Spark Plug Upgrade - Page 5 - Chevelle Tech
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post #61 of 71 (permalink) Old Jan 14th, 20, 8:48 PM
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Mike
 
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Re: Spark Plug Upgrade

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Originally Posted by dyno jonn View Post
ET conscious stock class drag racers sometimes index them for an advantage. Stock class racers might modify spark plugs for an advantage too.

BTDT in both cases.

Theoretical engineers? I doubt it.
I'm familiar with theoretical physicists, but have never heard of theoretical engineers. What do they do, and where are they employed?
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post #62 of 71 (permalink) Old Jan 14th, 20, 8:54 PM
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Mike
 
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Re: Spark Plug Upgrade

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Originally Posted by Dave Ray View Post
So, making some statement that the spark travels from negative to positive was just idle misinformation. Flies in the face of polarity for ignition feeds into systems that are polarity sensitive, isn't it.

Kinda makes the polarity an issue with just how the travel into and out of the spark plug operates, doesn't it.

Then, why didn't YOU say so, Mr. Design Engineer. I am a full fledged Design Engineer as well, have been for over 40 years, but you woold have people not believe any of that, would you.

As far as indexing spark plugs, ABSOLUTELY YES, good to do, but, unless the heads were flow pattered wet flow, so you know exactly where the most optimum index spot in the fill area is, it is all for naught. Lets think about a flow path that is to one side of the bend of the electrode, with the electrode directly in the way of the maximum mixture path, that would be bad. Now, IF you could index the spark plug negative electrode so the open area on the plug was open to that maximum mixture path, that would be GREAT. Now, has anyone that information on mixture densities in the spark plug indexing area, done while the heads were WET FLOWED, or, are all those ports and mixture flow paths still secret, simply because the cylinder head porter guru never heard of, nor even cared to learn about wet flow, and just where that billion cfm's of mixture went, or, only dry flowed the ports, so he doesn't know anything more than utterly useless flow information??

We haven't even touched the surface yet, lots more to consider why it is done so incorrectly by people that just don't think about things, they only want to be a guru at what they know very little, to nothing of how it really works.

Ever watch patterns of fog movement in slow moving air, like while driving down a road, one can learn basic patterns and other significant things about wet flow of a liquid. Dry air, one learns nothing about how a liquid laden air flow, and patterns operate at all.

I'll leave it all at what it is, and what it isn't, I have other things to do on the world championship road race engine development work I do. Testing is very close on the horizon.
Would you care to translate that first sentence into understandable English?

You're an engineer. Be specific in your description.
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post #63 of 71 (permalink) Old Jan 18th, 20, 5:02 PM
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Re: Spark Plug Upgrade

I stated that all spark plugs are not forced to fire from negative to positive, as YOU stated as fact some dissertations of misleading info further up in this chain. It is proven fact that not all spark plugs are fed with current run paths of negative to positive movements. You made the statement about the only one direction firing polarity, I DIDN'T.

Now, nobody took me up on the J gapping? I am verklempt. J gapping was done to unshroud the positive electrode in a spark plug, to allow for the spark kernel to hit more fuel molecules, by removing most of the flat end of the negative electrode. Simply done, the part of the negative electrode that was obscuring the center electrode was cut back for most of the diameter of the center electrode. The remaining negative electrode bar made it look like the letter J. This was usually good for a tenth or so per run, but, electrode wear increased exponentially, because the spark occurred on one edge of the center electrode only, not all around the round edge of the electrode, because there was no electrode left to randomly fire spark around the center electrode diameter.

Most older racers drove the cars on the street, then raced on weekends. They'd leave the plugs alone for the week, then, before the race, cut the negatives into J gaps, race, and then put another set of plugs in for two weeks later, the next race. We see quite a selection of spark plugs today that are J gapped, but in today's plugs, there are more than 1 negative electrode that are J designed. E3's have three, the first two negative electrode plugs I mentioned above were dual J gap, and on, and on. We even use a 2 bar variation of them to negative electrode NGK racer plugs in the Yamaha M7 1,000 cc inline MotoGP 4 stroke engines of today. We make an easily tunable 290 to 385 or so horsepower in those engines, in a minimum 285 pounds weight motorcycle, and the engine is docile enough to ride the bike back and forth to work, the market, Sunday ride.

