power windows and locks into 68-72 wagons - Chevelle Tech
Wagons & Four Doors Wagons & 4 Door Forum

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
post #1 of 27 (permalink) Old Dec 14th, 14, 1:34 AM Thread Starter
Senior Tech Team
Tom
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Riverside County, California
Posts: 1,198
power windows and locks into 68-72 wagons

Posting this here because after I searched there seemed to be more electric window stuff in this section than in "Electrical". Also, figured this could help more TC members than just the Wagon folks. If wrong, moderators please move.

This is going to be a long initial post, and a long string of posts, but I think it’ll be of value to someone. Hope it helps those wanting to do what I did for my 1970 Chevelle Concours wagon…

OK, going way back, I have been lucky enough to have been exposed to cars with power windows and locks. Not a deal breaker on any car I acquired later, but always kept my eyes open for parts to convert then from manual to power. Did a ‘72 Monte back in the mid 80’s when power accessories for these cars were dirt common in the yards. Even my ‘79 GMC van and ‘71 Mustang fastback have power windows; the van has power locking too.

Initially I was going to try using parts from a GM van, as the mechanism and its articulation are very similar to that of a wagon and I have much familiarity with the systems. But I had a change of direction come my way.

In June of 2011, while keeping my eyes open for other wagon stuff I needed, I found someone parting a Vista Cruiser and selling the power doors very cheap complete. Problem was, they were at the other end of the state. Got in contact and bought the window lift mechs for the price of the doors and had them keep the rest. Unfortunately they had hacked the door boots and wiring. But at least I would have the lifts to start fitting stuff up and figure out how to mod it to make it work. So I hoped. Worked it out long distance, and waited for my parts. And waited…

Meanwhile, in October 2011, as the back and forth on the above deal was dragging, badly, and my continued searches for shtuff turned up more parts I needed for other parts of the frame swap, another VC was being sold on the east coast. Basically it was being sold for parts. Cheaply. Included with this parts vehicle was a set of power window doors, this time with wiring. So, what do I do? Still don’t have the stuff from up north, can’t reach that seller, this could be another good deal…

I contacted the seller of the VC, who has sold the car! But the buyer didn’t want the doors, just wanted the front clip. So the doors are available. So I strike a deal, and buy another more complete power window system. Then, at the end of October, the first set of lifts is shipped and arrives!

By the end of 2011, after much back-n-forth, I get everything aligned for shipping of the second set of lifts with the wiring. Finally arrives after the first of the year. Somewhere in the intervening months I had tried the lift mechs from the earlier purchase and found the front lifts fit and work and are perfect. They should, front doors of a long roof (Vista) wagon are the same as a flat roof (Chevelle). Rears, ah the rears are another matter. The length of the door makes for everything being spaced out differently enough to make just popping in the lifts a no-go. Well, I tell myself I’ll figure something out. I want power windows!

Now, much earlier than this (Fall 2010), I had been looking for a frame, and found a guy 2 hours away that had a complete Vista frame for sale. I knew if I put an El Camino frame under my wagon I would need boxed-style-chassis fuel and brake lines, so called him up to see what he had. Didn’t have a good conversation, but found out he had a complete set of rust-free, nice inner door panel, Vista doors with power windows and locks, complete with wiring. But he was very proud of them, so after all I decided I didn’t need them that badly.

Fast forward to March and April of 2012, I am seeing on other ‘Net sites a set of full power doors being sold in Southern California for a lot of $$$, but less that the asking on the ones from 2010. And then, in June of 2012, a rust damaged set with ugly panels shows up for sale locally. Same as the first set from 2010? Dunno, but yeah, wanted those power locks, uh-huh.

Still with me here? Too long a post?

So, anyway, after much back-n-forthing trying to set up a meeting, late September 2012 I secured a third and final set of power window and lock stuff, and with this set, I got the doors. So now I could figure out how to make the rear lifts fit and work.

Which I did.

