Clutch pivot ball height/TO alignment - Page 2 - Chevelle Tech
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post #16 of 31 (permalink) Old Sep 8th, 19, 12:55 AM
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Re: Clutch pivot ball height/TO alignment

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcor12 View Post
Thank you for the reply. The engine/trans are out of the car (67 camaro BTW), so I can get a good picture.

I bought the muncie, flywheel, clutch, PP, hurst shifter, etc from guy who had it on a big block 454. My engine is a 350. I need to buy another flywheel...maybe more???
You will most likely need a flywheel for a 350, depending on the year/rear main seal type of your 350. Pre 86 350's had an internally balanced flywheel, meaning they are neutral balanced flywheels. From about 1986, the rear seals on the engine went to one-piece seals. These engines had externally balanced flywheels and the flywheels had extra weight added to one side. The 454 flywheel is externally balanced. If the weight is removable you can use it for the pre 86 two piece rear main seal engines. I'm not sure the weight is the same size between the 454 and exxternally weighted 350 flywheel so not sure of compatibility. Most 454's use an 11 inch clutch, so you'll have to check the diapragm size and get a flywheel to match. Some flywheels come with mounting holes for various size diaphragm mounting and clutch size.

You'll have to identify the engine, then pick the proper size and type of flywheel. If you need help on that, I suggest you ask the question in the engine forum. I don't want any chance of steering you wrong. Make sure you mention your clutch size you intend to install. You may also need a starter for a 4 speed application.

The 454 more than likely had 163 tooth flywheel with mounting for an 11 inch clutch, Your 350 starter is probably for an automatic and is set up for a 153 tooth flywheel/flexplate.

I'm almost certain that the bell cranks and mounting are different on a Camaro. They also differ by year and between big and small block. I didn't catch the year of your Camaro, but for 67 to 69 small blocks you'll need this bellcrank and mounting kit. If you need pedals, again different between Camaro and Chevelle, this same seller has good kits available. https://www.4speedconversions.com/67-69_f_linkage.html OK...went back and caught the year, 67 small block Camaro. The link contains the info for the bellcrank and linkage kit. This is your pedal kit, please confirm the correct parts before ordering...https://www.4speedconversions.com/3999496_1.html

So you see, it can get confusing really fast.
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Last edited by DUTCH MAX HEADWORK; Sep 8th, 19 at 1:24 AM.
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post #17 of 31 (permalink) Old Sep 8th, 19, 7:01 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Clutch pivot ball height/TO alignment

Beth, so the pros I know ( Pro Mod crew chiefs, ,etc), all agreed that if I wasnt running a scattershield ( which I am now), I should at the LEAST use a steel billet flywheel.

I have three internal balance wheels I'd like to lighten up on, the OEM nodular iron one I ran initially, a HEAVY 36lb Centerforce and a 28 lbs Hayes. Would you like one, cheap? If I reuse my 427 it will be with a 4000 rpm stall, not clutch.

Joe, I;m with ya on that collar thingy, hard to tighten and mine sticks up on one side, not flush with scattershield surface, the one where the trans mounts.

Also, Al is correct , SB setups are 153 tooth wheels and the 10.5" clutch. although the BBC wheels are drilled for both 11" and 10.5" clutches.
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post #18 of 31 (permalink) Old Sep 8th, 19, 8:06 AM
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Re: Clutch pivot ball height/TO alignment

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Originally Posted by 427L88 View Post
Beth, so the pros I know ( Pro Mod crew chiefs, ,etc), all agreed that if I wasnt running a scattershield ( which I am now), I should at the LEAST use a steel billet flywheel.

I have three internal balance wheels I'd like to lighten up on, the OEM nodular iron one I ran initially, a HEAVY 36lb Centerforce and a 28 lbs Hayes. Would you like one, cheap? If I reuse my 427 it will be with a 4000 rpm stall, not clutch.

Joe, I;m with ya on that collar thingy, hard to tighten and mine sticks up on one side, not flush with scattershield surface, the one where the trans mounts.

Also, Al is correct , SB setups are 153 tooth wheels and the 10.5" clutch. although the BBC wheels are drilled for both 11" and 10.5" clutches.
Is the Hayes a steel billet ? You were using these on internally balanced 427's ?

My 489 is internally balanced.

