Spark Plug Upgrade - Page 4 - Chevelle Tech
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post #46 of 71 (permalink) Old Jan 13th, 20, 11:17 AM
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Re: Spark Plug Upgrade

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Originally Posted by travisch View Post
Not following your logic at all.The plug body is effectively grounded in the head which is tied to the NEG. battery terminal so that is the negative electrode. Only the center electrode can be positive.
I think what the general idea is, totally ignore the battery and think of the ignition system as being isolated. The current in the plugs/wires cap/rotor through the coil is the opposite direction as the other winding in the coil that powers/triggers it. The ignition system doesn't have to be grounded at all (in respect to the 12V/battery/accessory/charging systems) It is a totally different electrical circuit that happens to share the body/engine as one of the conductors.

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post #47 of 71 (permalink) Old Jan 13th, 20, 8:29 PM
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Re: Spark Plug Upgrade

I get what Mike is saying. The high voltage side of an ignition coil is two ends/wires/terminals and one is grounded to the engine through the negative wire of the primary side of the coil.

Whether the positive end or the negative end of the high voltage coil is connected to the engine ground is determined by the coil manufacturer.

Regardless of which way it's connected, it'll still produce a spark. I highly doubt one way or another would have any advantage.

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post #48 of 71 (permalink) Old Jan 13th, 20, 8:32 PM
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Re: Spark Plug Upgrade

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pioneer4x4 View Post
I think what the general idea is, totally ignore the battery and think of the ignition system as being isolated. The current in the plugs/wires cap/rotor through the coil is the opposite direction as the other winding in the coil that powers/triggers it. The ignition system doesn't have to be grounded at all (in respect to the 12V/battery/accessory/charging systems) It is a totally different electrical circuit that happens to share the body/engine as one of the conductors.
You are correct, sir.
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post #49 of 71 (permalink) Old Jan 13th, 20, 9:05 PM
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Re: Spark Plug Upgrade

" You are also invited to ask Dave if he and I have probably worked with the same individuals at one time or another." Who cares? NOBODY except troublemakers.

Now, as far as polarity on spark plug electrodes, please, OH KNOW IT ALL ELECTRICAL TECH, Why do some 4 cycle, twin, four and 6 cylinder motorcycle engines fire one spark plug positive to negative, the other with a piston at TDC at the same time, fire reversed, negative to positive????????

Well, two reasons, yet again. With two pistons at TDC at the same time, AND, ONE COIL PER TWO CYLINDERS, instead of the coil windings grounding on one if the coil ends, BOTH ends of the coil go to the two spark plugs. the pistons alternate between TDC firing and TDC overlap, back and forth, one piston on fire, the other on overlap, then, they reverse the phasing for the next cycle, and bvack, forth, back forth, BUT, both spark plugs fire at the same time. TDC on 1 power, fire to make power, SAME TDC on 2, overlap, next cycle, 1 overlap, 2 power firing.

Now, there is NO spark difference between the plugs, one fires positive to negative, the other negative to positive, to complete a TWO SIRE LEAD FROM ONE COIL. Motorcycles use and used this setup for decades, both point type, and electronic ignitions, Honda, Kawasaki, Yamaha, Suzuki and a lot of other brands.

Ok, here is where all of you are going to call me an idiot, apples to oranges, motorcycles are different than auto engine ignition systems, distributors, etc. OK, I'll go along with it, for now, but........

There is this. I not long ago, owned a Buick, Regal, 231 V6, DISTRIBUTORLESS IGNITION SYSTEM. Used a crank and cam sensor, three ignition modules in one pack, and THREE TWO LEAD IGNITION COILS, just like all them motorcycle ignitions do, did, still do. Seems those systems, and almost every other distributorless ignition system used some sort of dual wire ignition coil to fire two spark plugs off at the same time, one piston at TDC power, the other at TDC overlap, and reverse, and, reverse, etc. One spark plug per coil fired negative to positive, the other positive to negative EVERY full circle of engine rotation.

Those systems were not sequential, although they were distributorless, they did not fire each individual spark plug independently of the rest, they fired two at a time.

See, when you know about a system function, it becomes extremely simple, and those "morons" that explain it aren't so stupid, after all, and neither is anyone else that got the real info, and learned, they came out of it a lot smarter, and better for it. This is what we are attempting to do here, help everyone understand how it really works.

Got an old Honda CB750, Kawasaki KZ1000, Buick V6, go pull one of the spark plug wires off the outer cylinders, crank it over, did you get shocked, you should have, now, pull the other outside plug wire off, keep it away from ground, and check for spark again, report back here.