The only spark plugs that aren't negative electroded, are the NGK BUHX, and Champion UL17V and UL19V Surface Gap plugs, they have literally NO negative electrode, the spark runs between a center electrode and the hole on the plug body. I just saw an ad for those Surface Gap plugs being touted for 4 stroke auto engines, that isn't what they like, Surface Gap plugs are for electronic CDI ignitions, and two stroke outboard engines. Seems anybody in the spark plug business will say, over hype advertize, and/or do anything to sell product, who cares if it works, or, not.
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post #64 of 71 (permalink) Old Jan 18th, 20, 5:34 PM
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Re: Spark Plug Upgrade

ZL, you cannot defy the laws of the universe. To try will only waste your time and effort.
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post #65 of 71 (permalink) Old Jan 18th, 20, 8:28 PM
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Re: Spark Plug Upgrade

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Originally Posted by 69ZL1 View Post
Would you care to translate that first sentence into understandable English?

You're an engineer. Be specific in your description.
Dave, I'm still waiting for an English translation of your first sentence in post #55.
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post #66 of 71 (permalink) Old Jan 18th, 20, 8:34 PM
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Mike
 
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Re: Spark Plug Upgrade

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ZL, you cannot defy the laws of the universe. To try will only waste your time and effort.

I suspect you are correct.
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post #67 of 71 (permalink) Old Jan 19th, 20, 12:44 AM
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Jon N.
 
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Re: Spark Plug Upgrade

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Ray View Post

Most older racers drove the cars on the street, then raced on weekends. They'd leave the plugs alone for the week, then, before the race, cut the negatives into J gaps, race, and then put another set of plugs in for two weeks later, the next race.

Even though the modified spark gap was only worth about .010 in ET, and indexing plugs was only worth about .010 ET, I considered it time well spent since it only involved time, and not money. The spark plugs that wouldn't index correctly in my engine would be used through the week on customers daily drivers. I only cut the gaps after indexing. Win-win.
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Jon N.

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post #68 of 71 (permalink) Old Jan 26th, 20, 2:16 PM
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Re: Spark Plug Upgrade

John, well said, sir. Unshrouding the spark always worked, as did indexing the negative electrode, or, what there was left of it, was/is always beneficial. Giant plug gaps between shrouded electrodes doesn't.

I had a 1972 Chevy LUV pickup, used the stock engine for years, then went to a small block. When it was still a 4 cylinder, I had a partial loss of power in the engine. I checked valve settings, OK, timing, OK (had one of the first Mobelec electronic ignition conversions ever, worked well), wires, cap, rotor, compression, bent this, bent that, no luck. I constantly read the plugs during the fix it process, no issues, or so I thought I saw.

Well, one session with the plugs, I read them, looked OK, gap was fine, no reason for a problem with them. OOPS, the number 4 cylinder was the one that gave the problems, looked good. Last look at the plugs, I read them, firing end up, no issues. Then, I put the plugs down, sitting on their negative electrodes, and went to get water to drink. Back to the plugs, going back nto the engine. Number 4, looked again, and found the whole porcelain jacket over the positive electrode was now fully covering the positive electrode and plug gap, literally blocking off the spark area. I turned the plug up side down, porcelain slid back into place opening the gap bck up. I did the rotation a few times, the porcelain was completey disconnected right where it mated with the plug body, so, it was just fne new, and for a few hundred miles, then, porcelain broke away at the body junction, shorting down the spark at the electrode gap, but not all the way into the plug, where the electrode opened when it was installed. Spark still worked when the porcelain was all the way down shrouding the gap, making a significantly less contact area with mixture.