"Just remember, your last car is always a station wagon." chaos10meter, on The H.A.M.B.
chevygod is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #2 of 27 (permalink) Old Dec 14th, 14, 1:36 AM Thread Starter
Senior Tech Team
Tom
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Riverside County, California
Posts: 1,198
Re: power windows and locks into 68-72 wagons

Putting this together for posting has been a b!tch… I have found I took pics I thot I didn’t, and didn’t take pics I thot I did. Couldn’t find templates I made. Lost the reference notes on the hole sizes in the doors and body, several-several times. Also, in some case, I just don’t remember what I did last week, let alone last year or 2 -3 years ago. So, bear with me, if something isn’t clear, ask, and I’ll try to figure it out. Also, I found tons of pics of cars with power windows and locks for switch placement, as well as pics here posted by Jim of his power lock 72 402 sedan that show wire routing. I’m not posting these as they are readily available elsewhere for reference.

Anyway, the project gets under way…

So, starting out, I took pics of the routing of the wiring for the power gate window. This was so I can put the gate window wiring back where it belongs and to help with routing the power window and lock wiring. Everything goes in roughly the same area and routing.





Laid out here is the complete power window harness from the second purchase


This is the actual harness end for a power window AND gate VC. I imagine a factory PW with PGate Chevelle wagon has a similar connector harness, but I didn’t. With this you only need one relay. Eventually I decided to install 2 relays and not hack into complete harnesses to mod them to this configuration.


After stripping all of the parts pertaining to the windows from the front doors (incl the vent windows) I removed the front doors to use a hole saw in the door and hinge pillar to make the conduit boot holes.

The numbers I am posting here are what I have written down and used, and don’t match what I have as measurements from actual parts. However, I did make the holes on the smaller side and then opened them up a little during the deburring and cleanup after cutting with the hole saw. Just so you know…

The boot ends for the front doors measure approx 2.12” diam on the door end and 2.47” diam on the body end. In order to have a nice fit, the door with a 1-7/8” diameter hole saw and the body was cut with a 2-1/4” diameter hole saw. Actual measurement of the GM punched hole in the door is 2” diam, but I have found a 2” hole saw leaves a hole larger than 2” and a loose fit on the boot. Edges of the holes were gently deburred with a grinding stone on a die grinder, which also opened the hole for a nice fit on the boot. I say “gently” because one doesn’t want to grind too much out or the boots will fit loosely. Remember, I actually went one size tighter on the hole saw to help avoid this.

Open air...

Holes in passenger side


The grinding stone I used has been used for many hole and edge deburring operations and shows it. The groove helps keep it from jumping away from the edge. Custom…

"Just remember, your last car is always a station wagon." chaos10meter, on The H.A.M.B.
chevygod is offline  
post #3 of 27 (permalink) Old Dec 14th, 14, 1:43 AM Thread Starter
Senior Tech Team
Tom
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Riverside County, California
Posts: 1,198
Re: power windows and locks into 68-72 wagons

Once doors are rehung, I led the door harness and boot thru from the inside of the cowl. The oval hole in the inner cowl reinforcement at the top of the picture is where the left door and crossbody harness goes thru to lead up and over to the other side.


The boot is smaller in diameter on the door end so it leads thru fairly easily. Pop the boot into place.



Using the existing holes and nylon support clips for the power gate harness lead the PW harness across the firewall. I added a couple of clips on the passenger side to support the harness over there. Last pic shows the harness going thru the cowl reinforcements discussed before.



This is the front door power lock harness and solenoids. There are 2 pig tails and plugs that lead to the rear doors, the passenger feed is middle left pointing up at about 1-o’clock. The other plugs pointing up at about 11-o’clock, middle picture, is the power feed and the drivers rear door feed .


I removed the door lock harness from the power window door boots as I was using a different window harness. In a PW/PDL car, the lock and window harnesses are conjoined with tape at the boots. Mine are separated now.

I threaded the PDL door harnesses thru the boots and joined them up to the mid body harness. Whereas the drivers power window harness has the midbody harness attached, the door locks are 3 separate pieces plugged together and strung across the firewall.


The drivers harnesses need to be correctly run thru the cowl at this time, it was corrected later; passenger is correctly done.

