700R4 and 2004R Transmissions - Chevelle Tech
Transmission & Driveline Transmissions and Differentials

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post #1 of 82 (permalink) Old Nov 28th, 04, 2:12 PM Thread Starter
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Gentelmen I have been reading alot of info in this fourm on these two transmissions.First off these do extremly well in chevelles, 55,56,57 chevys and all types of street rods and I have built thousands of them over 23 years(had a guy install a 2004r in a toyota with a 350 chevy).Please let me add that there some very good web sites also.The bottom line on these units are
1) they can both be updated to be strong units
2) you dont have to pay 2000.00 for one either
If you have any questions on these units contact me by e-mail
Thanks Dan .....excellent fourm team chevelle

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post #2 of 82 (permalink) Old Nov 28th, 04, 4:11 PM
jakeshoe
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So tell us what you do to correct the weak forward drum in a 200-4R for stout combos?
I build my own units and to build a decent 200-4R it is at least $800 in parts at wholesale cost...

No way I'm building one and warrantying it for much less than $2K, much less with any type of decent converter.

Some stuff is cheaper for the 700-R4 due to more availability, but it is a $500 deal in parts to build one of these and it will never be as strong as a 200 due to the input drum/shaft seperating there.
And a Torque Drive Engineeering drum with the heat treat/sleeve setup IF it doesn't leak on air check will still break.

My advice to most guys here is that you get what you pay for, the deal is determining if you can get by with less..
Say you want an OD, have $1200 to spend, have a local vendor build a near stock 200-4R and you are using a mildly built 350 Chevy, you are probably going to be fine.

If you have a 502 crate motor, you better ante up and buy a 200-4R from a reputable vendor that has a good forward drum installed... That would be a $1700+ transmission not including core, converter, etc..
post #3 of 82 (permalink) Old Nov 28th, 04, 5:36 PM
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Jake,
can you recommend any specialty tools for building the 200r4 and other automatics, and are there any decent books out there yet for the 200r4? Rebuilding an auto is something I havent done yet but I have wanted to do for a long time. I have an unknown condition TH350 I figured I would build first. Do you sell parts or can you recommend a distributor?

Dave
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post #4 of 82 (permalink) Old Nov 28th, 04, 5:59 PM
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I don't sell parts. www.bulkpart.com is who I get most of my rebuidl stuff from. I recommend CKPerformance for some specialty stuff.

I would start with a Th350 for learning purposes. CK will soon have a good rebuild/tech manual for the 200-4R, and bulkpart sells ATSG manuals.

You will need soem patience, home made tools, etc.

I use some easily made homemade tools.

3 liter pop bottle, section cut out makes a nice universal lip seal installer...

Cut the head off some bolts for guide/alignment studs.

I use a universal camshaft bearing (Lisle brand, same as all tool trucks) install/removal tool for trans bushings.

A flat piece of glass or tile can be used to do small light surfacing jobs. Or check for flatness.

You'll need some assorted snap ring pliers, feeler guage, 6" calipers, lip seal tools ( .010 feeler guage will also work, I like to have the looped wire one also, which can be made from some tubing and guitar string..).

Then a universal clutch drum compressor will also be handy, but if doing one trans 2 or 3 5-6" C-clamps can work, or other homemade compressor.
post #5 of 82 (permalink) Old Nov 28th, 04, 9:13 PM
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Dave

Here's a link to a pretty good price on a universal compressor I ran across. I'm thinking about getting one before long... I've bought some stuff from bulkpart.com when I did my 700 recently and they have good prices on most of their stuff. Have posted this before but I also wanted to recommend a video for a first time build. It was immensely helpful to me. I think a 350 would be a good candidate for a 1st time rebuild. Parts roundup should be quite less than for the OD's. I have to agree with Jake on the cost factor. I spent over 900 on parts for my rebuild and I shopped around alittle bit. I guess everyone has a different opinion on what a strong unit is.

best regards
Jack



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post #6 of 82 (permalink) Old Nov 28th, 04, 10:06 PM
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Thanks guys, great info as always! I will do the TH350 first and then move up to the 200r4.

Dave
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post #7 of 82 (permalink) Old Nov 29th, 04, 7:47 AM
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Jake is spot-on.....I totally agree. You will not get by inexpensively and have a trans that will hold a lot of power reliably. Up to the 450hp area it is no big deal...move on up and things will break when you do not want them to...

Oldani Motorsports

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post #8 of 82 (permalink) Old Nov 29th, 04, 4:50 PM Thread Starter
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You are right Jake it will run about 800.00 for parts. I am only charging 450.00 for labor and yes that is with a coverter and a 1-year warranty 3years on a show car.450hp is a good number for this set up but lets face it torque not horsepower that breaks parts and the converter is the weakest link.