I think Joe should run the 11" clutch setup. Just get an ebay starter that most guys on here are using :
https://www.ebay.com/itm/273814109828

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post #19 of 31 (permalink) Old Sep 8th, 19, 10:11 AM
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Re: Clutch pivot ball height/TO alignment

Quote:
Originally Posted by DUTCH MAX HEADWORK View Post
You will most likely need a flywheel for a 350, depending on the year/rear main seal type of your 350. Pre 86 350's had an internally balanced flywheel, meaning they are neutral balanced flywheels. From about 1986, the rear seals on the engine went to one-piece seals. These engines had externally balanced flywheels and the flywheels had extra weight added to one side. The 454 flywheel is externally balanced. If the weight is removable you can use it for the pre 86 two piece rear main seal engines. I'm not sure the weight is the same size between the 454 and exxternally weighted 350 flywheel so not sure of compatibility. Most 454's use an 11 inch clutch, so you'll have to check the diapragm size and get a flywheel to match. Some flywheels come with mounting holes for various size diaphragm mounting and clutch size.



You'll have to identify the engine, then pick the proper size and type of flywheel. If you need help on that, I suggest you ask the question in the engine forum. I don't want any chance of steering you wrong. Make sure you mention your clutch size you intend to install. You may also need a starter for a 4 speed application.



The 454 more than likely had 163 tooth flywheel with mounting for an 11 inch clutch, Your 350 starter is probably for an automatic and is set up for a 153 tooth flywheel/flexplate.



I'm almost certain that the bell cranks and mounting are different on a Camaro. They also differ by year and between big and small block. I didn't catch the year of your Camaro, but for 67 to 69 small blocks you'll need this bellcrank and mounting kit. If you need pedals, again different between Camaro and Chevelle, this same seller has good kits available. https://www.4speedconversions.com/67-69_f_linkage.html OK...went back and caught the year, 67 small block Camaro. The link contains the info for the bellcrank and linkage kit. This is your pedal kit, please confirm the correct parts before ordering...https://www.4speedconversions.com/3999496_1.html



So you see, it can get confusing really fast.
The 350 is a mid 1970s. I just measured the clutch and PP at 11 7/8 inches diameter. Sounds like I need new flywheel, PP, and clutch. And a starter. etc.

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post #20 of 31 (permalink) Old Sep 8th, 19, 7:37 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Clutch pivot ball height/TO alignment

Quote:
Originally Posted by nashville beth View Post
Is the Hayes a steel billet ? You were using these on internally balanced 427's ?

My 489 is internally balanced.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/273814109828
The CF and Hayes are indeed steel billet. And yes, both were bolted onto the 427 at some point.

PS, one reason I am bothering with a Lakewood bell this time is that my 454 Hayes wheel is made in... ugh.. you know where... NOT Indiana. Yet, the flywheel is part of the engine assembly now as it was balanced with it on there.

All my 427 wheels are USA made. Like it used to be. PS, I believe McLeod are still, if you are looking to buy new. Didn't check CF as they're heavy.

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Last edited by 427L88; Sep 8th, 19 at 7:58 PM.
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post #21 of 31 (permalink) Old Sep 10th, 19, 9:19 PM
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Re: Clutch pivot ball height/TO alignment

Quote:
Originally Posted by 427L88 View Post
The CF and Hayes are indeed steel billet. And yes, both were bolted onto the 427 at some point.

PS, one reason I am bothering with a Lakewood bell this time is that my 454 Hayes wheel is made in... ugh.. you know where... NOT Indiana. Yet, the flywheel is part of the engine assembly now as it was balanced with it on there.

All my 427 wheels are USA made. Like it used to be. PS, I believe McLeod are still, if you are looking to buy new. Didn't check CF as they're heavy.
Gene,

I am in no rush for your Hayes 427 flywheel, but I'd like to have it.
PM me for what you want. I expect shipping will be expensive - maybe $25-30.

And to help you sleep at night - it will be bolted to a WOLFPLACE rotating assembly !

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post #22 of 31 (permalink) Old Sep 11th, 19, 12:10 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Clutch pivot ball height/TO alignment

Sure Beth. I wont be using it. Still bolted to the 427, and I would defintely have it blanchard ground although as you'll see, it doesn't need much cleanup. Dont know how much to ship 30 lbs ( with packaging ) from zip code 14075 to you via UPS, but it wont be cheap. Once I pull it, I was going to wet it with WD40 and simply pack it for resale. Let me know when you;d like it. No rush.

