Clutch pivot ball height/TO alignment - Chevelle Tech
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post #1 of 31 (permalink) Old Sep 7th, 19, 8:29 AM Thread Starter
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Gene
 
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Clutch pivot ball height/TO alignment

Folks, I;ve got the scattersheild aligned aad I;m ready to start assembling the clutch. I tried to find a sticky on the actual clutch fork setup/TO bearing etc. I know Al has mentioned this in some posts.

Are there detailed instructions posted somewhere?

Gene
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post #2 of 31 (permalink) Old Sep 7th, 19, 10:56 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Clutch pivot ball height/TO alignment

I've re-read Al's post and think I can get it close. First issue is getting the fork to seat on the triangular Lakewood pivot head vs the roundy one I removed, Which , incidentally, looked too tall from my first measurement. Also have a spendy adjustable TO for further refinement. First a proper seating of their "odd ball".

BTW, Al recomnends RED Loctite and I ve been banned from its use by my pro tech buds. Blue will have to do.

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post #3 of 31 (permalink) Old Sep 7th, 19, 12:15 PM
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Re: Clutch pivot ball height/TO alignment

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Originally Posted by 427L88 View Post
BTW, Al recomnends RED Loctite and I ve been banned from its use by my pro tech buds. Blue will have to do.
Blue works great IMHO.

I was almost not able to finish adjusting a bolt after applying blue. I am definitely afraid of using red. I've heard people had to use a torch to loosen red loctite.
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post #4 of 31 (permalink) Old Sep 7th, 19, 12:25 PM
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Re: Clutch pivot ball height/TO alignment

Quote:
Originally Posted by 427L88 View Post
Folks, I;ve got the scattersheild aligned aad I;m ready to start assembling the clutch. I tried to find a sticky on the actual clutch fork setup/TO bearing etc. I know Al has mentioned this in some posts.

Are there detailed instructions posted somewhere?
I think I copied Al's recommendations on my other computer at home.

But I think I found one of his threads here :

https://www.chevelles.com/forums/33-...free-play.html
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post #5 of 31 (permalink) Old Sep 7th, 19, 1:49 PM
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Re: Clutch pivot ball height/TO alignment


Gene, this video walk you through the process. Start at 4:20 for the set up process. The start of the video is good for review also.

You'll probably need an extended pilot bushing when using the Lakewood. Your trans input shaft should be supported by the diameter of the shaft. Shaft diameter is .590 so that's how much of the shaft should be supported by the pilot bushing. A straight edge and a little measuring will be needed to check this measurement.

At this point a critical inspection of the installed pilot bushing inside diameter is critical. You need a clearance of .002 to .004. Any tighter and you risk poor shifting as a result of the bushing and shaft grabbing each other. I use a .593 reamer if the bushing is out of spec. Installed is a key word as the bushings usually tighten up a bit after installation.

I've included a picture of the proper clutch fork angle (courtesy of Jody, he doesn't know it but his knowledge really helped me understand clutch set up). This is with the throwout bearing centered over the finger holes and held against the fingers. If you have this and you know your bell housing in aligned in the parallel plane and concentric, you're off to a great start.

With the Lakewood using an engine plate I generally end up using 2 spacers on the Mcleod T.O. BRG. On a Quicktime I really can't tell you, you'll have to eyeball it and YMMV between setups due to variances in the measurements of each part and finger height.

Your pivot ball should look like the one in the attachment. A ball with a flat on the end.

Measurements help get you close, it's the final part where you visually inspect your clutch fork angle that is most important.

I recommend red lock tight because an adjustable pivot ball that comes loose is not a good thing. It means pulling the trans again. Once it's set you should never have to mess with it again if you install the same components. A small torch is needed if you decide to disassemble in the future you just heat the ball a little and when you smell the sweet smell of loctite it will come loose. After learning the hard way I go overkill. Blue loctite may do the trick.

After you have everything dialed in and assembled, before you stab the trans, do a dry mock up run and check your clutch fork angle. You should have a 5-7 degree forward angle of the clutch fork with the t.o. bearing held against the fingers. The front face of the fork is very close to the Lakewood housing window. You can install the linkage and have someone push the clutch pedal while using an old input shaft or alignment tool to hold the disk in place. The throwout bearing is centered on the finger holes during this test. Keep your fingers out of the way, when pushing in the clutch. The t.o. bearing may kick off and take a finger if it's in the way.

