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post #46 of 89 (permalink) Old Sep 18th, 19, 1:39 AM
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Mike
 
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re: ZZ4 upgrades?

Dave Ray, I guess my question was poorly worded. What Iím asking is are you recommending 12* initial and 34* at 3000 rpm? The reason I ask is because I can set these parameters in my EFI and thought Iíd use your experience to try new settings. Iím currently set at 10* initial, ramping up from 900 rpm to 34* at 2800 rpm, using manifold vacuum of 10*. Seems to run ok, but Iím thinking the total timing is coming to early. Comments welcome.

Mike

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post #47 of 89 (permalink) Old Sep 18th, 19, 12:41 PM
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re: ZZ4 upgrades?

Factory ZZ4 timing settings are as follows, INITIAL, 11, mechanical, 22, total of 33. Vacuum advance is 69150, no limiter.

The engine being 10.25:1 c/r, I usually add a degree to the INITIAL, for 12, + 22 = 34, and limit the vacuum advance to 8, or 10 degrees on full manifold vacuum, which gives IDLE of 20/22 degrees. The only other function needed is to speed up the mechanical advance, it is far too slow, to compensate for the ported mess of a vacuum advance.

This isn't Secret Sam stuff, it is really easy to do, stop for the vacuum advance degrees, source from full manifold vacuum, softer mechanical advance springs, done.
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post #48 of 89 (permalink) Old Sep 19th, 19, 11:24 AM Thread Starter
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re: ZZ4 upgrades?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Ray View Post
Factory ZZ4 timing settings are as follows, INITIAL, 11, mechanical, 22, total of 33. Vacuum advance is 69150, no limiter.

The engine being 10.25:1 c/r, I usually add a degree to the INITIAL, for 12, + 22 = 34, and limit the vacuum advance to 8, or 10 degrees on full manifold vacuum, which gives IDLE of 20/22 degrees. The only other function needed is to speed up the mechanical advance, it is far too slow, to compensate for the ported mess of a vacuum advance.

This isn't Secret Sam stuff, it is really easy to do, stop for the vacuum advance degrees, source from full manifold vacuum, softer mechanical advance springs, done.
So 12 initial and 34 total at 3000rpm?

If it's not broken, let's fix it till it is.
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post #49 of 89 (permalink) Old Sep 22nd, 19, 12:23 AM
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re: ZZ4 upgrades?

I originally had the ZZ4 cam in my OEM roller small block. I pulled that cam out and put in the voodoo cam in my signature. I was fortunate that Lunati made a version of the cam for OEM roller blocks. See sig. for specs. Its similar to the GM hot cam except its lift is specified with 1.5 rockers.

I'm really happy with this cam. Much more mid and upper range power compared to the ZZ4 cam with no loss in the bottom end and no problem running power brakes.

72, SB 385, Voodoo roller, 219/227; .515/,530 lift; AFR 180cc Eliminators, RPM Air-Gap, 770 Avenger, 12 bolt 3.42's, Eaton Posi, Pypes 2 1/2" X-pipe system w/Race Pro's
Vehicle weight: 3390 lbs
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post #50 of 89 (permalink) Old Oct 13th, 19, 9:41 PM Thread Starter
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re: ZZ4 upgrades?

I am debating on putting new heads, cam and intake on my zz4 or just building my own 396 or 454. What are opinions on this with a price stance?

If it's not broken, let's fix it till it is.
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post #51 of 89 (permalink) Old Oct 13th, 19, 10:48 PM
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re: ZZ4 upgrades?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hotrodder000 View Post
I am debating on putting new heads, cam and intake on my zz4 or just building my own 396 or 454. What are opinions on this with a price stance?
It might be worth starting a new thread. Even though itís a new question, the original thread has played itself out and wonít generate many views going forward.

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post #52 of 89 (permalink) Old Oct 15th, 19, 11:31 AM
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re: ZZ4 upgrades?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hotrodder000 View Post
I am debating on putting new heads, cam and intake on my zz4 or just building my own 396 or 454. What are opinions on this with a price stance?
I have to ask Mike. What are you trying to accomplish withe the car? Where do you see yourself with the car in 3 to 5 years.

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post #53 of 89 (permalink) Old Oct 15th, 19, 12:39 PM
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re: ZZ4 upgrades?

If its that far off your expectations sell it and do the big block
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post #54 of 89 (permalink) Old Oct 15th, 19, 1:03 PM
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re: ZZ4 upgrades?