Payment in advance; pls tell Tom M to get that darn Qjet to me, as I have to ship Mark's back to him soon, and I should have this buggy up and running in short order ! Mark is having a gentleman named Harold Bettis make up a "highly modified" Q for me as well, yet that's an "if come" deal, no guarantees.

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post #23 of 31 (permalink) Old Sep 12th, 19, 10:29 AM
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Re: Clutch pivot ball height/TO alignment

This is all very interesting information here.
Next year I'm planning on a new clutch,it will quite likely be another LuK # 04-020,here;
https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/luk-04-020
I've had good luck with the LuK clutch,no pun intended,LOL
I'm also using a Hayes TOB,# 70-101,;
https://www.summitracing.com/int/par...-101/overview/
This is the regular height 1.288 inch model.I use this one over the one that came with the clutch kit as it is all steel construction vs. the steel/plastic one in the kit.
My Lakewood safety bellhousing has a Lakewood adjustable pivot ball;
https://www.summitracing.com/int/par...5501/overview/
I have it so it shifts fairly good,but I feel there is room for improvement.
The bellhousing has been aligned as per Lakewood's bellhousing alignment procedure,but I have never done the measurements as per the video and Al or checked the clutch fork angle.
I wonder if Bill CDN SS ever got his working properly in the thread that Beth linked to?? ;
https://www.chevelles.com/forums/33-...free-play.html
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post #24 of 31 (permalink) Old Sep 12th, 19, 12:03 PM
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Re: Clutch pivot ball height/TO alignment

I feel I might be a bit qualified to add some input here since Al posts my personal pictures and article that I wrote for Legend!

The 4.750" pivotball height vs a .960" thick flywheel is Centerforce Clutches instructions and their instructions taken from GM Engineering. Clutch manufactures do not have an "industry standard" of what their clutch height fingers are when installed on a flywheel. So, you need to use the 5-7* clutch fork forward angle to achieve engagement/disengagement balance.

The 1964-1972 Chevelle utilizes a 1-1/2" overall height pivotball. Sometimes I will use the GM fixed 1-5/8" or 1-3/4" overall height pivotball, just depends on the bellhousing type and flywheel thickness used. I NO LONGER ENDORSE using an adjustable pivotball, as you might find in some of my posts from years ago.

Using the 1-1/2", 1-5/8", or 1-3/4" fixed height pivotball with the McLeod 16505 (largest diameter TOB on the market) is my standard recipe for longevity and performance. Sorry, you guys running a Centerforce clutch with the weight system cannot use the McLeod 16505 TOB unless you have removed the weight system.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DUTCH MAX HEADWORK View Post
Part 16 How To Set The Clutch Fork Pivot Ball Height For The Big Block Chevy - YouTube

Gene, this video walk you through the process. Start at 4:20 for the set up process. The start of the video is good for review also.

You'll probably need an extended pilot bushing when using the Lakewood. Your trans input shaft should be supported by the diameter of the shaft. Shaft diameter is .590 so that's how much of the shaft should be supported by the pilot bushing. A straight edge and a little measuring will be needed to check this measurement.

At this point a critical inspection of the installed pilot bushing inside diameter is critical. You need a clearance of .002 to .004. Any tighter and you risk poor shifting as a result of the bushing and shaft grabbing each other. I use a .593 reamer if the bushing is out of spec. Installed is a key word as the bushings usually tighten up a bit after installation.

I've included a picture of the proper clutch fork angle (courtesy of Jody, he doesn't know it but his knowledge really helped me understand clutch set up). This is with the throwout bearing centered over the finger holes and held against the fingers. If you have this and you know your bell housing in aligned in the parallel plane and concentric, you're off to a great start.

With the Lakewood using an engine plate I generally end up using 2 spacers on the Mcleod T.O. BRG. On a Quicktime I really can't tell you, you'll have to eyeball it and YMMV between setups due to variances in the measurements of each part and finger height.

Your pivot ball should look like the one in the attachment. A ball with a flat on the end.

Measurements help get you close, it's the final part where you visually inspect your clutch fork angle that is most important.

I recommend red lock tight because an adjustable pivot ball that comes loose is not a good thing. It means pulling the trans again. Once it's set you should never have to mess with it again if you install the same components. A small torch is needed if you decide to disassemble in the future you just heat the ball a little and when you smell the sweet smell of loctite it will come loose. After learning the hard way I go overkill. Blue loctite may do the trick.