The PDF below contains the same info in the video, they are worth a quick read.

Regardless of what Lakewood says, you need to use the stock Chevelle type clutch fork. If you use the Lakewood, truck type or HD type (ALL IDENTIFIED BY HAVING "WINGS") ON A PRE 73Chevelle you will likely encounter relaese issues as the longer fork will cost you travel at the throwout bearing.

This next video describes how to properly install the throwout bearing on the clutch fork. I include it because many people get this incorrect.

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Attached Files
File Type: pdf clutch fork angle measure method.pdf (648.8 KB, 22 views)
File Type: pdf Legend_Bellhousing_Alignment.pdf (263.8 KB, 16 views)
File Type: pdf LAKEWOOD CLUTCH FOEK ANGLE FORK 15500.pdf (20.8 KB, 16 views)
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Last edited by DUTCH MAX HEADWORK; Sep 7th, 19 at 2:07 PM.
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post #6 of 31 (permalink) Old Sep 7th, 19, 4:34 PM
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Re: Clutch pivot ball height/TO alignment

Thanks Al. Great info.
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post #7 of 31 (permalink) Old Sep 7th, 19, 4:59 PM Thread Starter
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Gene
 
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Re: Clutch pivot ball height/TO alignment

Thank you both!

Beth, I used red to put the shifter plate onto my Richmond RR5 speed. *( and Long shifter - which I terribly miss btw!) Yes, only heat will loosen it enough to remove. That's when my bud, who runs the local motor pool for the feds ( a pro) , said us amateurs should NOT have RED in the tool kit. I cant agree more!

Bob is also the one who saved my arse when he showed up with a input shaft and we discovered that the pilot HAD INDEED shrunk ID upon install. a .50 cal brass brush from the gun benched , wrapped in 60 grit did the job. I banged and banged and banged that dang transmission to no avail. While the plastic alignment tool would fit, the input shaft would not.

Luckily, the folks over @ AGE who are in process of upgrading my 10+ year old M23Z, had a pooched input shaft they gave me out of the scrap bin. Makes everything easier.

Al, that Lakewood adjustable pivot ball collar does not seat flush with the face of the bell on the inner side; is it common to have to file flat to flush? It has much fewer threads than what I removed from the scattershield, an unknown part.

ALTHOUGH, upon 2nd thought, I might red Loctite in the ball. I'd hate for it to move on me. Al's spot on again. ( and yes I do have a small bottle stashed! )

Gene
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post #8 of 31 (permalink) Old Sep 7th, 19, 5:16 PM
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Re: Clutch pivot ball height/TO alignment

Quote:
Originally Posted by 427L88 View Post
Thank you both! Beth, I used red to put the shifter plate onto my Richmond RR5 speed. *( and Long shifter - which I terribly miss btw!) Yes, only heat will loosen it enough to remove. That's when my bud, who runs the local motor pool for the feds ( a pro) , said us amateurs should NOT have RED in the tool kit. I cant agree more!

ALTHOUGH I might red in the ball. Al, that Lakewood adjustable does not seat flush with the face of the bell on the inner side; is it common to have to file flat to flush?
If you are talking about the piece that screws into bellhousing, I have seen those protrude past the inside of the bell. Pivot bolt will be adjusted far enough out to negate any interference. But double check it once your pivot ball height is established by installing the fork and checking clearance.

Don't forget to hold your disk up to the mounted flywheel and give a spin to make sure it doesn't hit the flywheel bolts.

Check your disk marcel to make sure the center section is not bent and pressure plate fingers should be even when looking at them from the side. Sometimes mounting into a system that had a bad bellhousing alignment can bend or damage these items. If you are reusing used parts, a close inspection is important.

This document by Centerforce is worth a read. Particularly if you are replacing a damaged or improperly functioning clutch. It will give you heads up on what to look for and catch problems before they arise.

