Resistor size for a bulb eliminator on a 10SI #1 terminal - Page 2 - Chevelle Tech
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post #16 of 30 (permalink) Old Jun 13th, 15, 8:19 PM
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Re: Resistor size for a bulb eliminator on a 10SI #1 terminal

Mark,

Your plan will work. You can use the diode with the resistor and this will limit the excitation current flow to roughly less then 1 amp.

I recommend this style of resistor from Mouser:

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/...2CmHX155q9M%3d

It will allow you to mechanically mount it to the dash frame to help dissipate heat. It will get warm if the key is on and the engine isn't running or the engine stalls out or it's tied into the ACC position and you like to use that key position to listen to the radio.

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post #17 of 30 (permalink) Old Jun 14th, 15, 11:39 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Resistor size for a bulb eliminator on a 10SI #1 terminal

Thanks everyone for your input!

I am going to use a 12 Volt switched ignition feed connected to a 10 Ohm 50 Watt with the 1n5402 Diode all in series with the #1 terminal.

Thanks Joe!

Mark

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post #18 of 30 (permalink) Old Jun 14th, 15, 7:39 PM
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Re: Resistor size for a bulb eliminator on a 10SI #1 terminal

DIODE, manufacturer: NTE, p/n 116, have only used about 400+ of them over the years on SI alternators (that do not need them, nor a light to work just fine in the first place to work correctly), simple. With the NTE 116's, I NEVER HAD A PROBLEM, NEVER BURNED A CAR TO THE GROUND USING ONE, EITHER.
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post #19 of 30 (permalink) Old Jun 15th, 15, 5:48 AM
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Re: Resistor size for a bulb eliminator on a 10SI #1 terminal

now you guys have gone and done it. I sure the 10R 2W resistors that have been keeping my Chevelle and 57 truck from running on for the last 10-15 years will get wind of this and explode, completely destroying the front half of both vehicles. It's all your fault.

Hey, and I picked those out by the analytically and scientifically rigorous process of finding the first one on top of the pile of junk in the used electrical parts box and copying it for the second vehicle later. This is just awful.

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post #20 of 30 (permalink) Old Jun 15th, 15, 10:46 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Resistor size for a bulb eliminator on a 10SI #1 terminal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Mobley View Post
now you guys have gone and done it. I sure the 10R 2W resistors that have been keeping my Chevelle and 57 truck from running on for the last 10-15 years will get wind of this and explode, completely destroying the front half of both vehicles. It's all your fault.
Consider yourself warned! Tick...Tick...Tick...

Have you ever checked to see how warm the resistor gets?

Dave, the Delco drawing on bikeron's post where a 5A diode, 10 Ohm 30w resistor, or a 3 candle power bulb was recommended got me confused/concerned. There is large current there at some time or they wouldn't have used those components. There may not be after initial startup, but what the heck, overkill doesn't cost a lot in this instance.

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post #21 of 30 (permalink) Old Jun 15th, 15, 12:56 PM
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Re: Resistor size for a bulb eliminator on a 10SI #1 terminal

All,

This is a complex issue. I'll try to explain.

The Delco drawing is based on the use of older alternators and is a "universal" solution for older alternators with first and second generation control systems (mechanical then electronic) where the excitation current for the alternator comes through the lamp. The wattage of the resistor will be overkill for many applications but will work for all. For most applications it will not get very hot if you use a 10W resistor.

You can go through the math to figure out the exact dissipation, it is amps squared times ohms, e.g. 2A current for excitation then 2x2 = 4, then 4 times 10 ohms is 40 watts.

Operation is a little more complex than this as the excitation current is regulated by pulse width modulation in the control system so the current will never be as high as some meters (peak responding) might read thus 40W would be very safe.

Here is what third generation controls look like:


Note that in the later regulators (for the explanation below refer the the figure above) that the lamp does not have to support the excitation current of the alternator but is just a simple indicator driven by a small transistor. All excitation current comes only from the MOSFET transistor, Q1.