A single new spark plug fixed it.

Moral: It doesn't take much to make a serious problem, that even tech guru heros like the one posted two posts up from here, and even a common shade tree mechanic like myself, can easily MISS..
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post #69 of 71 (permalink) Old Jan 26th, 20, 6:26 PM
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Mike
 
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Re: Spark Plug Upgrade

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Ray View Post
John, well said, sir. Unshrouding the spark always worked, as did indexing the negative electrode, or, what there was left of it, was/is always beneficial. Giant plug gaps between shrouded electrodes doesn't.

I had a 1972 Chevy LUV pickup, used the stock engine for years, then went to a small block. When it was still a 4 cylinder, I had a partial loss of power in the engine. I checked valve settings, OK, timing, OK (had one of the first Mobelec electronic ignition conversions ever, worked well), wires, cap, rotor, compression, bent this, bent that, no luck. I constantly read the plugs during the fix it process, no issues, or so I thought I saw.

Well, one session with the plugs, I read them, looked OK, gap was fine, no reason for a problem with them. OOPS, the number 4 cylinder was the one that gave the problems, looked good. Last look at the plugs, I read them, firing end up, no issues. Then, I put the plugs down, sitting on their negative electrodes, and went to get water to drink. Back to the plugs, going back nto the engine. Number 4, looked again, and found the whole porcelain jacket over the positive electrode was now fully covering the positive electrode and plug gap, literally blocking off the spark area. I turned the plug up side down, porcelain slid back into place opening the gap bck up. I did the rotation a few times, the porcelain was completey disconnected right where it mated with the plug body, so, it was just fne new, and for a few hundred miles, then, porcelain broke away at the body junction, shorting down the spark at the electrode gap, but not all the way into the plug, where the electrode opened when it was installed. Spark still worked when the porcelain was all the way down shrouding the gap, making a significantly less contact area with mixture.

A single new spark plug fixed it.

Moral: It doesn't take much to make a serious problem, that even tech guru heros like the one posted two posts up from here, and even a common shade tree mechanic like myself, can easily MISS..
Given the Japanese automakers' habit of copying American products way back when, I would expect that a '72 Luv four cylinder engine with a distributor will fire the plug center electrode with a NEGATIVE polarity relative to the side/ground electrode, as American vehicles did (Simple physics explains why).

A fellow tech guru hero should know that.
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post #70 of 71 (permalink) Old Jan 27th, 20, 8:56 AM
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Gene
 
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Re: Spark Plug Upgrade

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Ray View Post

A single new spark plug fixed it.

Moral: It doesn't take much to make a serious problem, that even tech guru heros like the one posted two posts up from here, and even a common shade tree mechanic like myself, can easily MISS..

Talk to Slick, he just had a similar problem ! And man where we chasing his tail in a circle about it!
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post #71 of 71 (permalink) Old Jan 27th, 20, 11:47 AM
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Re: Spark Plug Upgrade

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Ray View Post
I stated that all spark plugs are not forced to fire from negative to positive, as YOU stated as fact some dissertations of misleading info further up in this chain. It is proven fact that not all spark plugs are fed with current run paths of negative to positive movements. You made the statement about the only one direction firing polarity, I DIDN'T.
Dave you must be a blast at parties. Reading your posts feels like you're on a bar stool with a megaphone making everyone listen, akin to drinking from a funnel. I'm assuming spittle when you're screaming this but unsure of how to translate that into keyboard strokes? Hoping I'm wrong and have taken your diatribes inaccurately?

This topic kept on popping up in new posts, came in here to see what the discussion was about, and am sorry to have read through it. Was thinking there might have been good information to be obtained. God help your co-workers.

There are better ways to convey information. Nobody needs a history lesson of your life before determining whether to or not to take your advice, or in this thread duck your verbal assaults.

Good luck to all parties involved, there's some mighty big "swords" being swung in here.

*Jeff*

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