One of the latest things I learned, was that if you are using a Centerforce disc, you should use their flywheel. Same for other manufacturers. This is because the finish they may flywheel differently and mixing and matching can result in chatter. Of course, it's a YMMV type of thing. I've been mixing and matching my entire life. Not sure if true, but the info came from a highly reputable source that we all know.
Attached Files
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post #9 of 31 (permalink) Old Sep 7th, 19, 5:37 PM
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Re: Clutch pivot ball height/TO alignment

Red lock tight is the best, but don't use it on anything you can't easily get heat to without damaging anything. IF this case a small propane torch on the pivot ball itself will break the bond of the loctite.

If you are using an adjustable pivot ball and your clutch is losing it's adjustment a lot faster than it would due to regular wear, that pivot ball becomes highly suspect. I've seen a few times and heard about it many more times. I despise pulling a trans, so I try my best to make sure I don't get too good at it. I'm getting too old for this ship, bench pressing trannies was never my thing.

5 speeds .com was a good source for the extended pilot bushing if needed. He has an ebay account that may have them. Autogear also carries the bushings and Jody's transmission carries them and the best shims if needed for bell housing alignment.
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post #10 of 31 (permalink) Old Sep 7th, 19, 8:37 PM
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Re: Clutch pivot ball height/TO alignment

Quote:
Originally Posted by DUTCH MAX HEADWORK View Post
Part 16 How To Set The Clutch Fork Pivot Ball Height For The Big Block Chevy - YouTube

Gene, this video walk you through the process. Start at 4:20 for the set up process. The start of the video is good for review also.

You'll probably need an extended pilot bushing when using the Lakewood. Your trans input shaft should be supported by the diameter of the shaft. Shaft diameter is .590 so that's how much of the shaft should be supported by the pilot bushing. A straight edge and a little measuring will be needed to check this measurement.

At this point a critical inspection of the installed pilot bushing inside diameter is critical. You need a clearance of .002 to .004. Any tighter and you risk poor shifting as a result of the bushing and shaft grabbing each other. I use a .593 reamer if the bushing is out of spec. Installed is a key word as the bushings usually tighten up a bit after installation.

I've included a picture of the proper clutch fork angle (courtesy of Jody, he doesn't know it but his knowledge really helped me understand clutch set up). This is with the throwout bearing centered over the finger holes and held against the fingers. If you have this and you know your bell housing in aligned in the parallel plane and concentric, you're off to a great start.

With the Lakewood using an engine plate I generally end up using 2 spacers on the Mcleod T.O. BRG. On a Quicktime I really can't tell you, you'll have to eyeball it and YMMV between setups due to variances in the measurements of each part and finger height.

Your pivot ball should look like the one in the attachment. A ball with a flat on the end.

Measurements help get you close, it's the final part where you visually inspect your clutch fork angle that is most important.

I recommend red lock tight because an adjustable pivot ball that comes loose is not a good thing. It means pulling the trans again. Once it's set you should never have to mess with it again if you install the same components. A small torch is needed if you decide to disassemble in the future you just heat the ball a little and when you smell the sweet smell of loctite it will come loose. After learning the hard way I go overkill. Blue loctite may do the trick.

After you have everything dialed in and assembled, before you stab the trans, do a dry mock up run and check your clutch fork angle. You should have a 5-7 degree forward angle of the clutch fork with the t.o. bearing held against the fingers. The front face of the fork is very close to the Lakewood housing window. You can install the linkage and have someone push the clutch pedal while using an old input shaft or alignment tool to hold the disk in place. The throwout bearing is centered on the finger holes during this test. Keep your fingers out of the way, when pushing in the clutch. The t.o. bearing may kick off and take a finger if it's in the way.

The PDF below contains the same info in the video, they are worth a quick read.

Regardless of what Lakewood says, you need to use the stock Chevelle type clutch fork. If you use the Lakewood, truck type or HD type (ALL IDENTIFIED BY HAVING "WINGS") ON A PRE 73Chevelle you will likely encounter relaese issues as the longer fork will cost you travel at the throwout bearing.

This next video describes how to properly install the throwout bearing on the clutch fork. I include it because many people get this incorrect.