After you have everything dialed in and assembled, before you stab the trans, do a dry mock up run and check your clutch fork angle. You should have a 5-7 degree forward angle of the clutch fork with the t.o. bearing held against the fingers. The front face of the fork is very close to the Lakewood housing window. You can install the linkage and have someone push the clutch pedal while using an old input shaft or alignment tool to hold the disk in place. The throwout bearing is centered on the finger holes during this test. Keep your fingers out of the way, when pushing in the clutch. The t.o. bearing may kick off and take a finger if it's in the way.

The PDF below contains the same info in the video, they are worth a quick read.

Regardless of what Lakewood says, you need to use the stock Chevelle type clutch fork. If you use the Lakewood, truck type or HD type (ALL IDENTIFIED BY HAVING "WINGS") ON A PRE 73Chevelle you will likely encounter relaese issues as the longer fork will cost you travel at the throwout bearing.

This next video describes how to properly install the throwout bearing on the clutch fork. I include it because many people get this incorrect.

GM Release Bearing Installation - YouTube

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post #25 of 31 (permalink) Old Sep 12th, 19, 12:24 PM
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Re: Clutch pivot ball height/TO alignment

Jody,it looks like that McLeod TOB # 16505 is an adjustable one.Why do you use this one ??
And why don't you recommend the adjustable pivot ball ??
And if I'm reading you correctly,you don't use the measurement calculation but rather just go by the clutch fork angle ??
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post #26 of 31 (permalink) Old Sep 12th, 19, 12:28 PM
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Re: Clutch pivot ball height/TO alignment

Quote:
Originally Posted by JodysTransmissions View Post
I feel I might be a bit qualified to add some input here since Al posts my personal pictures and article that I wrote for Legend!



The 4.750" pivotball height vs a .960" thick flywheel is Centerforce Clutches instructions and their instructions taken from GM Engineering. Clutch manufactures do not have an "industry standard" of what their clutch height fingers are when installed on a flywheel. So, you need to use the 5-7* clutch fork forward angle to achieve engagement/disengagement balance.



The 1964-1972 Chevelle utilizes a 1-1/2" overall height pivotball. Sometimes I will use the GM fixed 1-5/8" or 1-3/4" overall height pivotball, just depends on the bellhousing type and flywheel thickness used. I NO LONGER ENDORSE using an adjustable pivotball, as you might find in some of my posts from years ago.



Using the 1-1/2", 1-5/8", or 1-3/4" fixed height pivotball with the McLeod 16505 (largest diameter TOB on the market) is my standard recipe for longevity and performance. Sorry, you guys running a Centerforce clutch with the weight system cannot use the McLeod 16505 TOB unless you have removed the weight system.
Jody,
Thanks for chiming in. I have a Ram clutch kit (10.5 inch disc) and PFT flywheel. For my application, 1967 camaro small block chevy (350), muncie, is your recommended pivot ball height the same?

Can I measure 5-7 * clutch fork angle or is that more of a visual check?

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Last edited by jcor12; Sep 12th, 19 at 12:46 PM.
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post #27 of 31 (permalink) Old Sep 12th, 19, 10:19 PM
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Re: Clutch pivot ball height/TO alignment

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuysMonteSS View Post
Jody, it looks like that McLeod TOB # 16505 is an adjustable one. Why do you use this one ?? Guy
The McLeod 16505 adjustable TOB will do the same thing as an adjustable pivotball. Add your 1-3 supplied spacers to the McLeod 16505 TOB to increase the 5-7 degree forward clutch fork angle. The 16505 is also a time saver and allows you to easily dial in the clutch fork angle without removing the bellhousing.

Truthfully, many installers get the math wrong when a flywheel measures .735" thick as the 4.750" now needs to be 4.525" add a blocksaver plate of .125" and now your pivotball height is 4.400"

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuysMonteSS View Post
And why don't you recommend the adjustable pivot ball ?? Guy
I just had another guy contact me today discussing his adjustable pivotball unthreaded itself in service. This happens quite often using the too short Mr Gasket 3855G adjustable pivotball with a deeper than stock bellhousing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuysMonteSS View Post
And if I'm reading you correctly, you don't use the measurement calculation but rather just go by the clutch fork angle ?? Guy
The 4.750" pivotball height vs a .960" thick flywheel is great for a Centerforce and stock GM clutch as that is their engineered setup instructions.