Passenger and driver door with both harnesses.


"Just remember, your last car is always a station wagon." chaos10meter, on The H.A.M.B.
chevygod is offline  
 
post #4 of 27 (permalink) Old Dec 14th, 14, 1:44 AM Thread Starter
Senior Tech Team
Tom
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Riverside County, California
Posts: 1,198
Re: power windows and locks into 68-72 wagons

I didn’t take any pics of the front power lift mechanisms going into the front doors. Suffice it to say they went in about as expected, with some swearing and sheetmetal cuts on the hands. The one important difference is that that manual lifts have one arm, and the power lifts have a scissors type arm.
<pic of manual compared to power lift mechs>

This requires that you get the matching track for the following arm to ride in and install it in the inner door shell. System will not work without it. If you buy a system from someone make sure these tracks are included! Assembly is a pain, same as with manual windows, but when all is lined up it almost falls together.

I also didn't take pics of the dimples in the rear face of the door where the holes are drilled for mounting the lock solenoids. The dimples are much like those on a coupe door shell, but instead of three there are only two. This is what the hardware looks like on the outside, lower 2 screws.


Solenoids hook up easily and directly to the appropriate linkage on the door latch, and bolt right into the door where the holes were drilled.



After everything was bolted in and wired up, I hooked up a battery to the power feed wire and took the locks and windows for a spin. All worked just like a factory install, which the front door components are. I would have a little bit of work on the rear doors.

"Just remember, your last car is always a station wagon." chaos10meter, on The H.A.M.B.
chevygod is offline  
post #5 of 27 (permalink) Old Dec 14th, 14, 2:01 AM Thread Starter
Senior Tech Team
Tom
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Riverside County, California
Posts: 1,198
Re: power windows and locks into 68-72 wagons

OK, getting into the rear doors was a little bit more exciting. Luckily, I had the door Vista doors that I could use to learn about how the mechanisms would orient in their correct environment. From that, I was able to determine where they “should” be to somewhat correctly move the rear windows.

Then I started looking very closely at what the differences were between the VC scissor arms and the Chevelle scissor arms.

The overall length of the main arm from pivot at the driven gear to roller, and length from pivot at gear to scissor pivot, is the same for both. If I remember correctly the ID number stamped into each is the same as well. So that arm is the same.




Also, looking at the picture it can be seen that the upper arm of the scissor portion is the same on both. Again, same ID number. So the parts of the lift mechanism that actually touches the window is the same. Now, looking at the same picture, the lower scissor arm of Chevelle mechanism (in back in the pic) is shorter and in-line with the upper scissor arm, whereas the lower arm on the VC mech is longer and angled. This lower arm runs in the guide channel bolted to the inner door, and accounts for the added door length. The guide channel is also longer to have a longer run to allow for this. And yes, the lower arm numbers are different.


Using clear acetate I made a template to show where the theoretical center of the main arm pivot is on the Chevelle door, including the mounting holes for the manual window mechanism. I also made a template with the mounting hole pattern from the spare VC door. I then figured the max travel up and down for the manual as well as the power mechanisms, figuring how I would need to rotate the VC pattern on the Chevelle door to use this travel to move the window to its extents of travel. One mounting hole on the Chevelle door was close enough to being correct in relation to that theoretical main arm pivot center point that the mech could be made to work by temporarily mounting the mechanism in the door shell to try things out as I went along. I would have been able to use two actual holes, but the VC mechanism didn’t have thread inserts in those points. More on those later. Anyway, this temporary mounting showed that I did have to replace the lower arm and modify the stops. Once this was figured it was time to start cutting up these expensive parts I had purchased. About ready to be committed to the project. Or committed to the asylum...

Scans of those templates with a Post-It for scale. The VC is first, Chevelle is second. Also, the hole with the circle and cross is the mechanism lift arm pivot point.


"Just remember, your last car is always a station wagon." chaos10meter, on The H.A.M.B.
chevygod is offline  
post #6 of 27 (permalink) Old Dec 14th, 14, 2:02 AM Thread Starter
Senior Tech Team
Tom
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Riverside County, California
Posts: 1,198
Re: power windows and locks into 68-72 wagons

Darn 10 pic limit...