Have fun
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post #50 of 71 (permalink) Old Jan 13th, 20, 9:16 PM
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Re: Spark Plug Upgrade

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul bell View Post
I get what Mike is saying. The high voltage side of an ignition coil is two ends/wires/terminals and one is grounded to the engine through the negative wire of the primary side of the coil.

Whether the positive end or the negative end of the high voltage coil is connected to the engine ground is determined by the coil manufacturer.

Regardless of which way it's connected, it'll still produce a spark. I highly doubt one way or another would have any advantage.
Yes, if a coil is hooked up backwards (ie: the center electrode positive relative to the side electrode), it will still produce a spark. But there is a great efficiency loss at the plug when hooked backwards. The literature I see says that it can take up to 45% more voltage to jump the plug gap. As there's no free lunch in this world, that means something has to decrease if the voltage is increased. That something is usually the arc duration. The coil energy is converted/used in the plug as "arc Voltage x arc Current x arc duration/Time". If you piss away the coil energy needlessly by increasing the voltage necessary to cause the gap to conduct current, you are reducing the time that the arc is "burning", thereby reducing the number of fuel/oxygen molecules that are lit off by the spark. This inefficiency is magnified when running lean fuel mixtures or when the coil energy levels are marginal for the application.

Correct (ie: negative) polarity at the center electrode is a known advantage, and used by every manufacturer I'm aware of.
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post #51 of 71 (permalink) Old Jan 13th, 20, 9:32 PM
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Re: Spark Plug Upgrade

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Ray View Post
" You are also invited to ask Dave if he and I have probably worked with the same individuals at one time or another." Who cares? NOBODY except troublemakers.

Now, as far as polarity on spark plug electrodes, please, OH KNOW IT ALL ELECTRICAL TECH, Why do some 4 cycle, twin, four and 6 cylinder motorcycle engines fire one spark plug positive to negative, the other with a piston at TDC at the same time, fire reversed, negative to positive????????

Well, two reasons, yet again. With two pistons at TDC at the same time, AND, ONE COIL PER TWO CYLINDERS, instead of the coil windings grounding on one if the coil ends, BOTH ends of the coil go to the two spark plugs. the pistons alternate between TDC firing and TDC overlap, back and forth, one piston on fire, the other on overlap, then, they reverse the phasing for the next cycle, and bvack, forth, back forth, BUT, both spark plugs fire at the same time. TDC on 1 power, fire to make power, SAME TDC on 2, overlap, next cycle, 1 overlap, 2 power firing.

Now, there is NO spark difference between the plugs, one fires positive to negative, the other negative to positive, to complete a TWO SIRE LEAD FROM ONE COIL. Motorcycles use and used this setup for decades, both point type, and electronic ignitions, Honda, Kawasaki, Yamaha, Suzuki and a lot of other brands.

Ok, here is where all of you are going to call me an idiot, apples to oranges, motorcycles are different than auto engine ignition systems, distributors, etc. OK, I'll go along with it, for now, but........

There is this. I not long ago, owned a Buick, Regal, 231 V6, DISTRIBUTORLESS IGNITION SYSTEM. Used a crank and cam sensor, three ignition modules in one pack, and THREE TWO LEAD IGNITION COILS, just like all them motorcycle ignitions do, did, still do. Seems those systems, and almost every other distributorless ignition system used some sort of dual wire ignition coil to fire two spark plugs off at the same time, one piston at TDC power, the other at TDC overlap, and reverse, and, reverse, etc. One spark plug per coil fired negative to positive, the other positive to negative EVERY full circle of engine rotation.

Those systems were not sequential, although they were distributorless, they did not fire each individual spark plug independently of the rest, they fired two at a time.

See, when you know about a system function, it becomes extremely simple, and those "morons" that explain it aren't so stupid, after all, and neither is anyone else that got the real info, and learned, they came out of it a lot smarter, and better for it. This is what we are attempting to do here, help everyone understand how it really works.

Got an old Honda CB750, Kawasaki KZ1000, Buick V6, go pull one of the spark plug wires off the outer cylinders, crank it over, did you get shocked, you should have, now, pull the other outside plug wire off, keep it away from ground, and check for spark again, report back here.

Have fun
A few things, Dave:

I'm a design engineer, not a Tech. Not an ego thing, just my job description.

Secondly, I'm very familiar with the Buick DIS ignition. I worked on that program for a few years. There's also a couple patents regarding that system with my name on it.