GM Release Bearing Installation - YouTube
Al,
Thanks for posting this up. I am also doing this set up this weekend. I have 2 questions:

1. My flywheel is not OE and my total flywheel thickness is 1.235 inches. My bolt flange to table surface (friction side down) is 0.9695. From the method in the video, 1.2350-0.9695= 0.2655. Then, 4.750-0.2655=4.4845. Then I adjust top of clutch for pivot ball (also a Lakewood) to bellhousing (engine side) to 4.4845. DOes this look right? Can I still use the 4.75 reference number.

2. WHen I tighten the nut to lock the clutch fork pivot ball, the bolt holding nut?? (picture) on the back side loosens up and moves the pivot ball. Any recommendations how the get the bolt holding nut?? tighter?
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post #11 of 31 (permalink) Old Sep 7th, 19, 9:19 PM
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Re: Clutch pivot ball height/TO alignment

I think as long as you clean the threads well (maybe spray with brake cleaner),
applying blue loctite will hold it. Especially if you set it quickly and don't keep turning the bolt.

What's your opinion about using expensive "SFI" certified flywheels as opposed to stock GM stuff ?

I'm using the stock 621 aluminum bellhousing and plan on using a stock flywheel.

My engine is a wolfplace rotating assembly - internally balanced with center counterweights - probably good for 7000+ rpm.

I don't think I'll ever rev it over 5800.

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post #12 of 31 (permalink) Old Sep 7th, 19, 10:23 PM
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Re: Clutch pivot ball height/TO alignment

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcor12 View Post
Al,
Thanks for posting this up. I am also doing this set up this weekend. I have 2 questions:

1. My flywheel is not OE and my total flywheel thickness is 1.235 inches. My bolt flange to table surface (friction side down) is 0.9695. From the method in the video, 1.2350-0.9695= 0.2655. Then, 4.750-0.2655=4.4845. Then I adjust top of clutch for pivot ball (also a Lakewood) to bellhousing (engine side) to 4.4845. DOes this look right? Can I still use the 4.75 reference number.

2. WHen I tighten the nut to lock the clutch fork pivot ball, the bolt holding nut?? (picture) on the back side loosens up and moves the pivot ball. Any recommendations how the get the bolt holding nut?? tighter?
The 4.75 is based on factory parts and dimensions. We add or subtract to the pivot ball height to make up for variances in parts dimensions from factory spec. By doing this we ensure that the clutch fork angle will come out correctly so the stock clutch linkage still has enough movement to properly release the clutch and still maintain a proper air gap or clutch adjustment. YES, THE 4.75 INCH STILL APPLIES.

Here's what I come up with for your numbers. Your flywheel is actually thicker than the stock flywheel if you measured correctly. Your total flywheel thickness of 1.2350 never comes to play in the formula. Place the clutch surface on a flat surface face down. Then measure from the flat surface to the top of the bolt hole mounting surface. Your reported measurement is .9695 and stock flywheel measurement is .960. Since your total is a negative number .0095 you actually reduce the stock pivotball height to 4.745. Without a block plate you use a straight edge across the bellhousing and engine mounting surface and set your pivotball height to 4.7405 to be dead nuts. In actually, you are close enough to spec you can use a stock pivot ball. Don't trust my numbers, check them yourself. Below is a pdf you can use for the calculations.

The proof of correct pivotball height comes when you install the assembly and visually check your clutch fork angle. Success shows a 5-7 degree forward angle of the clutch fork. It's difficult to get a picture of this in the car, but you can slide your phone up and get a shot looking into the bellhousing as close to perpendicular to the trans shaft as possible. Depending on the picture, you can post it up and I may be able to verify that adjustment from here. I need to see a shot similar to the one in the above post.

That inset will be tightened into the bellhousing and will never need to be removed again. Red lock tight it and tighten as tight as you can into the bell housing. If it won't stay tight stake the insert from both sides in numerous places. It should stay tight. You are using an adjustable pivot ball correct? It won't fall out because most transmissions partially cover it. But you don't want it coming loose because a little means a lot in this case.

See the video on staking.

Attached Files
File Type: pdf clutch fork angle measure method (4).pdf (648.8 KB, 9 views)

Last edited by DUTCH MAX HEADWORK; Sep 7th, 19 at 10:45 PM.
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post #13 of 31 (permalink) Old Sep 7th, 19, 10:36 PM
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Re: Clutch pivot ball height/TO alignment

Quote:
Originally Posted by nashville beth View Post

What's your opinion about using expensive "SFI" certified flywheels as opposed to stock GM stuff ?

