r134a numbers with stock Condenser & replacement POA - Page 3 - Chevelle Tech
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post #31 of 78 (permalink) Old Aug 23rd, 19, 12:07 PM Thread Starter
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Harry
 
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Re: r134a numbers with stock Condenser & replacement POA

The parallel flow condenser, dryer, & expansion valve arrived from Original air (Tampa, Fl). It looks like it will work perfect with all my old lines, and the mounting brackets look perfect. I like how the dryer and condenser are painted black. I am still waiting on the evaporator and r134a POA valve. Here are some pics of the condenser:







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Harry
1970 Chevelle SS396 (408), Fathom Blue,
Original Block & Forged Crank, KB Pistons, Edelbrock 6045 Heads,Comp Cam 292H, March Serpentine, RPM AirGap,750HP,100hp Nitrous
A/F Wideband,Tremec TKO 600, 12 bolt,
30 spline Moser Axles, Richmond 3:73's, Hotchkis control arms, swaybars, springs, Wilwood 12" rotors D/S, 4 piston calipers

Last edited by hjdca; Aug 23rd, 19 at 12:25 PM.
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post #32 of 78 (permalink) Old Aug 24th, 19, 12:07 PM
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Re: r134a numbers with stock Condenser & replacement POA

Quote:
Originally Posted by hjdca View Post
ok, so, I talked to Mike over at Original Air (Tampa, FL), the numbers we are looking at for oil are too much for my aftermarket March P412, (Sanden) compressor. What Mike told me is that for a complete system with a similar Sanden compressor they put in a max of 210 cc oil. He said I could put that in, but, no more.

The numbers we are looking at above are used when replacing just one part in the system, ie. if you replace the condenser, then, it is taking 1 oz. of compressor pump oil with it. If you replace the Evaporator, then, it is taking 3 oz. of compressor pump oil with it. The concept is that you have to replace that oil in those components to keep the right amount of oil in the system.

My understanding now is that if you start with a new system, with all new components, then, all you need is a full compressor of oil and no more oil in the other components. As the system gets used, the compressor oil gets distributed in the various components, so, if you replace one, you have to estimate the amount of oil you lose, so, it can be replaced. That is what the chart is showing you in the Chevelle manual.

So, for example, if you system needs 11 oz., that is 11 oz just for the compressor. You put 11 oz into the compressor, button up the system, vacuum and charge. Your compressor is not specified as only needing 6 oz and the other parts needing 5 oz. In fact, the documentation is telling us that this oil that the compressor needs is then distributed during usage and must be replaced when a new part is introduced.

The March MCH-P412 says it comes with 100 cc of Sanden SP-15 Pag oil. So, now I have to decide if I add another 100 cc of SP-15 to the whole system or not add any at all except the 100 cc that is already in the compressor.

Do I have this right ?
Your Denso compressor should maintain a minimum 30-50 percent of the initial compressor fill amount within the compressor after being charged and run. That's to say if the compressor is removed from the system and drained it would have about half of the 3.38 oz oil charge = 1.64 oz.

The Chevelle A/C Components will then retain a total of 5 oz and add the 50% retained value of 1.64oz = about 6.5 oz = 1.92 cc. So the 200 cc or 6.76 oz recommended would be your target.

https://www.denso-am.eu/media/651804...ips-a4_en_.pdf

If you try to run your system with only the initial compressor oil charge of 3.38 oz on the Chevelle system, you'll soon be replacing that compressor as the components will easily hold and starve your compressor of oil.
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post #33 of 78 (permalink) Old Aug 24th, 19, 1:37 PM
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Jason
 
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To much oil in the system is as bad as to little. Oil doesn’t stay in one spot it moves with the refrigerant. If the compressor calls for 11 ounces of oil that’s how much you put into a new system. At any given time that oil will be moving throughout the system.
If you replace a component. You will need to add some oil back in. Best way would be to measure the oil in the removed part. If you guess you could have to much or to little.
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post #34 of 78 (permalink) Old Aug 25th, 19, 1:55 PM Thread Starter
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Harry
 
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Re: r134a numbers with stock Condenser & replacement POA

Quote:
Originally Posted by DUTCH MAX HEADWORK View Post
Your Denso compressor should maintain a minimum 30-50 percent of the initial compressor fill amount within the compressor after being charged and run. That's to say if the compressor is removed from the system and drained it would have about half of the 3.38 oz oil charge = 1.64 oz.

The Chevelle A/C Components will then retain a total of 5 oz and add the 50% retained value of 1.64oz = about 6.5 oz = 1.92 cc. So the 200 cc or 6.76 oz recommended would be your target.

https://www.denso-am.eu/media/651804...ips-a4_en_.pdf

If you try to run your system with only the initial compressor oil charge of 3.38 oz on the Chevelle system, you'll soon be replacing that compressor as the components will easily hold and starve your compressor of oil.
Good point. The 210cc of oil that Original air told me about was for the Sanden 500 series which holds more oil than the sanden 7176 types. This is what Original air uses in their systems. I found this recommendation regarding Sanden 7176 compressor types which comes with 100 cc of oil in the compressor.

6.8 Oil Charge

• Oil Circulation Ratio (OCR) should be between 3.3% and 8% ratio of oil to refrigerant
by weight.

6.8.1 Oil Flow Theory

• Compressor lubrication occurs as the oil which circulates with the refrigerant passes
through the compressor crankcase during operation. The Sanden SD series
compressor achieves optimal durability and cooling performance when oil circulates
through the system at a ratio of 3.3% to 8% oil to refrigerant. Excess oil can act as an
insulator limiting heat transfer in the evaporator and condenser, while too little oil can
negatively affect durability.
• Oil will collect in low pressure cool components (evaporator, accumulator and suction
hose) of the refrigerant loop. For example a long suction hose which sags can collect
several ounces thus reducing overall oil circulation ratio.

6.8.2 Oil Charging

6.8.2.1 Passenger Car, Light Duty Truck Single Evaporator
Refrigerant charges 24oz (680g) to 40oz (1133g)

• 135cc oil TXV systems
• 240 cc oil in orifice tube systems

Less than 56oz or 1600g of refrigerant charge

1. The desired oil charge for the systems with unusually long hoses, such as trucks, tractors,
etc., can be determined based on the total refrigerant charge when less than 56 oz. (1600g)
refrigerant is used.

2. Calculate the desired oil charge as below:

Oil amount (oz.) = [(Refrigerant charge in oz. x 0.06) + 2.2] ÷ 0.9.
Oil amount (cc) = [(Refrigerant charge in grams x 0.06) + 66] ÷ 0.9.

Note: For systems with very long hose runs add an additional 1.0 oz (30cc) of oil for
each 10 foot of hose plus an additional 1.1 oz (33cc) as a safety measure.

Harry
1970 Chevelle SS396 (408), Fathom Blue,
Original Block & Forged Crank, KB Pistons, Edelbrock 6045 Heads,Comp Cam 292H, March Serpentine, RPM AirGap,750HP,100hp Nitrous
A/F Wideband,Tremec TKO 600, 12 bolt,
30 spline Moser Axles, Richmond 3:73's, Hotchkis control arms, swaybars, springs, Wilwood 12" rotors D/S, 4 piston calipers

Last edited by hjdca; Aug 25th, 19 at 2:22 PM.
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post #35 of 78 (permalink) Old Aug 25th, 19, 2:36 PM Thread Starter
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Harry
 
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Posts: 309
Re: r134a numbers with stock Condenser & replacement POA

Quote:
Originally Posted by hjdca View Post
Less than 56oz or 1600g of refrigerant charge

1. The desired oil charge for the systems with unusually long hoses, such as trucks, tractors,
etc., can be determined based on the total refrigerant charge when less than 56 oz. (1600g)
refrigerant is used.

2. Calculate the desired oil charge as below:

Oil amount (oz.) = [(Refrigerant charge in oz. x 0.06) + 2.2] ÷ 0.9.
Oil amount (cc) = [(Refrigerant charge in grams x 0.06) + 66] ÷ 0.9.
So, if I make the calculation based on 48 oz of r134a, I get 5.64 oz or 166 cc of SP-15 pag oil for the whole system -- based on the Sanden peanut compressor - 7176 - March MCH-P412

Harry
1970 Chevelle SS396 (408), Fathom Blue,
Original Block & Forged Crank, KB Pistons, Edelbrock 6045 Heads,Comp Cam 292H, March Serpentine, RPM AirGap,750HP,100hp Nitrous
A/F Wideband,Tremec TKO 600, 12 bolt,
30 spline Moser Axles, Richmond 3:73's, Hotchkis control arms, swaybars, springs, Wilwood 12" rotors D/S, 4 piston calipers
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post #36 of 78 (permalink) Old Sep 4th, 19, 10:46 AM Thread Starter
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Harry
 
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Re: r134a numbers with stock Condenser & replacement POA

All the parts from Original Air (Tampa) arrived. I started the Parallel flow Condenser job last night after work. I am embarrassed to tell you how long it took me to do the swamp. I could do it in less than half the time now... lol. Some recommendations that I followed from this forum -- only remove the front bolts from the bumper, use a jack to lower and raise the bumper, air rachet makes things go much faster, there is a lot of screw turning. The new parallel flow condenser fit perfect. My old lines fit perfect, only some slight bending. I will install the new compressor, new expansion valve and new POA valve today. I will probably install the evaporator on thursday, then hook up the vacuum and charge. Here are some pics from last night.

Disassembly of front end to put in new Parallel Flow Condenser:
















Here are installation pics of the new Parallel Flow Condenser and Dryer:







More to come the next few days as I do the compressor, evaporator, expansion valve.
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Harry
1970 Chevelle SS396 (408), Fathom Blue,
Original Block & Forged Crank, KB Pistons, Edelbrock 6045 Heads,Comp Cam 292H, March Serpentine, RPM AirGap,750HP,100hp Nitrous
A/F Wideband,Tremec TKO 600, 12 bolt,
30 spline Moser Axles, Richmond 3:73's, Hotchkis control arms, swaybars, springs, Wilwood 12" rotors D/S, 4 piston calipers
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post #37 of 78 (permalink) Old Sep 5th, 19, 1:42 AM Thread Starter
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Harry
 
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Re: r134a numbers with stock Condenser & replacement POA

Ok, I replaced the Evaporator, POA, and Expansion Valve tonight. As explained in the forum, I was able to just remove half of the suitcase to remove the Evaporator. I had to take my tall valve cover off to get enough clearance. I used black weather seal gum to seal up the suit case. Note: I had already removed the other half of the suitcase a few years ago to upgrade my fan motor, but, I did not notice all the trash in the other half. Some of my old Evaporator was clogged with dirt and leaves, and there were a lot of leaves in the suitcase. I also jacked up the front of the Chevelle and took the front passenger tire off. I got to some of the bolts from underneath or through the wheel well opening. Here are some pics of the install:

Original POA eliminator and old Evaporator







Some cob webs and leaves in the Evaporator and in the suitcase. I cleaned it out good.





New Evaporator, New R134a POA, and New Expansion Valve Installed:











Tomorrow, I change the Compressor, finish buttoning it up (all the lines have been cleaned and taped), vacuum, and Charge. I will report my results.

Harry
1970 Chevelle SS396 (408), Fathom Blue,
Original Block & Forged Crank, KB Pistons, Edelbrock 6045 Heads,Comp Cam 292H, March Serpentine, RPM AirGap,750HP,100hp Nitrous
A/F Wideband,Tremec TKO 600, 12 bolt,
30 spline Moser Axles, Richmond 3:73's, Hotchkis control arms, swaybars, springs, Wilwood 12" rotors D/S, 4 piston calipers
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post #38 of 78 (permalink) Old Sep 5th, 19, 2:03 AM
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Re: r134a numbers with stock Condenser & replacement POA

Nice work Harry. It always cracks me up when someone says their 50 year old evaporator has never been cleaned but they are sure it's clean. I mean how dirty could it be? They are usually much dirtier than yours was.

Say good riddance to that POA eliminator. Hello cool consistent airflow. It's not cheap to be cool and being cool aint cheap.
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post #39 of 78 (permalink) Old Sep 5th, 19, 2:13 AM Thread Starter
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Harry
 
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Re: r134a numbers with stock Condenser & replacement POA

Quote:
Originally Posted by DUTCH MAX HEADWORK View Post
Nice work Harry. It always cracks me up when someone says their 50 year old evaporator has never been cleaned but they are sure it's clean. I mean how dirty could it be? They are usually much dirtier than yours was.

Say good riddance to that POA eliminator. Hello cool consistent airflow. It's not cheap to be cool and being cool aint cheap.
Thanks. I was expecting my suitcase to be clean. I was shocked how dirty it was, especially since I replaced the blower motor on the other side a few years back and blew some air from my compressor into the other side of the suitcase. It cleaned nothing.... I was fighting an air cond. air flow speed issue back then, and went through all my ducts and bought a new fan motor---- I should have cleaned the other side of the suitcase...lol.
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Harry
1970 Chevelle SS396 (408), Fathom Blue,
Original Block & Forged Crank, KB Pistons, Edelbrock 6045 Heads,Comp Cam 292H, March Serpentine, RPM AirGap,750HP,100hp Nitrous
A/F Wideband,Tremec TKO 600, 12 bolt,
30 spline Moser Axles, Richmond 3:73's, Hotchkis control arms, swaybars, springs, Wilwood 12" rotors D/S, 4 piston calipers
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post #40 of 78 (permalink) Old Sep 5th, 19, 11:36 AM
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Bob
 
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Re: r134a numbers with stock Condenser & replacement POA

Now you know why I ask folks, " Can you guess how many Cu. Ft. of " OUTSIDE DIRTY AIR " has gone through the evaporator in the last 40 / 50 years? Many folks have told my " My evaporator is nice and KLEEN ?"... DAA!
Now your air/flow will be up to specs. A lot of people do not believe me when I tell them " Being KOOL Aint CHEEEEEP".
Also the little rubber pieces ( condenser) with threads on both ends , I bought a dozen or so a while back from Granger. They were around a buck or two each. I have some spares if you need some.
Do you agree with this..... Removing a stock 1970 Chevelle A/C condenser is , Just " So much fun "...................LOL
Can you say " Labor Intensive ".
Bob
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post #41 of 78 (permalink) Old Sep 5th, 19, 11:54 AM Thread Starter
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Harry
 
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Re: r134a numbers with stock Condenser & replacement POA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robinls5 View Post
Now you know why I ask folks, " Can you guess how many Cu. Ft. of " OUTSIDE DIRTY AIR " has gone through the evaporator in the last 40 / 50 years? Many folks have told my " My evaporator is nice and KLEEN ?"... DAA!
Now your air/flow will be up to specs. A lot of people do not believe me when I tell them " Being KOOL Aint CHEEEEEP".
Also the little rubber pieces ( condenser) with threads on both ends , I bought a dozen or so a while back from Granger. They were around a buck or two each. I have some spares if you need some.
Do you agree with this..... Removing a stock 1970 Chevelle A/C condenser is , Just " So much fun "...................LOL
Can you say " Labor Intensive ".
Bob
Yes, the Parallel flow condenser was the most work. I planned to do the whole job in two days and it took me almost a full day to do the condenser and I was beat afterwards.... The suit case was not bad, just the three bottom screws were hard to get to and my headers did not help much trying to get at them from the bottom. There was no way the suit case would come out without taking out my tall valve covers. The POA and expansion valve went smooth.

One new tip -- use 3M adhesive cleaner on your hands when you create the new seal for the suit case half. This keeps the 3M black strip calk from sticking to your hands - you can easily smooth out the calk with your fingers with 3M adhesive cleaner on your hands. This stuff also cleans up the strip calk easily.
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Harry
1970 Chevelle SS396 (408), Fathom Blue,
Original Block & Forged Crank, KB Pistons, Edelbrock 6045 Heads,Comp Cam 292H, March Serpentine, RPM AirGap,750HP,100hp Nitrous
A/F Wideband,Tremec TKO 600, 12 bolt,
30 spline Moser Axles, Richmond 3:73's, Hotchkis control arms, swaybars, springs, Wilwood 12" rotors D/S, 4 piston calipers
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post #42 of 78 (permalink) Old Sep 5th, 19, 6:04 PM Thread Starter
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Harry
 
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Re: r134a numbers with stock Condenser & replacement POA

Ok Guys, new update, the Job is almost done.

The new compressor is installed. I went with Chrome instead of polished aluminum this time. Note: I ended up replacing all my polished aluminum accessories with Chrome the last few years or so. I just like Chrome better.









Good news. The system is holding vacuum. I changed all o-rings to green (found a couple black ones) and use mineral oil to lube them. I will run the pump for a few hours and then fill. It is super hot here... so, it's all just in time.




Harry
1970 Chevelle SS396 (408), Fathom Blue,
Original Block & Forged Crank, KB Pistons, Edelbrock 6045 Heads,Comp Cam 292H, March Serpentine, RPM AirGap,750HP,100hp Nitrous
A/F Wideband,Tremec TKO 600, 12 bolt,
30 spline Moser Axles, Richmond 3:73's, Hotchkis control arms, swaybars, springs, Wilwood 12" rotors D/S, 4 piston calipers
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post #43 of 78 (permalink) Old Sep 5th, 19, 11:01 PM Thread Starter
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Harry
 
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Re: r134a numbers with stock Condenser & replacement POA

Ok, job it done ! After unhooking the vacuum, the low side sucked in a whole can (12 oz) of freon before I started the Chevelle. I was on the second can before I had to start the engine. On the start of the 4th can this is my readings, maybe 42 oz of freon. It was hot out - 95 to 100 deg. , in the garage, no real fan to speak of.



I ended up putting in 52 oz. of R134a. The low side ended up around 57 and the high side 245. I am not sure if I put in too much freon or not enough.

Regarding the air, the high fan is now double the volume. The right side passenger vent blows my girl friends hair back. She estimated double the volume of air. The air is also cold. It is hard to compare the vent temperatures to the previous system because the air volume is so much more. It was about 100 degrees out and we were running around at 57 from the center vent on "high" in city traffic. I did not have time to try the highway. "Normal" setting with cool outside air is now my favorite setting. Plenty of air volume and I get lots of outside air. The air temp still goes up about 4 degrees at idle but my idle is also set low - 850 rpm. I think I may crank up my idle with the air cond. "on" to 950 rpm to keep that compressor going. Overall, I am pretty happy. The cool double air volume really keeps me cool in the car.

Let me know what you guys think about my low side, high side numbers, and the amount of R134a I put in. Thanks.

Harry
1970 Chevelle SS396 (408), Fathom Blue,
Original Block & Forged Crank, KB Pistons, Edelbrock 6045 Heads,Comp Cam 292H, March Serpentine, RPM AirGap,750HP,100hp Nitrous
A/F Wideband,Tremec TKO 600, 12 bolt,
30 spline Moser Axles, Richmond 3:73's, Hotchkis control arms, swaybars, springs, Wilwood 12" rotors D/S, 4 piston calipers
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post #44 of 78 (permalink) Old Sep 5th, 19, 11:50 PM
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Re: r134a numbers with stock Condenser & replacement POA

put a box fan or some other fan in front of the condenser and see if your low side pressure lowers. I think it's a little high, but I am not there in person to witness the conditions.

Leo Paugh
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post #45 of 78 (permalink) Old Sep 6th, 19, 3:25 AM Thread Starter
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Re: r134a numbers with stock Condenser & replacement POA

Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoP View Post
put a box fan or some other fan in front of the condenser and see if your low side pressure lowers. I think it's a little high, but I am not there in person to witness the conditions.
Thanks! You were correct. I removed some freon, and my low side went down, and my high side went up. I took some fans from the house and aimed them at the condenser. After some freon extraction, I got 43 low side, 220 high side. It was between 80 and 85 degrees out. I went for a ride and got 37 degrees out of the center vent on "high" with "max" setting ! I was in 4th gear (manual) at 2K rpm. I think on the fwy it will go lower. Super excited about the 30's with so much air volume. I was actually cold in the Chevelle. lol. Thanks so much to you and this forum - Al, Bob, Jason, Leo.





Harry
1970 Chevelle SS396 (408), Fathom Blue,
Original Block & Forged Crank, KB Pistons, Edelbrock 6045 Heads,Comp Cam 292H, March Serpentine, RPM AirGap,750HP,100hp Nitrous
A/F Wideband,Tremec TKO 600, 12 bolt,
30 spline Moser Axles, Richmond 3:73's, Hotchkis control arms, swaybars, springs, Wilwood 12" rotors D/S, 4 piston calipers
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