Thirdly, that ignition system controls a higher amount of energy in the coils, to provide sufficient and reliable arc energy in the two series wired plug gaps and the increased energy/voltage levels necessary to fire the three plugs that have the inefficient polarity configuration.
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post #52 of 71 (permalink) Old Jan 14th, 20, 11:26 AM
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Re: Spark Plug Upgrade

On a totally different note, as an upgrade.
I'll stir the pot some more.
"Spark Plug Indexing" Anybody bother with it any more? I can see the advantages of aligning the outer electrode with the intake keeping all the cylinders equal with spark/heat/clean.

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post #53 of 71 (permalink) Old Jan 14th, 20, 1:25 PM
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Re: Spark Plug Upgrade

if I change my 4 year old spark plugs and my car goes quicker at the track, is that considered an upgrade?
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post #54 of 71 (permalink) Old Jan 14th, 20, 3:06 PM
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Re: Spark Plug Upgrade

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pioneer4x4 View Post

On a totally different note, as an upgrade. I'll stir the pot some more.

"Spark Plug Indexing" Anybody bother with it any more?

I can see the advantages of aligning the outer electrode with the intake keeping all the cylinders equal with spark/heat/clean.

ET conscious stock class drag racers sometimes index them for an advantage. Stock class racers might modify spark plugs for an advantage too.

BTDT in both cases.

Theoretical engineers? I doubt it.

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post #55 of 71 (permalink) Old Jan 14th, 20, 5:11 PM
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Re: Spark Plug Upgrade

So, making some statement that the spark travels from negative to positive was just idle misinformation. Flies in the face of polarity for ignition feeds into systems that are polarity sensitive, isn't it.

Kinda makes the polarity an issue with just how the travel into and out of the spark plug operates, doesn't it.

Then, why didn't YOU say so, Mr. Design Engineer. I am a full fledged Design Engineer as well, have been for over 40 years, but you woold have people not believe any of that, would you.

As far as indexing spark plugs, ABSOLUTELY YES, good to do, but, unless the heads were flow pattered wet flow, so you know exactly where the most optimum index spot in the fill area is, it is all for naught. Lets think about a flow path that is to one side of the bend of the electrode, with the electrode directly in the way of the maximum mixture path, that would be bad. Now, IF you could index the spark plug negative electrode so the open area on the plug was open to that maximum mixture path, that would be GREAT. Now, has anyone that information on mixture densities in the spark plug indexing area, done while the heads were WET FLOWED, or, are all those ports and mixture flow paths still secret, simply because the cylinder head porter guru never heard of, nor even cared to learn about wet flow, and just where that billion cfm's of mixture went, or, only dry flowed the ports, so he doesn't know anything more than utterly useless flow information??

We haven't even touched the surface yet, lots more to consider why it is done so incorrectly by people that just don't think about things, they only want to be a guru at what they know very little, to nothing of how it really works.

Ever watch patterns of fog movement in slow moving air, like while driving down a road, one can learn basic patterns and other significant things about wet flow of a liquid. Dry air, one learns nothing about how a liquid laden air flow, and patterns operate at all.

I'll leave it all at what it is, and what it isn't, I have other things to do on the world championship road race engine development work I do. Testing is very close on the horizon.
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post #56 of 71 (permalink) Old Jan 14th, 20, 7:11 PM
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Re: Spark Plug Upgrade

It is what it is and they do what they do.

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post #57 of 71 (permalink) Old Jan 14th, 20, 7:18 PM
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Re: Spark Plug Upgrade

I have a break, waiting for Japan to send info on an engine, so, lets have some fun.

WITHOUT looking all over the net, and searching, who here actually knows what "J-gappng" a spark plug is????? And, why was it done????

Don't peek, now, post if you actually know.
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post #58 of 71 (permalink) Old Jan 14th, 20, 7:30 PM
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Re: Spark Plug Upgrade

Dave, isn't that the same as side gapping?

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post #59 of 71 (permalink) Old Jan 14th, 20, 7:40 PM
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Re: Spark Plug Upgrade

You win. We're all dumb. No reason to even try to test any of us, just flunk us all.
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post #60 of 71 (permalink) Old Jan 14th, 20, 7:48 PM
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Re: Spark Plug Upgrade

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Ray View Post

I have a break, waiting for Japan to send info on an engine, so, lets have some fun.

WITHOUT looking all over the net, and searching, who here actually knows what "J-gappng" a spark plug is????? And, why was it done????

Don't peek, now, post if you actually know.

By having the electrode not going fully across the center post, it keeps crap from lodging under the "ground electrode" was the story in the old Champion spark plug pamphlets from years ago.

Do I get a cookie?

Jon N.

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