This is why in many applications, as David Ray mentions, you can use just a diode, a small resistor, like in the 510 ohm example in the diagram, or just a wire and as long as R6, the 20K resistor sees that the ignition is turned on when you start the car, it will all work fine. This is a case where if you didn't have the 510 ohm resistor and/or lamp you might blow up the small transistor, the MPSA13.

In other (later) implementations of this regulator an additional resistor was added in between the "I" terminal and the junction of R9, R6 and R7 so that if no resistor were used nothing bad would happen to the control circuit.

I would say that any regulator manufactured today will have protections such that you could skip the lamp/resistor altogether and the alternator would work properly. If however the alternator was of an older vintage you might cause damage to the regulator.

Rather than try to figure out which control system you have if you put the resistor in you are always safe as 10 ohms would not compromise the operation of any of the modern regulators.

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Last edited by bikeron; Jun 15th, 15 at 3:46 PM.
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post #22 of 30 (permalink) Old Jun 15th, 15, 2:30 PM
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Re: Resistor size for a bulb eliminator on a 10SI #1 terminal

so my 10r 2W inline resistor is an accident waiting (patiently) to happen or is really OK?

how would one one of those little parking light bulbs I used rate out as a resistor? I think they're a 194? They worked to solve the run on issue too. The way I understood it almost anything would work to stop the feedback current that causes run-on.

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post #23 of 30 (permalink) Old Jun 15th, 15, 3:45 PM
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Re: Resistor size for a bulb eliminator on a 10SI #1 terminal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Mobley View Post
so my 10r 2W inline resistor is an accident waiting (patiently) to happen or is really OK?

how would one one of those little parking light bulbs I used rate out as a resistor? I think they're a 194? They worked to solve the run on issue too. The way I understood it almost anything would work to stop the feedback current that causes run-on.
If your system has worked for a while then I'm sure it's fine. If the resistor has changed color (indication of burning) you might have a problem.

A bulb will work, a resistor will work but a diode is best.

The bulb and the resistor limit the current causing enough voltage drop that the ignition can't work.

The diode however prevents any current from flowing (well, OK, there is leakage current but a 1N5404 is rated at something around 0.1 micro (that 1 x 10-6, or 0.000001 amps at less than 20% of it's rated voltage of 400V).

Here is a good datasheet:
http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/149/1N5404-193709.pdf

Bottom line is a diode works best.

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post #24 of 30 (permalink) Old Jun 15th, 15, 8:27 PM
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Re: Resistor size for a bulb eliminator on a 10SI #1 terminal

Actually, this isn't a complex issue at all. (No disrespect to Ron).

The issue is wiring a SI alternator, so the regulator is straight-forward and takes queues from it's predecessor, the DN line utilizing external regulation. The queues being actually providing a path from switched power directly into the rotor windings.

As I stated in my earlier post, with the SI configuration, the #1 (aka dummy light aka excitation terminal) actually provides current for not only the activation of the electronics in the regulator but also becomes to the initial source of current for the field (rotor).

One side (one slip ring) of the rotor is directly connected to the #1 terminal. Electrical current has a path into the regulator as well as the rotor. If the regulator is turned on by sufficient voltage to bias the circuitry "ON", then the other side of the rotor now sees a ground through the collector of the main switching transistor in the regulator. Thus a few amps will be drawn thru the #1 terminal as the rotor now has a complete current path of B+ to ground.

This is why the Delco Remy document posted by Ron a long time ago indicates to use a 5 amp rated diode if there is no other means of current limiting in place. The rotors in the SI models can easily draw roughly 4 amps at over 12 volts.

Don't confuse the SI with the CS regulator system. The CS is light-years beyond both the DN and later SI systems.

Again, as I stated earlier, with the CS configuration, the excitation line is only used to activate the regulator as well as provide feed back (by pulling the line low for an indicator or pull-up resistor in a body control module in modern vehicles) for a non-charging state. Because you are "signaling" a microprocessor, you can use high value resistors such as 470, 510 ohms etc. The CS regulation system sources the larger current for the field from the B+ connection (direct battery voltage) at the alternator, it doesn't draw significant current of any kind thru the "L" or "I" terminal.