I started by gently grinding the swaged portion of the scissor pivot to separate the upper and lower pivot arms. I did this on both the Chevelle manual arms and the VC power arms.


Then I separated the arms, keeping track of the arms, nylon washers, and orientation I wanted to finish with.


Due to the way the parts were originally assembled, the parts wouldn’t just snap back together, and I didn’t want to screw something up by applying force, so I made them fit.




Once fit was good, I tacked the arms back together. Not too much heat, as I would rather have to reweld later instead of getting it too hot and ruining the washers or warping the mechanism.


The change in arms and mounting necessitated the removal of the factory stops. This was accomplished by grinding off the rivet heads.


I then mounted the mech in the door with no glass using the temporary hole and ran it up and down. Looked OK so added the glass into the equation and found the window didn’t go down far enough. The upper scissor arm was contacting the motor.

"Just remember, your last car is always a station wagon." chaos10meter, on The H.A.M.B.
chevygod is offline  
post #7 of 27 (permalink) Old Dec 14th, 14, 2:13 AM Thread Starter
Senior Tech Team
Tom
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Riverside County, California
Posts: 1,198
Re: power windows and locks into 68-72 wagons

I figured out where the interference was and determined how much material on the arm and motor would have to be removed. This is the finished product.


I first drilled a hole at the center of the portion that needed to be clearanced…


Then cut out the area with a hole saw…


Trimmed lower edge as much as I dared…


And trimmed some material off of the motor gearbox housing.


After reassembly I had the most down stroke I could get. Window would still be up about 2” at the wiper seal but that was OK with me.

I wished to use the two existing holes in the door that would match up with blank square holes on the VC mechanism, so have to add the thread inserts. Eventually I would find that I needed 4 extra thread inserts to improve the stability of the mechanism once installed.


In order to get correct threaded inserts, I stole them from the old take manual lifts. I installed a screw with a dog point on it (dog points are a short unthreaded portion that is used for alignment when driving or for tightening up against another object. The point can take abuse without damaging the threads), suspended the insert and screw using a deep socket and hit the end of the dog point to drive out the insert.




"Just remember, your last car is always a station wagon." chaos10meter, on The H.A.M.B.
chevygod is offline  
post #8 of 27 (permalink) Old Dec 14th, 14, 2:28 AM Thread Starter
Senior Tech Team
Tom
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Riverside County, California
Posts: 1,198
Re: power windows and locks into 68-72 wagons

After a little cleanup for improving fit of the inserts into the square hole, like I did on the pivot reassemble, the thread inserts were tacked into the mechanism.


Now it was time to drill the door for the new mechanism. I used the 2 existing holes that match the middle hole in the mech and added 2 new upper and 2 new lower holes. Middle holes and lower holes went into newly added tread inserts. Lower holes went into existing inserts.


Mechanism is shown installed in the driver door. Note marking of lift arm pivot point.


These show how far down the window go and where they stop. I am thinking of putting in a bottom travel stop so the arm isn’t always contacting the motor. Maybe when I run out of other things to do…



About the templates: In order to determine were my pivot point needed to be, as that was what I was using to make all of this work, I used the Chevelle mechanism to get the pivot by tracing it onto the acetate. The pivot is the bottom circle with cross.


Using this template, I then transferred the pivot location to the door. I then traced a template from the VC lift and figured best location on the door, aligning it by that pivot point.


I may have been able to get a better location, or actuation if I drilled the door up more, but using existing holes was preferable to me in case I ever find correct lifts.

"Just remember, your last car is always a station wagon." chaos10meter, on The H.A.M.B.
chevygod is offline  
post #9 of 27 (permalink) Old Dec 14th, 14, 2:35 AM Thread Starter
Senior Tech Team
Tom
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Riverside County, California
Posts: 1,198
Re: power windows and locks into 68-72 wagons

So once I had the rear window lifts in and good, I started on the rear locks.
The back doors of the VC have a similar system for actuating the door locks as the Chevelle: knob lock rod, bell crank, and linkage to the latch. The VC parts are a little different in length, so I combined what I needed from both.


