m21 Frankenstein/dispute - Chevelle Tech
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post #1 of 33 (permalink) Old Apr 11th, 16, 10:26 AM Thread Starter
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m21 Frankenstein/dispute

I/m looking for some assistance from someone experienced with Muncie m21's, preferably engaged in the business of rebuilding and or restoring muncies.

I recently purchased what I was led tpo believe was a 1967 Muncie m21 out of a 67 Chevelle SS 396. Bellhousing and trans.

What I got was this, GM bellhousing 3840383 (which is for a mid 60's small block). The Trans is a Muncie 10 spline input with one grove. The main case number is pretty worn but starts 3885___ (which jives with a case made in 67). The stamped number is P7R27 which I believe designates this as a Oct 1967 manufacture. The tailshaft case is a 3846429 driver side speedo, which is a 1963-65 tailshaft and the wrong side for a 67 396 Chevelle. I believe this trans to be a frankenstein. I do nto know what the internals are but It is certainly not what it was described to be. I contacted the seller and he cursed me out, told me he worked for GM for 25 years, that I don't know what I'm talking about, and refused to reimburse me a dime. I opened a claim with pay pal and now Pay Pal needs me to provide a third party letter supporting my claim of this being a frankenstein m21.

Anyone interested in assisting me??

Thanks in advance!

Joe
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post #2 of 33 (permalink) Old Apr 11th, 16, 11:26 AM
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Re: m21 Frankenstein/dispute

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kopfjaeger View Post
I/m looking for some assistance from someone experienced with Muncie m21's, preferably engaged in the business of rebuilding and or restoring muncies.

I recently purchased what I was led tpo believe was a 1967 Muncie m21 out of a 67 Chevelle SS 396. Bellhousing and trans.

What I got was this, GM bellhousing 3840383 (which is for a mid 60's small block). The Trans is a Muncie 10 spline input with one grove. The main case number is pretty worn but starts 3885___ (which jives with a case made in 67). The stamped number is P7R27 which I believe designates this as a Oct 1967 manufacture. The tailshaft case is a 3846429 driver side speedo, which is a 1963-65 tailshaft and the wrong side for a 67 396 Chevelle. I believe this trans to be a frankenstein. I do nto know what the internals are but It is certainly not what it was described to be. I contacted the seller and he cursed me out, told me he worked for GM for 25 years, that I don't know what I'm talking about, and refused to reimburse me a dime. I opened a claim with pay pal and now Pay Pal needs me to provide a third party letter supporting my claim of this being a frankenstein m21.

Anyone interested in assisting me??

Thanks in advance!

Joe
Sadly, you will probably loose that battle as the Pontiac cars used the 429 tail extension through 1970. Crashent can tell you exactly what month and year for Pontiacs. So, your M21 could have been a factory build for a Pontiac.

This forum is a great tool to learn anything and everything about a Chevelle and their related parts. A simple "post" asking what are the correct casting numbers for a 1967 Chevelle M21 Muncie would have saved you a lot of headache. I would have also replied that you need one ID groove, 010 maincase, 685 sidecover, 752 centerplate, and a 584 tail extension for a 1967 Chevelle.

Worst case, you can purchase a 584 tail extension and swap out the 429 tail.

Good luck on your battle.......

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post #3 of 33 (permalink) Old Apr 11th, 16, 11:38 AM
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Re: m21 Frankenstein/dispute

The P7R27 indicates it was built in October of 66 for the '67 model year. One groove is for the M21 so except for the tail housing it sounds like you got exactly what you paid for.
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post #4 of 33 (permalink) Old Apr 11th, 16, 1:12 PM
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Re: m21 Frankenstein/dispute

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Originally Posted by Dave Birdwell View Post
The P7R27 indicates it was built in October of 66 for the '67 model year. One groove is for the M21 so except for the tail housing it sounds like you got exactly what you paid for.
As for the "out of a 67 Chevelle SS 396"... I think unlessthe specific ad wording said it was "correct" for a 1967 Chevelle SS , then you may be out of luck...

If the seller pulled it out of a '67 Chevelle SS, then did he lie or mislead? I guess that's a pitfall when people are expecting "correct" instead of functionally equivalent pieces...

