Original Black Master Cylinders - Chevelle Tech
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post #1 of 76 (permalink) Old Nov 15th, 19, 10:28 PM Thread Starter
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Original Black Master Cylinders

This has been debated on here for awhile, and I post pics of original unrestored cars with black master cylinders repeatedly, but some still cannot come around to admit that their restored car with cast-blast painted MC could possibly have any errors in the resto.

Did anyone see the new Muscle Car Review that just arrived? Low-mile Unrestored 69 COPO -- Black Delco master cylinder.

Also, an old thread on a super nice 69 SS survivor (which I don't think I saw the first go-round) just got bumped to the top in one of the other forums. See here: https://www.chevelles.com/forums/15-...ml#post9969130 -- BLACK Delco master cylinder.

My unrestored one-owner-until-I-got-it 66 L78 has its original BLACK Delco master cylinder -- the manual brake version with no bleeder. Date on bottom corresponds to the car. Also has detailed service and repair records for everything ever done to the car (including every single gas purchase from new until parked in 1983), and no indication of any MC replacement. And the original owner (alive and well) confirms it has never been replaced. And the no-bleeder version was not sold as a service replacement unit but for a very short time after the 66's were built.

My unrestored sub-50 mile 67 former drag car has its original BLACK Delco master cylinder -- again the manual brake version with no bleeders that was not sold as a service replacement unit for very long. Date on bottom corresponds to the car.

My unrestored 57K mile 67 L78 has its original BLACK Delco master cylinder -- again the manual brake version with no bleeders. Date on bottom corresponds to the car.

My boss-lady's 39K mile unrestored 67 Camaro SS350 has its original BLACK Delco disc brake "SA" master cylinder. Date on bottom corresponds to the car.

There are several more examples in my shed. I also chatted with Chris White (renown 70 LS6 restorer) about this awhile back, and he said in his experience original MC's on 69's and 70's are BLACK.

Anyhow, I suppose some will never surrender, but how many unrestored survivor cars can they just keep ignoring????

Cheers!

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post #2 of 76 (permalink) Old Nov 15th, 19, 10:58 PM
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Re: Original Black Master Cylinders

Sounds a bit personal Jeff. Keep it fun or the details will eat you.
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post #3 of 76 (permalink) Old Nov 15th, 19, 11:39 PM
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Re: Original Black Master Cylinders

Jeff NCRS states that 63-7? MC Are black as well. To me its very clear that they where painted black then machined just like any other delco brake parts

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post #4 of 76 (permalink) Old Nov 15th, 19, 11:50 PM
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Re: Original Black Master Cylinders

Thanks Jeff

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post #5 of 76 (permalink) Old Nov 16th, 19, 8:15 AM
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Re: Original Black Master Cylinders

Quote:
Originally Posted by cheveslakr View Post
Sounds a bit personal Jeff. Keep it fun or the details will eat you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by keithb View Post
Jeff NCRS states that 63-7? MC Are black as well. To me its very clear that they where painted black then machined just like any other delco brake parts
Yet a guy who worked on the Baltimore assembly line for over 20 years INSISTS that they were Cast Gray.

Go figure?

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post #6 of 76 (permalink) Old Nov 20th, 19, 11:40 PM
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Re: Original Black Master Cylinders

This is an interesting thread. I'm not dialed into the original numbers matching thing but I do like it. Around 1990 when my fourth owner, one town 67 was in body and paint jail, I repainted the non-bleeder master flat black. Because (aside from having no money to replace it and it worked) it looked like a mix rust and black to me. I didn't know about cast flat spray paint at the time I assumed black was what it should be, cleaned it and sprayed it. I probably still have it in a box somewhere even though the car has been converted to discs.

I have also assumed that the "day one" restorers use the fresh pressed cast spray to preserve the day one look forever. But back in the day, over time, a true gray cast master turned to black and eventually to orange rust?

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post #7 of 76 (permalink) Old Nov 27th, 19, 7:16 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Original Black Master Cylinders

Quote:
Originally Posted by 69SHEVL View Post
Yet a guy who worked on the Baltimore assembly line for over 20 years INSISTS that they were Cast Gray.

Go figure?
50 year old Memories, versus Dozens of unaltered original cars I'm sorry, but No Contest! Isn't it possible he is misremembering, or recalling from later during those 20 years? Let's remember, it was just a job back then. Do you remember what you did or saw at work every day several decades ago?

Also note that someone recently mentioned to me that the same gentleman (a very nice fellow I might add) posted on FB congratulating someone for the black rear panel on his 66 SS, saying that was correct. Another case of errant memory?