Once the "excitation" line is turned "on" for the CS, then Pulse Width Modulation is incorporated to provide control for the rotor. The "load carrier" having to deal with the current through the field is shown as "TR1" transistor.



There's no debating the functionality of the 3 different types of systems we discuss--the DN, the SI and the CS.

What is up for debate is the best way to provide the turn-on for the regulators.

Since this discussion is/was? about the SI series, as I stated the original poster's plans are fine. The diode will absolutely prevent any run-on condition even if his excitation line is tied directly to the IGN1 terminal of the key switch--which is directly linked the ignition system. The resistor will aid in limiting current.

Limiting current is good, as long as you don't limit so much that you risk not providing enough to initiate excitation when the vehicle is first started (which of course is to ENSURE charging unlike my least favorite alternators--the 1-wire alternators).

Why limit current at all?

Using a diode is quick and simple, but it provides no current limiting other then it's inheirant forward voltage drop. Do you honestly want a battery drain of a few amps when using the ACC position of the key switch if you tie into the accessory circuit like GM did on pre-1972 Chevelles? Do you honestly want a battery drain of a few amps when the key is on and the engine stalls out OR you/your mechanic has the key "on" with no engine running while performing testing/troubleshooting? Do you honestly want this drain present during engine cranking (if you tie into IGN1 circuitry) when all extraneous loads should really be shed to aid in starting? These examples are why it is good to provide resistance for current limiting.

Resistance wire was used in the original GM designs employing the DN and SI systems. The length of this wire provided the power rating as the length helped dissipate heat. When we are talking about SI's in particular (which used a more current hungry rotor then the DN's), you soon find out why you need appropriate wattage resistor ratings.

Anyone who doubts me, you can do a simple experiment. Put an ammeter in-line directly from a non current limited battery connection (like the main lug rear of the alternator) and read what the current is when you connect into the #1 terminal.

(Leave the #2 sense line still connected to battery voltage, but have the original #1 wire from the harness disconnected).

Or we can have Tom Mobley try something.

Turn your key "ON" without starting the engine. Grasp the 2 watt resistor in your bare hand and leave the key on for a minute. On second thought, you probably don't want to do that

As far as using 1 amp diodes in the excitation circuit, it is entirely possible, based on what current limiting means are already in place.

There's no "givens" for anyone unless we know the whole picture of how you are setting up the circuit. This is especially true when gearheads install CS alternators in old cars as it can get tricky to properly set things based on how GM wired these cars--with resistance wire from the ACC circuitry alone, some with resistance wire from the ACC circuitry with a dummy light paralleled, but tied into the IGN circuitry (for dummy light cars) and later resistance wire tied into the IGN3 circuit which is "ON" when the key is "ON", not in accessory, but is shed during cranking.


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post #25 of 30 (permalink) Old Jun 15th, 15, 8:41 PM
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Re: Resistor size for a bulb eliminator on a 10SI #1 terminal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coppertop View Post
Actually, this isn't a complex issue at all. (No disrespect to Ron).

The issue is wiring a SI alternator, so the regulator is straight-forward and takes queues from it's predecessor, the DN line utilizing external regulation. The queues being actually providing a path from switched power directly into the rotor windings.

As I stated in my earlier post, with the SI configuration, the #1 (aka dummy light aka excitation terminal) actually provides current for not only the activation of the electronics in the regulator but also becomes to the initial source of current for the field (rotor).

One side (one slip ring) of the rotor is directly connected to the #1 terminal. Electrical current has a path into the regulator as well as the rotor. If the regulator is turned on by sufficient voltage to bias the circuitry "ON", then the other side of the rotor now sees a ground through the collector of the main switching transistor in the regulator. Thus a few amps will be drawn thru the #1 terminal as the rotor now has a complete current path of B+ to ground.

This is why the Delco Remy document posted by Ron a long time ago indicates to use a 5 amp rated diode if there is no other means of current limiting in place. The rotors in the SI models can easily draw roughly 4 amps at over 12 volts.