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post #9 of 82 (permalink) Old Nov 29th, 04, 6:19 PM
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The converter is not the weakest link in a 200-4R.
The direct clutches and 2nd gear band will fail in a stock one LONG before even a stock converter will fail.

Then the stator shaft and sun shell will fail.

Then the forward drum will fail.

Then maybe an input shaft, various other hard parts.

You can buy all the usual rebuild kit stuff with a valve body kit, all new bushings, thrusts, new hardened sun shell and stator required on almost all builds, a good band, and a good servo for ~$500. But if you are going over the 450 lb ft mark, what are you going to do with the forward drum.

Risk it breaking?

If you build for yourself and you are the one replacing it, then it is Ok to risk it. I won't build one for any real power without it.
It's $400 by itself...

So now we are $900 into a decent 200-4R without any labor or converter...

Last decent converter I bought was $380...
That wasn't a lockup unit. They are over $500 for anything for real power with a lockup.

Maybe we skimped an bought an off the shelf unit at call it $350...

That's $1250 and we still need labor.
Add $450 labor, we're now at $1700...

What about core charge? Included in labor?

Are you also supplying a TV cable? GM or aftermarket?

I'm not saying you cannot build one cheaper than $2000, but with a converter, core, and warranty for a car putting out real power... I can't do it.

The converter would kill it for me. I'm not throwing a $120 Dayco converter out and calling it good for a HP car...

Since I build my own and buy the parts I have a good idea what it takes cost wise to do one, and I personally am not buying a $1250 unit, converter included) and expecting it to live behind even my mild BBC.
post #10 of 82 (permalink) Old Nov 29th, 04, 10:09 PM Thread Starter
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Jake I need to set you up with my parts suppliers.Let me start by saying
Core
Master kit with red eagles and koline steels(Altos)Sonnax
Band alto red
Servo billett Sonnax
Intermedent and foward Drum remachined and welded...never had a breakage
Torque converter (Percision)no problems with these converters
New sprags, pump vane and rotor kit
Harden sun shell and stator
Shift improver kit
As far as the input shaft (heat treated)never had a breakage
with labor 1250.00
add 100.00 and I will send them a hayden cooler and a dipstick,tube and cable (GM or aftermarket there choice)
I would stand behind one of these units up to 500 gross HP and not bat a eye, With the warranty I stated.Jake you sound like a good tech,if you wouldnt buy one or sell one at that price that fine (never ment to upset anyone)but after all these years in this business and connections I have aquired, I can. Again I am just trying to give car junkies the best deal I can pass on and the top quality they should recieve no matter who they get there transmissions from
Thanks Dan

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post #11 of 82 (permalink) Old Nov 30th, 04, 9:25 AM
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OK, I have a question for all you tranny guys above.

As most of you know I have been doing these swaps (shade-tree mechanic style) for quite a few years now, and I did however screw one up. The unit lasted about 8K. It was a 700 in a 67 ragtop/ 350 engine with about 350hp/400tq and a 4:10 rear. Mostly crusing miles with less than 10 runs down the track.

From my rebuilder "the TV geometry was off, and was not allowing the proper fluid pressures and not directing the fluid to the right places, this eventually ate up the lockup converter in turn which destroyed the rest of the unit"

How does this sound compared to your professional expierences?


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post #12 of 82 (permalink) Old Dec 5th, 04, 2:38 AM
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both being stock as each can be which is stronger? say a 1979 th350 verses and 2004r from 86 something like a 2plus 2 or grand prix.

same question but both have a 2800 stall ,shift kit and cooler.


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post #13 of 82 (permalink) Old Dec 5th, 04, 3:47 AM
jakeshoe
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TH350 is stronger in both cases.
post #14 of 82 (permalink) Old Dec 6th, 04, 2:47 PM
 
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So, I spent some time at bowtieoverdrives.com. They offer a ~$1000 "Stage II" build of either a 2004r or 700r4, including core but not converter. (TCI's 700 is $2800!!) Some questions...

From the descriptions given, what is not included that should be to support 400 HP / 450 TQ?

For a new build, should I go 200 or 700? Cost is same. Installation would be similar?
Vehicle is a 1951 Chevy pickup, for STREET duty.
383 built for torque, with 3.73 or 3.42 posi rear.

Will this trans hold up on the street (no slicks) with this type of setup?

Many thanks,
mark.
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post #15 of 82 (permalink) Old Dec 6th, 04, 5:36 PM Thread Starter
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I have built numerous 700r4s for 55,56,57 chevys and they are very pleased with the way the operate
They like the low gear and they like overdrive and lockup for highway crusing

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