Another example -- A friend just completed restoration of a 67 L79 for the original owner. Rear axle has 3.73 posi code stamped, matching the POP. But the cogs inside are 4.10's, and the yoke is a big TH400 style yoke from a later model, with the bolt-on straps and giant U-joint. The original owner is adamant that nothing with the axle was ever changed since new. I think it is safe to assume that he just forgot And no, he is not senile, he's still relatively young (as original owners of 67 Chevys go) and sharp as a tack. And this is his car that he worked on and raced himself and was keenly interested and invested in. Not a bundle of his employer's parts and pieces that passed by him at work that he had no reason to pay any particular attention to.

In other words, memory is never perfect and has to be taken with the appropriate grain of salt; while untouched original cars (dozens and dozens of them) simply cannot be denied. (Unless you think there was a conspiracy 5 decades ago to run around and paint a few cars' MC's black to trick us all 50 years later, and then somehow a bunch of them from multiple years and multiple different plants all managed to end up in one guy's garage!!)

Lastly, see here from the Yenko site: https://www.yenko.net/forum/showpost...postcount=5261 -- Delco Morraine disc brake master cylinder component parts list!! Original release date on the document is 11-25-66, with revisions noted up through 1968. Line 26 lists "Paint-Black". Hmm, I wonder what that was for? I doubt they were painting the inside black. That really should be the end of the inquiry. And yes, it references Chevy-II and Camaro. But if anyone is going to try to argue that Delco Morraine would have thought it needed to paint Nova and Camaro MC's black, but not paint them for Chevelles, then they are just grasping at straws. They had some engineering reason to paint them (or else they would not have spent the money on the paint to do it), and whatever that reason was would have applied equally to Chevelles.

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post #8 of 76 (permalink) Old Nov 27th, 19, 7:42 PM
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Re: Original Black Master Cylinders

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffschevelle View Post
Do you remember what you did or saw at work every day several decades ago?
Yes I do.

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post #9 of 76 (permalink) Old Nov 27th, 19, 8:31 PM
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Re: Original Black Master Cylinders

I guess some were black and some were not.

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post #10 of 76 (permalink) Old Nov 27th, 19, 9:07 PM
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Re: Original Black Master Cylinders

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean View Post
I guess some were black and some were not.
Talk about beatin' a dead horse......

https://www.chevelles.com/forums/35-...der-color.html

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post #11 of 76 (permalink) Old Nov 27th, 19, 10:22 PM
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Re: Original Black Master Cylinders

What's amazing to me is I can sit here and claim that the dozens of masters I have had, most oem, some oem painted black but every one of those that were painted black had black lids, black lines and black boosters. Now you have another witness that has the exact opposite experience but from a different part of the country. I'm willing to give him a the respect of his beliefs but he won't budge on his. That tells me that my experiences don't mean crap and I most likely am seeing things.
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post #12 of 76 (permalink) Old Nov 27th, 19, 11:24 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Original Black Master Cylinders

The post Mike just linked above led to multiple links by others to info concluding they were black. Thanks for adding that link!

As noted in my first post here, the reason I brought up the subject was that I just saw another unrestored car in MCR, and another post that had floated to the top with an extremely well preserved survivor car with original black MC. Which reminded me of the subject. If beating a dead horse was a crime on this forum, just about everyone who has posted on this thread would already be in jail!

Jerry, your experience is not crap, and no one is saying that. As noted in the other thread Mike just linked, it was thin poor quality paint which easily washed off with any spilled brake fluid. If you have seen a low mile original car that has had nothing changed under the hood except battery, belts and hoses, and never had very much brake fluid spilled or leaked onto the MC, and it has a pristine bare MC that obviously never had any paint on it, then that would be different and would be an Apples to Apples comparison.

Anyhow, it's all good. Anyone can believe whatever they want, and ignore confirmed original cars from Atlanta, KC, Fremont, and Baltimore plants (as well as the Vette plant, and the Norwood and LA Camaro plants), and totally ignore the actual documentation from Delco-Morraine that shows that black paint was a component part of a Delco-Morraine master cylinder. That seems like a reasonable and defensible position to take.

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post #13 of 76 (permalink) Old Nov 27th, 19, 11:29 PM
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Re: Original Black Master Cylinders

Perhaps this situation represents different procedures in effect at different times during the model year. An early manufactured and unprotected metal casting would show signs of deterioration. Subsequent QC solutions may have required MCs to be painted to protect them.

I don't know if this is true or not, but I do know that many changes were made in the Assembly Manual that reflected needed alterations to parts used in the assembly process.