I'm using the stock 621 aluminum bellhousing and plan on using a stock flywheel.

My engine is a wolfplace rotating assembly - internally balanced with center counterweights - probably good for 7000+ rpm.

I don't think I'll ever rev it over 5800.
My opinion on that is I like my legs and need them to continue living a joyful life.

I run both and my shifts are at 6500. A missed shift might push that number if you don't run a limiter. If you want to keep that external stock appearance, at the least I would run a sfi approved flywheel. But to be safer, a sfi approved bell housing with an engine saver plate is the way to go.

Pictures are not from my car, but show what can happen when a flywheel lets go. There's a lot of mass there spinning at high rpm.
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post #14 of 31 (permalink) Old Sep 7th, 19, 11:32 PM
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Re: Clutch pivot ball height/TO alignment

Quote:
Originally Posted by nashville beth View Post
I think as long as you clean the threads well (maybe spray with brake cleaner),
applying blue loctite will hold it. Especially if you set it quickly and don't keep turning the bolt.

What's your opinion about using expensive "SFI" certified flywheels as opposed to stock GM stuff ?

I'm using the stock 621 aluminum bellhousing and plan on using a stock flywheel.

My engine is a wolfplace rotating assembly - internally balanced with center counterweights - probably good for 7000+ rpm.

I don't think I'll ever rev it over 5800.
Thats what I was thinking...using blue (or red?? =) ) loctite. Its just hard to get a good torque on that insert.


I dont really have any experience or knowledge regarding SFI vs stock flywheel. This is new territory for me...first auto to 4 speed conversion.
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post #15 of 31 (permalink) Old Sep 7th, 19, 11:46 PM
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Re: Clutch pivot ball height/TO alignment

Quote:
Originally Posted by DUTCH MAX HEADWORK View Post
The 4.75 is based on factory parts and dimensions. We add or subtract to the pivot ball height to make up for variances in parts dimensions from factory spec. By doing this we ensure that the clutch fork angle will come out correctly so the stock clutch linkage still has enough movement to properly release the clutch and still maintain a proper air gap or clutch adjustment. YES, THE 4.75 INCH STILL APPLIES.

Here's what I come up with for your numbers. Your flywheel is actually thicker than the stock flywheel if you measured correctly. Your total flywheel thickness of 1.2350 never comes to play in the formula. Place the clutch surface on a flat surface face down. Then measure from the flat surface to the top of the bolt hole mounting surface. Your reported measurement is .9695 and stock flywheel measurement is .960. Since your total is a negative number .0095 you actually reduce the stock pivotball height to 4.745. Without a block plate you use a straight edge across the bellhousing and engine mounting surface and set your pivotball height to 4.7405 to be dead nuts. In actually, you are close enough to spec you can use a stock pivot ball. Don't trust my numbers, check them yourself. Below is a pdf you can use for the calculations.

The proof of correct pivotball height comes when you install the assembly and visually check your clutch fork angle. Success shows a 5-7 degree forward angle of the clutch fork. It's difficult to get a picture of this in the car, but you can slide your phone up and get a shot looking into the bellhousing as close to perpendicular to the trans shaft as possible. Depending on the picture, you can post it up and I may be able to verify that adjustment from here. I need to see a shot similar to the one in the above post.

That inset will be tightened into the bellhousing and will never need to be removed again. Red lock tight it and tighten as tight as you can into the bell housing. If it won't stay tight stake the insert from both sides in numerous places. It should stay tight. You are using an adjustable pivot ball correct? It won't fall out because most transmissions partially cover it. But you don't want it coming loose because a little means a lot in this case.

See the video on staking.

TIP: Poor Mans Loctite (a.k.a. staking a nut) - YouTube
Thank you for the reply. The engine/trans are out of the car (67 camaro BTW), so I can get a good picture.

I bought the muncie, flywheel, clutch, PP, hurst shifter, etc from guy who had it on a big block 454. My engine is a 350. I need to buy another flywheel...maybe more???
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