Don't confuse the SI with the CS regulator system. The CS is light-years beyond both the DN and later SI systems.

Again, as I stated earlier, with the CS configuration, the excitation line is only used to activate the regulator as well as provide feed back (by pulling the line low for an indicator or pull-up resistor in a body control module in modern vehicles) for a non-charging state. Because you are "signaling" a microprocessor, you can use high value resistors such as 470, 510 ohms etc. The CS regulation system sources the larger current for the field from the B+ connection (direct battery voltage) at the alternator, it doesn't draw significant current of any kind thru the "L" or "I" terminal.

Once the "excitation" line is turned "on" for the CS, then Pulse Width Modulation is incorporated to provide control for the rotor. The "load carrier" having to deal with the current through the field is shown as "TR1" transistor.



There's no debating the functionality of the 3 different types of systems we discuss--the DN, the SI and the CS.

What is up for debate is the best way to provide the turn-on for the regulators.

Since this discussion is/was? about the SI series, as I stated the original poster's plans are fine. The diode will absolutely prevent any run-on condition even if his excitation line is tied directly to the IGN1 terminal of the key switch--which is directly linked the ignition system. The resistor will aid in limiting current.

Limiting current is good, as long as you don't limit so much that you risk not providing enough to initiate excitation when the vehicle is first started (which of course is to ENSURE charging unlike my least favorite alternators--the 1-wire alternators).

Why limit current at all?

Using a diode is quick and simple, but it provides no current limiting other then it's inheirant forward voltage drop. Do you honestly want a battery drain of a few amps when using the ACC position of the key switch if you tie into the accessory circuit like GM did on pre-1972 Chevelles? Do you honestly want a battery drain of a few amps when the key is on and the engine stalls out OR you/your mechanic has the key "on" with no engine running while performing testing/troubleshooting? Do you honestly want this drain present during engine cranking (if you tie into IGN1 circuitry) when all extraneous loads should really be shed to aid in starting? These examples are why it is good to provide resistance for current limiting.

Resistance wire was used in the original GM designs employing the DN and SI systems. The length of this wire provided the power rating as the length helped dissipate heat. When we are talking about SI's in particular (which used a more current hungry rotor then the DN's), you soon find out why you need appropriate wattage resistor ratings.

Anyone who doubts me, you can do a simple experiment. Put an ammeter in-line directly from a non current limited battery connection (like the main lug rear of the alternator) and read what the current is when you connect into the #1 terminal.

(Leave the #2 sense line still connected to battery voltage, but have the original #1 wire from the harness disconnected).

Or we can have Tom Mobley try something.

Turn your key "ON" without starting the engine. Grasp the 2 watt resistor in your bare hand and leave the key on for a minute. On second thought, you probably don't want to do that

As far as using 1 amp diodes in the excitation circuit, it is entirely possible, based on what current limiting means are already in place.

There's no "givens" for anyone unless we know the whole picture of how you are setting up the circuit. This is especially true when gearheads install CS alternators in old cars as it can get tricky to properly set things based on how GM wired these cars--with resistance wire from the ACC circuitry alone, some with resistance wire from the ACC circuitry with a dummy light paralleled, but tied into the IGN circuitry (for dummy light cars) and later resistance wire tied into the IGN3 circuit which is "ON" when the key is "ON", not in accessory, but is shed during cranking.

That's not complex?

I agree that there no "givens". That was the point i was trying to make, it depends on the control system that's in place.

It might be that Tom could hold that 2W resistor in his had because the additional limiting resistor is already in the regulator in his alternator. That's why it is a good thing to look to see if it changes color. The tells you it got too hot and he has an older regulator. Most if not all of the regulator designs I have seen in the last 5 years, even in the rebuild markets have been made much more fool proof than before. A newly rebuilt SI system alternator will most likely have a new generation regulator.

If your trying to do an original restoration? That's when it gets tricky.