I do note from photos in the MCR magazine that the 2 Chevelle COPOs utilize the non-A/C upper radiator hoses that "all" SHP BBCs installed in Chevelles receive... We could talk about that too!

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post #14 of 76 (permalink) Old Nov 28th, 19, 5:56 AM
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Re: Original Black Master Cylinders

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffschevelle View Post
The post Mike just linked above led to multiple links by others to info concluding they were black.
Uh, you may want to read that post again.

Now you're making yourself look silly.

Conclusive, like an "L" on a trim tag?

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post #15 of 76 (permalink) Old Nov 29th, 19, 4:17 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Original Black Master Cylinders

Quote:
Originally Posted by 69SHEVL View Post
Uh, you may want to read that post again.

Now you're making yourself look silly.

Conclusive, like an "L" on a trim tag?
Back atcha. Please actually read what I said, and then actually click the LINK in the other post that you linked, and then actually read all those other posts on the CRG forum (which is what I was referring to). See post #14 in what YOU linked, which says:
.
"I agree with Jeff, everything I have read and along with many original old photos of new cars clearly show the master cylinder was black. John Z who was a supervisor on the Norwood plant assembly line in 69 has confirmed that they were all painted black by the supplier. It was a cheap paint that just didn't last very long.
A great read with a lot of original master cylinder pictures posted on an old CRG thread."
Then click the LINK in that post: https://redirect.viglink.com/?format...%2C%20or%20%3F

Then if you bother to read the contents that that LINK provides, you might see Reply #1 which says:
"The Master Cylinder should be black. Might want to start using that search key both here and team Camaro as many of these answers can be easily found. No the bleeders are not painted as the casting was painted and then it was machined and assembled. So where the tab is in the front where stamping took place and where the two brake lines attach on the side are bare. (examples of machined areas). "
And Reply #3 which says:
"The for sure survivors I've looked at have had the master cylinder painted. According to the latest new addition NCRS 68/69 judging manual it states the following: "The master cylinder was painted a low-gloss or foundry black. A semi-circular machined area at the front of the casting was machined after painting and so should be natural finish. " And "The boss that the brake lines thread into is machined flat after painting and will be natural finish." JohnZ has stated I was there in the assembly plants in the 60's, and Delco-Moraine painted the master cylinders and brake calipers black prior to machining; I never saw one unpainted.

I purchased a late May69 power booster/master cylinder from Jere Stahl that had been given to him from Delco Moraine Engineering. On the production parts list sheet it calls for it to be painted black (see item 24)."
Then it attaches the same factory Declo-Morraine parts list that I referenced here earlier, showing black paint was used.

Then reply #6 which says:
"Another point to consider is the vintage Car mags w/ engine compt photos. Most if not all (Hate to say that ever) the Master Cyl appears black, or Black & rusty from spillage of brake fluid & casting rusting."
Then reply #7 which says:
"It was the cheapest paint and stayed on about a week.
If you look in Corvair trunks, the master often will still have paint."
Then reply #14 which says:
"I would have to concur about the black paint, there is still remnants on my original master cylinder."
My exact words were that what YOU posted "led to multiple links by others to info concluding they were black." To be more clear I probably should have said "led to multiple LINKS AND/OR POSTS by others to info concluding they were black." But what I said is correct regardless. And the word "concluding" (which I used) is not the same as "conclusive" (which you used). A person can "conclude" that the moon is made of cheese, but that is not "conclusive" proof that the moon is made of cheese. Websters is available online now if you want to study the difference in the meaning of those two words.

However, I do think a factory document stating black paint was used on MC's is conclusive, even though I did not say that earlier. To deny that is to say that the manufacturer did not know what it specified for its own parts, and that every worker ignored the mfr's specifications on a daily basis by not applying the paint, and that not one single supervisor or QC person caught that. Now THAT would be a silly assertion.

So far I have provided info on dozens of survivor cars, and a FACTORY document that shows black paint was used. Then you (thanks again) provided a link to an earlier post that led to multiple other posts on CRG stating they were black and providing supporting evidence for that CONCLUSION, including info from a supervisor in an assembly plant stating that they were black. To counter that, so far you have said that one gentleman (and one only) says he remembers they were bare, and you have provided nothing else contemporary to the 60's or based on a legit unrestored car to support your position. But somehow I am the one who is making myself look silly?

We can continue to agree to disagree in a civil manner, and you can continue to ignore overwhelming evidence that is contrary to your position. That is fine since this is a free country. But childish name calling should be left on the school playground. Given that we are all adults here.

Hope you and everyone else on TC had a great Thanksgiving!

Jeff Helms
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