The Chevelle lock rod going to the knob and linkage going from the bell crank to the latch assembly were removed from the Chevelle bell crank, and the VC bell crank was put into its place. I carefully ground the backside of the pins down until I could remove them from all of the components, and put everything back together with the Chevelle rods and the VC bell crank and tack welded it. Then I mounted the VC solenoids in the same place as they would be in the Chevelle. There are dimples in the inner door where I needed to drill.


Bolted in the solenoids and wired everything up. All worked well, I just needed to make the linkage from the solenoid to the bell crank. I made a few of these on the first side I completed, and 2 for the second. I didn’t take any pics of this, I was supremely frustrated by the time I was done.

I still have to look at this, as I sometimes have an issue where one door won’t lock, and the other won’t unlock. I don’t know if it due to linkage length or issues with the strength of the solenoids. It can depend on outside temperature, whether the car is running or not (voltage), and sometime it doesn’t matter why it does or does not work. No matter, most times they lock fine.

Again, cut holes for the door wire boots a little tight and opened them up. Removed the doors as it saved lots of headache.The boot ends for the rear doors measure approx 1.6” diam on the door end and 1.3” diam on the body end. This is the opposite sizing of the fronts. Wiring is led thru the door into the body. Again, in order to have a nice fit, the door was cut with a 1-1/2” diameter hole saw and the body was cut with a 1-1/8” diameter hole saw. Actual measurement of the GM punched hole in the door is 1-5/8” diam. Also again, edges of the holes were gently deburred with a grinding stone on a die grinder.

As mentioned above, the rear door harness is fed thru the door into the body, opposite of the fronts which are fed thru the body into the door.



Looking at how the harnesses have the taped-in clips that snap into hole in the sheet metal to retain the harnesses, I think the rear door wiring goes into the door pillar and thru the upper large inner hole to the inside of the pillar, where it is covered by the trim piece.


I first ran it inside and down, but switched when I saw the clip. Not sure which is right, it seems it could work either way. Anyone know?

Window wiring is run thru the mid body conduit under the drivers seat to the rear footwell and across to the doors. Door lock wiring for driver side also runs thru the conduit to the driver side rear door, but on the passenger side it runs down the firewall (maybe along the trans tunnel?) along the floor and under the seat to the passenger side rear door. Don’t know about clips on the floor, probably just hidden under the carpet.

So now I have power windows and locks. Yay.

"Just remember, your last car is always a station wagon." chaos10meter, on The H.A.M.B.
chevygod is offline  
post #10 of 27 (permalink) Old Dec 14th, 14, 3:00 AM Thread Starter
Senior Tech Team
Tom
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Riverside County, California
Posts: 1,198
Re: power windows and locks into 68-72 wagons

I purchased a whole pile of wagon parts and in this I received a set of decent door panels from a 68 Le Mans wagon, a nice green color, with tags that say “Custom” on them. So I hacked these up to fit the window and lock switches.

I bought new window switches for the windows, and bought the same switches as single for the locks. Not correct, or even the right size, but available and cheap.

Looking at the backside of the panels, they had barely discernible markings on where to cut for adding power window switches. These markings are around the window crank holes. I have also seen such markings on Coupe panels, so may help for other installs to look for these.



I have highlighted them here



So, pretty simple, just cut them out. This leaves a correct opening and takes out the area where the window crank was. I used a sharp knife, and changed the blade several times for the switch install process. Also, I went very slowly so as to not cut myself or damage the door panels. Be careful!


Front driver side 4-gang switch installed.


For passenger door the single switch has a similar marking for cutting out the panel.


Went ahead and did the same trick on the passenger front, as well as both rear doors. All went well.