Frankenstein... Yeah, after 45+ years of Muncies, with the first 30+ years with few people caring what was "correct", a lot of these got swapped...

I know with my '66's, it took me about 10+ years to realize that Chevelles had the passenger-side speedo... I had several Chevelles and Muncies, and they all had the drivers-side speedo... Even a shop that rebuilt Muncies didn't know back then... Along came the internet and Team Chevelle, and THEN I learned the correct stuff...

IMO, probably not worth it, unless you can prove you were actually mislead...

Once you go RAT, you never go back...
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post #5 of 33 (permalink) Old Apr 11th, 16, 6:22 PM Thread Starter
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Re: m21 Frankenstein/dispute

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Originally Posted by Dave Birdwell View Post
The P7R27 indicates it was built in October of 66 for the '67 model year. One groove is for the M21 so except for the tail housing it sounds like you got exactly what you paid for.
Dave, not quite, the bellhousing is wrong. It's for a small block. There was no way that trans with that bell housing was on a 1967 SS 396.

I purchased a 69 396 from the guy. The engine was strapped to a pallet with the trans and shipped to me. He knew exactly what I was looking to do since I told him the engine would be going into the vehicle. He said, he had the correct trans with bellhousing for that engine. At least the engine is untouched and standard bore. In that, I got what I paid for..
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post #6 of 33 (permalink) Old Apr 11th, 16, 7:00 PM
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Re: m21 Frankenstein/dispute

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Originally Posted by Kopfjaeger View Post
Dave, not quite, the bellhousing is wrong. It's for a small block. There was no way that trans with that bell housing was on a 1967 SS 396.

I purchased a 69 396 from the guy. The engine was strapped to a pallet with the trans and shipped to me. He knew exactly what I was looking to do since I told him the engine would be going into the vehicle. He said, he had the correct trans with bellhousing for that engine. At least the engine is untouched and standard bore. In that, I got what I paid for..
Does the '69 have a flywheel? If so does the bellhousing fit?

Not "correct", but I have seen people used the small block flywheel on a 396... So it could have come on a 67 SS, just not from the factory...

I would mention the bellhousing separately, and mention that its for a small block and doesn't fit the larger flywheel that came on 396s... While a small flywheel may function, the clutch wouldn't be as durable...

But unless you have something in writing, its going to be difficult to force the guy to do anything...

So you wanted a '67 trans and bellhousing, but weren't worried about the '69 engine?

Once you go RAT, you never go back...
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post #7 of 33 (permalink) Old Apr 11th, 16, 7:56 PM
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Re: m21 Frankenstein/dispute

Is there a VIN stamp on the trans???

VIN stamp could tell Chevy, Pontiac, Buick or Olds...

Thanks... Crash
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post #8 of 33 (permalink) Old Apr 12th, 16, 3:28 AM
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Re: m21 Frankenstein/dispute

>>> So you wanted a '67 trans and bellhousing, but weren't worried about the '69 engine?

oof.

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post #9 of 33 (permalink) Old Apr 12th, 16, 10:14 AM Thread Starter
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Re: m21 Frankenstein/dispute

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Originally Posted by crashent View Post
Is there a VIN stamp on the trans???

VIN stamp could tell Chevy, Pontiac, Buick or Olds...

Thanks... Crash
Yes, beside the P7R27 there is Z109091. Does this help?

Joe
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post #10 of 33 (permalink) Old Apr 12th, 16, 10:28 AM Thread Starter
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Re: m21 Frankenstein/dispute

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>>> So you wanted a '67 trans and bellhousing, but weren't worried about the '69 engine?

oof.
Tom, for the record, I'm not attempting to build a all matching nunbers driveline for my vehicle to increase it's worth. I want the driveline correct but I'm realistic about how much $ I put into making as correct as possible. Yes, a 1967 396 would have been great to have but after 4 months of searching and only finding 67 short blocks for 4k, I decided that it was too costly to go that route. The 67 trans fell in my lap because he said he had it. In all honesty, I wish it were a 69 or later Muncie so It had the drain plug. Oh well.