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post #26 of 30 (permalink) Old Jun 15th, 15, 8:46 PM
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Re: Resistor size for a bulb eliminator on a 10SI #1 terminal

But Ron, even if the regulator is updated, the physical connection of the rotor would not change. SI's are still configured the same, mechanically/electrically. I have a brand spanking new 12SI rebuilt on the bench right now. Over 4 amps drawn thru the #1 terminal when no external current limiting in place with a bench supply set to 13.5 volts. That was the point I was trying to make. Unless I'm missing what you are saying? Could be. Been a long day

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post #27 of 30 (permalink) Old Jun 15th, 15, 10:03 PM
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Re: Resistor size for a bulb eliminator on a 10SI #1 terminal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coppertop View Post
But Ron, even if the regulator is updated, the physical connection of the rotor would not change. SI's are still configured the same, mechanically/electrically. I have a brand spanking new 12SI rebuilt on the bench right now. Over 4 amps drawn thru the #1 terminal when no external current limiting in place with a bench supply set to 13.5 volts. That was the point I was trying to make. Unless I'm missing what you are saying? Could be. Been a long day
Yes, you would get full excitation current on the bench at 4A as the alternator has no output so the regulator goes to 100% DF on the field coil. In normal operating conditions though this would rarely happen.

Once the alternator has some RPM up it starts to output voltage that is fed back to the control circuit on terminal 2. The PWM function then begins to regulate the output of the alternator to the 14.2 to 14.4V we all love to see. Regulation occurs by limiting the amount of time that voltage is applied to the field winding (rotor). Since this is a winding on a magnetic core current builds in the winding as the field changes in the rotor and its sinusoidal. Thus you wind up drawing only the amount of current that you need through the #1 terminal to keep the output at 14.2V. a lot less than the 4A you measure on the bench as a static DC measure.

In Toms case if the car runs fine on 20% of the alternators output the resistor will not be hot.

Here is a CS control system:


Notice that you could just run a wire to the I terminal as there is a series resistor inside. This is what I was trying to show about some of the newer replacement regulators; they have a resistor inside, or use a resistor (provided it was a reasonable value).

The best explanation of all of this is here:
http://oljeep.com/gw/alt/edge_Altern...html#Section_2

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post #28 of 30 (permalink) Old Jun 15th, 15, 10:53 PM
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Re: Resistor size for a bulb eliminator on a 10SI #1 terminal

I agree with you Ron, the resistor becomes a non-issue during normal operation (as far as power dissipation goes). I stress about the wattage in the postings as one should engineer for situations that aren't normal, such as the stalled engine example. I think we still are comparing apples and oranges though..what I was trying to get at is I thought both Tom Mobley and the original poster are running SI alternators. I've never encountered a drop in SI alternator regulator that uses PWM like its big brother the CS. The SI would only be using the symplistic switching transistor design and voltage divider/thermistor regulation circuit. They may exist, but the cost would be prohibitive to the average rebuilder looking for a quick drop in replacement.

Anyhoo, excellent discussion as always. Time to hit the hay.

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post #29 of 30 (permalink) Old Mar 10th, 16, 10:29 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Resistor size for a bulb eliminator on a 10SI #1 terminal

Well, that didn't last long...the alternator stopped working today! Boy, I'm getting NO breaks! I guess I'll take it apart tomorrow.

DB Electrical 140 A. 10SI.

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post #30 of 30 (permalink) Old Mar 15th, 16, 1:06 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Resistor size for a bulb eliminator on a 10SI #1 terminal

I found out what went wrong with the charging system. The lead of the 10 ohm ceramic resistor, that I used, broke off. I really thought that I had a good strain relief on the lead, but I guess not. I mounted the components to the back of the dash, so the new components will be mounted where I can get to them. Silly me...

today I actually wired-in a red clearance light (194 bulb 2cp) to the #1 terminal and an ignition source, and it works fine. I ordered the 10 ohm 50W resistor that Joe posted earlier, so I'll install that parallel to the light when it comes. I will also install a diode in series with that resistor with the cathode towards the #1 terminal. That should do it. If not, I'm sure you'll let me know.

Thanks for all of your past help with understanding this stuff, it really helps me out.

Mark

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