"Just remember, your last car is always a station wagon." chaos10meter, on The H.A.M.B.
chevygod is offline  
post #11 of 27 (permalink) Old Dec 14th, 14, 3:01 AM Thread Starter
Senior Tech Team
Tom
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Riverside County, California
Posts: 1,198
Re: power windows and locks into 68-72 wagons

For the power lock switches, I used the single window switches. I looked at lots of pictures of power door lock installs on four door inner trim panels and doors, and I knew approximately where the switch had to be due to the location of the wiring in the door. So I made another clear template by lining up some inner door landmarks (vent window crank shaft, armrest mounting hole and some inner door structure which pinpoints the approx PDL wiring location).



Went back and forth a few times and picked best looking location for the switch. Compared it with pics of mountings from cars on the ‘Net, and came up with a best guess. I compared this with a Chevelle door panel. You can also see an approximate location for the switch on a Vista Cruiser door panel. VC's have different trim, so the switch is moved a little. Same general area, and harness reaches all.


I then verified the location on the Le Mans door panel (this is a pic of the driver side mirrored, as I didn’t take a pic of the passenger side. Moved too fast).


The approx Chevelle location fit around the chrome trim and nameplate on the door panel, so I taped up the door panel to draw out my layout line and cut in the switch hole. Dunno why this ones upside down... Oh well...



Then I installed the switch retainers for the windows and the locks, and installed the door panels. Done.

"Just remember, your last car is always a station wagon." chaos10meter, on The H.A.M.B.
chevygod is offline  
post #12 of 27 (permalink) Old Dec 14th, 14, 3:05 AM Thread Starter
Senior Tech Team
Tom
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Riverside County, California
Posts: 1,198
Re: power windows and locks into 68-72 wagons

The final pics are of the painted door panels and everything all installed.

Still need to install the vent window cranks and I want to improve the armrest bases. Oh well, another day...

The windows have been up and running for over a year (had them in the body before the body was on the chassis!), and working on the streets for almost a year. Really happy with the results, although I am looking for the correct rear window lifts for a short rear door wagon or 4 door sedan, as well as the correct lock system linkages.

However, if I never find those, I’m still good.

Thanks for following along,
Tom

"Just remember, your last car is always a station wagon." chaos10meter, on The H.A.M.B.
chevygod is offline  
post #13 of 27 (permalink) Old Dec 14th, 14, 8:13 AM
Team Member
carlo
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: hudson valley,ny
Posts: 2,146
Garage
Re: power windows and locks into 68-72 wagons

Tom
nice work. alot good info in there that I'm sure will help someone. what's your plans for that elco ? is that yours ?
hmardown

empty garage
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

hmardown is offline  
post #14 of 27 (permalink) Old Dec 14th, 14, 11:44 AM Thread Starter
Senior Tech Team
Tom
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Riverside County, California
Posts: 1,198
Re: power windows and locks into 68-72 wagons

Hi Carlo,
Thank you for reading.

The Elco is my weak purchase form 20 years back. Was originally a Custom 400 with the 402/TH400/3.30 posi. Had the deluxe color keyed interior with bench, tilt column and factory gages. 402 and trans were long gone, so to get it running I installed a 350/M21 with buckets and console. Someday it'll get painted and a '70 396/402 I have, and more love, but at least it didn't get parted, which is were it was going when I got it. Fun caruck to haul stuff around in.

Best,
Tom

"Just remember, your last car is always a station wagon." chaos10meter, on The H.A.M.B.
chevygod is offline  
post #15 of 27 (permalink) Old Dec 14th, 14, 11:56 AM
Administrator
 
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Marana, AZ
Posts: 16,031
Garage
Re: power windows and locks into 68-72 wagons

Excellent write up. Will be saving this to aid with the install in my wagon...as soon as I find all the parts

Team Chevelle Gold Founding Member #42

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
L29 454, 4L80E, 12 bolt posi 3.31, GM 4 wheel disc brakes
63 Nova wagon

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Philip is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Chevelle Tech forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address. Note, you will be sent a confirmation request to this address.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Old Thread Warning
This Thread is more than 842 days old. It is very likely that it does not need any further discussion and thus bumping it serves no purpose.
If you still feel it is necessary to make a new reply, you can still do so though.




Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome