Spring retainer and seat damage - Chevelle Tech
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post #1 of 15 (permalink) Old May 3rd, 20, 6:09 PM Thread Starter
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Jim
 
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Spring retainer and seat damage

Hey Guys! Long time no see. It’s been a long 5 year knock down drag our divorce but the velle and I made it through!
The short of it. I have a 468 BBC with small solid roller and cast iron closed chamber heads. Has about a hundred miles on the brand new build before she sat for 5 years. Now i want to get her running. I figured it would be wise to change the valve springs since they were left compressed for years. I have dual springs with a damper. So I popped the springs off #1 and this is what I got. The blues circles are damage from the damper, and the red circle is wear damage from the inner spring.
Not sure what is happening. Binding? I thought the clearances looked good.
Thanks!
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Jim M.
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post #2 of 15 (permalink) Old May 3rd, 20, 7:04 PM
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Mr Bill
 
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Re: Spring retainer and seat damage

Looks like something is not fitting correctly. The marks on the bottom shim might just be due to an inexpensive, unhardened shim. Might be the same on the retainers ? How do the springs fit the retainer ? What keeps the bottom of the spring from moving around ? Have you checked to see how close to coil bind the setup is at full lift ?
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post #3 of 15 (permalink) Old May 3rd, 20, 8:49 PM Thread Starter
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Jim
 
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Hey Bill. Not sure about the the shims. The springs are comp’s #939 and their #739 titanium retainers. Supposed to be a good match up. Is there something I am supposed do to keep the spring from moving?
I’ll put a feeler gauge in there to get clearances.
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Jim M.
'67 Velle
468
th-400
12-bolt,4.10s
My Chevy...

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post #4 of 15 (permalink) Old May 3rd, 20, 8:56 PM
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Re: Spring retainer and seat damage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pro67Chevy View Post
Hey Guys! Long time no see. Its been a long 5 year knock down drag our divorce but the velle and I made it through!
The short of it. I have a 468 BBC with small solid roller and cast iron closed chamber heads. Has about a hundred miles on the brand new build before she sat for 5 years. Now i want to get her running. I figured it would be wise to change the valve springs since they were left compressed for years. I have dual springs with a damper. So I popped the springs off #1 and this is what I got. The blues circles are damage from the damper, and the red circle is wear damage from the inner spring.
Not sure what is happening. Binding? I thought the clearances looked good.
Thanks!
I just went through that last year. Saw some glittery looking flakes in the heads, took them out and had them analyzed and the chips were indeed titanium. What happened is the spring dampener spring dug into the retainer and also can dig into the shim and cause all kinds of nasty problems. I went back to steel retainers for now. I would recheck and make sure you're not getting coil bind, should be at least .080 total minimum of all the space between the coils.


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post #5 of 15 (permalink) Old May 3rd, 20, 9:47 PM
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Mr Bill
 
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Re: Spring retainer and seat damage

Jim,
There needs to be a spring locator at the bottom unless the springs fit very closely into the spring pocket in the head. In the catalog they do not show a Titanium retainer for that spring. It says N/A

Looking at the dimensions for your spring and retainer the retainer is definitely too tight a fit on the inner spring and not really correct for the outer either. That probably explains why the retainer is scarred up on the center part. The damper should never really be in a bind to where it is being shoved against the retainer or the spring seat that much so I winder if that is not really the right spring to be using either. You need to do some measuring to be sure.
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Bill Koustenis
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post #6 of 15 (permalink) Old May 4th, 20, 7:47 AM
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Re: Spring retainer and seat damage

How small of a cam, and what is the installed height? I agree with Bill, the retainer and the spring have to be made for each other. This is why I always get the recommended retainer from the spring vendor. And if they don't sell one for it, that could be a problem with fitting.

Ray

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post #7 of 15 (permalink) Old May 4th, 20, 9:14 AM
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Re: Spring retainer and seat damage

I would "toss" those Titanium retainers and get over to some "tool-steel", the Titaniums don't work well with springs that have "dampeners"!

We now only use Comps "tool-steels" on all our builds.

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Get some "good" spring seat locators as well!

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post #8 of 15 (permalink) Old May 5th, 20, 12:28 PM Thread Starter
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Jim
 
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Re: Spring retainer and seat damage

Hey guys. Thanks for the replies. I went digging in Comp's catalog and I see where I may have gone wrong.

On the retainers page, it says that the titanium part#732 is a replacement for the steel part #741. BUT, They have a different size inner diameters .710" vs. .690". My spring's I.D. is .697". So, from what I can tell there is no "titanium" or "tool steel" retainer equal to the standard retainer #741.

My concern, if I use the the standard steel retainer, is it up to the task for my cam/spring combo?

SR Cam #11-000-8 specs:
I: 236 w/.640"
E: 242 w/.647"
Sep 108 deg

Thanks!

Jim M.
'67 Velle
468
th-400
12-bolt,4.10s
My Chevy...

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post #9 of 15 (permalink) Old May 5th, 20, 12:37 PM
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Claude
 
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Re: Spring retainer and seat damage

It looks as if the outer spring's diameter is a bit too small and does not seat right in the retainer... but I might be completely wrong.

Claude.

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post #10 of 15 (permalink) Old May 5th, 20, 1:06 PM
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Marcus
 
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Re: Spring retainer and seat damage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pro67Chevy View Post
Hey guys. Thanks for the replies. I went digging in Comp's catalog and I see where I may have gone wrong.

On the retainers page, it says that the titanium part#732 is a replacement for the steel part #741. BUT, They have a different size inner diameters .710" vs. .690". My spring's I.D. is .697". So, from what I can tell there is no "titanium" or "tool steel" retainer equal to the standard retainer #741.

My concern, if I use the the standard steel retainer, is it up to the task for my cam/spring combo?

SR Cam #11-000-8 specs:
I: 236 w/.640"
E: 242 w/.647"
Sep 108 deg

Thanks!
https://www.summitracing.com/int/par...illocation=int

Tool steel.

Close to 741-16 and may work.

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post #11 of 15 (permalink) Old May 5th, 20, 1:15 PM
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Re: Spring retainer and seat damage

Not sure who chose all your parts for the build but they aren't the best choices for a solid roller platform. Maybe it's just too late but I would reconsider a few things??

That's a "cast-core" cam, not good on any perf (solid-roller) application, the springs are entirely wrong which makes the retainers harder to find? You need to pay very close attention to the spring-rates when using that type (-8) cam core??

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. We are a Comp dealer and I don't see anywhere in their catalog a recommendation for that spring number on the BBC platform. Don't believe I've ever even sold a set of those 939 springs?

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post #12 of 15 (permalink) Old May 5th, 20, 2:48 PM
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Mr Bill
 
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Re: Spring retainer and seat damage

Jim,
It looks like they are calling for a 953 spring for the -8 cams in that lift range. Your 939 is pretty close in specs so I think it will probably be ok for what you are doing. Its actually a little lighter pressure.

As far as steel retainers go they will be fine. I use them on 502 Mercruiser engines with about the same lift and spring pressures and they live just fine running 5000 rpm all day.

Bill Koustenis
Advanced Automotive Machine
Waldorf Md


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post #13 of 15 (permalink) Old May 5th, 20, 4:48 PM Thread Starter
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Jim
 
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Re: Spring retainer and seat damage

Marcus -
thanks! I will check those out!

Gary -
totally correct on the cast core. I ordered the cam 20 years ago and honestly, I don't remember if they just used the wrong core or I just didn't know any better at the time. But it's in there for now and only has about 100-200 miles on it. Not sure if/when I will switch it out.
I attached a copy of the sheet that came with the cam. (yes Nov 2000 haha). And you can see the spring they recommended at the bottom.

Bill - thanks, I'll take a look at the 953s
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Jim M.
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post #14 of 15 (permalink) Old May 5th, 20, 7:17 PM
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Re: Spring retainer and seat damage

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pro67Chevy View Post

Bill - thanks, I'll take a look at the 953s

Jim,
Personally I think your 939's will be fine for what you are doing. Just get the retainer and spring seat situation squared away. Too bad you aren't a little closer I would help you out.

Bill Koustenis
Advanced Automotive Machine
Waldorf Md


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post #15 of 15 (permalink) Old May 5th, 20, 8:53 PM Thread Starter
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Jim
 
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Thanks Bill. I agree.

Yeah, you’re a tad out of reach, thanks for the offer. 👍🏼

Jim M.
'67 Velle
468
th-400
12-bolt,4.10s
My Chevy...

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