So to answer your question, Yes, I am OK with the engine being a 69. It's an unmessed with standard bore so I'm very happy with it. What displeases me, and we've gotten off topic here a bit, is the fact that I was told this trans came off a 1967 396 Chevelle SS and would bolt right up. That was a lie, it doesn't. I'd love to pull the side cover off the trans to see what shape everything is inside but since there is a chance I may be sending it back, I'm not opening anything on it. If I lose my case then I'll send her out to me inspected and I'll look for a correct tail housing so I can route the speedo where it needs to be. Thanks

Joe
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post #11 of 33 (permalink) Old Apr 12th, 16, 10:40 AM Thread Starter
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Re: m21 Frankenstein/dispute

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Originally Posted by 1966_L78 View Post
Does the '69 have a flywheel? If so does the bellhousing fit?

Not "correct", but I have seen people used the small block flywheel on a 396... So it could have come on a 67 SS, just not from the factory...

I would mention the bellhousing separately, and mention that its for a small block and doesn't fit the larger flywheel that came on 396s... While a small flywheel may function, the clutch wouldn't be as durable...

But unless you have something in writing, its going to be difficult to force the guy to do anything...

So you wanted a '67 trans and bellhousing, but weren't worried about the '69 engine?
Tony, the bell housing does not fit over the flywheel. I attempted to work out the situation with the seller before escalating with Pay Pal. The amount I paid was factoring in the proper bellhousing for the big block as he assured it was. As you know "621" bell housings are a bit more expensive than "383" housings. I was willing to send him back the 383 in return for reimbursing me the cost of a 621. He flat out refused. The trans may be pristine inside but I won't know that unless I open her up. If I may be sending her back, I'm not opening her up, I do have all the email conversations where he said the trans came out of a 1967 Chevelle SS 396 and would fit the engine he sold me. The first step is a third party letter about how the bellhousing will not fit what he said it would and how the tailshaft housing is incorrect for what he said it was. Unfortunately, it appears that I'm not going to find anyone here to help with that part.

Joe
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post #12 of 33 (permalink) Old Apr 12th, 16, 10:48 AM
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Re: m21 Frankenstein/dispute

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Originally Posted by Kopfjaeger View Post
Yes, beside the P7R27 there is Z109091. Does this help?

Joe
In that con vin number "Z" would indicate Freemont California plant and the 109091 is consistent with an October 66 build date.
So it appears as though the main case is from a 67 Chevelle but the tail shaft is not. However you already stated that you are not looking for numbers correct parts so if the tail shaft works, which it should, then I don't see a problem with that. Only thing is the speedo cable just hooks up to the other side. It appears the only item that wont work is the bell housing.
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post #13 of 33 (permalink) Old Apr 12th, 16, 2:04 PM Thread Starter
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Re: m21 Frankenstein/dispute

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Originally Posted by blm View Post
In that con vin number "Z" would indicate Freemont California plant and the 109091 is consistent with an October 66 build date.
So it appears as though the main case is from a 67 Chevelle but the tail shaft is not. However you already stated that you are not looking for numbers correct parts so if the tail shaft works, which it should, then I don't see a problem with that. Only thing is the speedo cable just hooks up to the other side. It appears the only item that wont work is the bell housing.
Brad,

Awesome!! Thanks for the info about the Z code. My vehicle was equipped with a passenger side mount speedo. The former owner of my vehicle cut the speedo cable on both sides of the passenger side firewall pass through. I'd like to use the correct pass through, so it looks like find a passenger side speedo tail or pick another point for the cable to pass though or find a longer speedo cable that allows me to use the correct pass through and route to the driver side.. I've got a line on a 621 bell housing. Expensive little bugger!

Joe
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post #14 of 33 (permalink) Old Apr 12th, 16, 2:12 PM
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Re: m21 Frankenstein/dispute

The drivers side speedo cable is shorter than the passenger side speedo cable, so your existing cable will work.

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post #15 of 33 (permalink) Old Apr 12th, 16, 3:12 PM Thread Starter
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Re: m21 Frankenstein/dispute

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The drivers side speedo cable is shorter than the passenger side speedo cable, so your existing cable will work.
I wish I still had an intact speedo cable. It's been clipped on both sides of the pass through. Here is the photo of it on the exterior of the firewall. For the driver side speedo, I'm guessing running it back over to the driver side is best accomplished over the top of the bellhousing/trans, then securing it so as not to interfere with the shift linkage?

Joe
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