But, to answer your question, I use the clutch fork angle method using the McLeod 16505 TOB! Another reason for the 16505, it is the largest diameter TOB on market and when properly setup, it will out last the clutch!
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post #28 of 31 (permalink) Old Sep 12th, 19, 10:32 PM
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Re: Clutch pivot ball height/TO alignment

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcor12 View Post
Jody, I have a Ram clutch kit (10.5 inch disc) and PFT flywheel. For my application, 1967 camaro small block chevy (350), muncie, is your recommended pivot ball height the same?
You have a Ram clutch and PFT flywheel, you do not want to use Centerforce's clutch setup instructions using the measured pivotball height?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jcor12 View Post
Jody, Can I measure 5-7 * clutch fork angle or is that more of a visual check?
It's more of a visual of the back side of the clutch fork at the pivotball area to the TOB

The attached picture is my QuickTime bellhousing in my '70 Chevelle showcasing the 5-7* clutch for angle.
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post #29 of 31 (permalink) Old Sep 13th, 19, 7:13 AM
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Re: Clutch pivot ball height/TO alignment

Quote:
Originally Posted by JodysTransmissions View Post
The McLeod 16505 adjustable TOB will do the same thing as an adjustable pivotball. Add your 1-3 supplied spacers to the McLeod 16505 TOB to increase the 5-7 degree forward clutch fork angle. The 16505 is also a time saver and allows you to easily dial in the clutch fork angle without removing the bellhousing.

Truthfully, many installers get the math wrong when a flywheel measures .735" thick as the 4.750" now needs to be 4.525" add a blocksaver plate of .125" and now your pivotball height is 4.400"



I just had another guy contact me today discussing his adjustable pivotball unthreaded itself in service. This happens quite often using the too short Mr Gasket 3855G adjustable pivotball with a deeper than stock bellhousing.



The 4.750" pivotball height vs a .960" thick flywheel is great for a Centerforce and stock GM clutch as that is their engineered setup instructions.

But, to answer your question, I use the clutch fork angle method using the McLeod 16505 TOB! Another reason for the 16505, it is the largest diameter TOB on market and when properly setup, it will out last the clutch!
Jody,Thank You for taking the time to answer my questions.
I appreciate it
Sounds like that # 16505 will be making it's way into my shopping cart !!
Guy

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Isky .904 EZX Roll lifters,
Thanks to Mike "Wolfplace" Lewis,
Weiand Stealth intake,ported & gasket matched,
825 Mighty Demon,tuned by jmarkaudio,
2 inch Hooker Headers,(Coated),
Doug Nash 4+1 5 speed,w/a couple of cryo treated gears,
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post #30 of 31 (permalink) Old Sep 17th, 19, 12:06 AM
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Re: Clutch pivot ball height/TO alignment

Ok, so I looked over the parts carnage with the local guy who contacted me about using the adjustable pivotball.

Here is what I found going through his setup

He was using a Lakewood blowproof bellhousing & scattershield which is deeper than a stock 403 or 621 aluminum bellhousing. He was also running a Hays 10-125 25lb flywheel which measured .820" thick and a Ram clutch. He used the Mr. Gasket 3855G adjustable pivotball.

Apparently he was off a bit on his calculations setting up the adjustable pivotball, he only had 2 threads deep on the pivotball stem into the assembly. The Mr Gasket 3855G adjustable pivotball was too short for the application. He also said he read about using one on a car forum. The McLeod 16909 adjustable pivotball has an overall length of 3" and you shorten the stem for the proper fitment would have been a better option.

But, to make things worse, he was sitting in traffic, revving the engine with the clutch pedal depressed, the adjustable pivotball broke, the clutch engaged, and he ran into the back of the car in front of him causing a lot of damage to both vehicles.

I welcome guys like Al or anyone else to post my tech stuff on any forum, that's why I post things. I am a car guy at heart and hopefully some of my stuff helps guys but, my main concern is safety for all. Our cars are getting faster with more and more needed custom parts to tie things together. Sometimes a setup recipe gets too complicated where there are easier and safer methods.

With this public announcement and for liability reasons, I do not endorse anyone using an adjustable pivotball. Seeing a few broken adjustable pivotball setups is a few too many.
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