I viewed the eci for what it really is, it made better sense.

We first tuned the carburetor as best we could w/o the eci and found that when we got the cold start and warm up rich enough to run smooth, it was quite rich at operating temp. 200F. So we leaned the idle circuit so that it ran smoothly at operating temp but it did not idle as smooth as we wanted when cold because it was lean. We turned the eci on and using the default software setup, the idle and cold part throttle was quite a bit smoother. We did the same routine with cruise speed and wot. After several test drives with laptop in hand in the passenger seat and adjusting the eci software on the fly, we ended up with a smooth engine at all temp's and start ups and very fast wot.

The fuel pressure deal was a little weird. The carb runs at 6 psi with a cheap Holley dead-head regulator and Carter electric pump. We initially teed into the fuel line so that the eci injector used the same pressure as the carb. After our test drives were done, we moved the tee in front of the regulator so that the injector operated at max pump pressure. The car ran exactly the same! We thought it would be rich, but it wasn't. So we left it like that.
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