I have a Fastburn 385 in my 66 (so basically a zz4 with vortec heads). It was in my car already when I bought it, and I had a lot of the same gripes that you do. I spent a lot of time playing with the carb and swapping pump cams and power valves and what not...this helped tremendously with some drivability issues that I was fighting with, but what woke it up the most was recurving the distributor to the specs Aaron shared earlier in this thread.

To this day, I honestly still don't know which cam mine has. I suspect this would be the next place for me to look if I wanted to wake it up any more, but at this point I have it running good enough that I've decided to stop throwing more money into it. I do still wish it put more power to the wheels in that lower/mid RMP range, but I know long term I want to swap in a big block so I've decided for this to be my stopping point for upgrades to this motor. It isn't the fastest car on the street but it isn't the slowest either, and it's still plenty fun to drive for now. It can spin the tires if you ask it to, but you aren't going to break the tires loose by accident just driving around like a normal person. Still pulls hard as hell if you wind it up past 4000 rpm's, but driving it around town I just don't find myself above that RPM range all that often.

One unrelated "upgrade" I gave my car this year was electronically controlled exhaust cutouts just after the headers. I do feel like it pulls harder at lower RPM's with the cutouts open, but I don't have any dyno numbers or track times to back that up. Not sure if that means my exhaust is too restrictive or if this motor just likes to breathe freely or what, but thought I'd mention it if you think your exhaust could be holding it back.

Also FWIW I haven't touched the distributor or the carb in 3 or so years and it's been incredibly reliable for me during that time.

So yeah, I think you could benefit from giving yours a full tune up per the advice that's already been given in this thread. This is the least cost/most benefit so it's the obvious place to start.

'66 SS Clone
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post #55 of 89 (permalink) Old Oct 15th, 19, 10:43 PM Thread Starter
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re: ZZ4 upgrades?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron View Post
I have to ask Mike. What are you trying to accomplish withe the car? Where do you see yourself with the car in 3 to 5 years.

Well, I want it to have it's best value with decent power. I am so disappointed with the ZZ4. It gets off the line slower than my 2003 Chevy Avalanche with the 5.3L. Every time I go to a car show, chevelles have a 396 and 454 and I get asked everywhere if mine has one or the other. All I can tell them is its a crappy slow 350. So at this point, I want better power but at what cost? Try to figure this small block out or just start putting a big block while cruising as is. Dont want to waste money on this zz4 if its not going to provide results. Trying to find comparisons on stock zz4 driveability but hard to match.

If it's not broken, let's fix it till it is.
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post #56 of 89 (permalink) Old Oct 15th, 19, 10:47 PM Thread Starter
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re: ZZ4 upgrades?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bry66 View Post
I have a Fastburn 385 in my 66 (so basically a zz4 with vortec heads). It was in my car already when I bought it, and I had a lot of the same gripes that you do. I spent a lot of time playing with the carb and swapping pump cams and power valves and what not...this helped tremendously with some drivability issues that I was fighting with, but what woke it up the most was recurving the distributor to the specs Aaron shared earlier in this thread.

To this day, I honestly still don't know which cam mine has. I suspect this would be the next place for me to look if I wanted to wake it up any more, but at this point I have it running good enough that I've decided to stop throwing more money into it. I do still wish it put more power to the wheels in that lower/mid RMP range, but I know long term I want to swap in a big block so I've decided for this to be my stopping point for upgrades to this motor. It isn't the fastest car on the street but it isn't the slowest either, and it's still plenty fun to drive for now. It can spin the tires if you ask it to, but you aren't going to break the tires loose by accident just driving around like a normal person. Still pulls hard as hell if you wind it up past 4000 rpm's, but driving it around town I just don't find myself above that RPM range all that often.

One unrelated "upgrade" I gave my car this year was electronically controlled exhaust cutouts just after the headers. I do feel like it pulls harder at lower RPM's with the cutouts open, but I don't have any dyno numbers or track times to back that up. Not sure if that means my exhaust is too restrictive or if this motor just likes to breathe freely or what, but thought I'd mention it if you think your exhaust could be holding it back.

Also FWIW I haven't touched the distributor or the carb in 3 or so years and it's been incredibly reliable for me during that time.

So yeah, I think you could benefit from giving yours a full tune up per the advice that's already been given in this thread. This is the least cost/most benefit so it's the obvious place to start.

Mine has cut outs. Doesnt make a difference if open or closed. Ive had a few guys take a look at it and they dont know what to tell me. It runs great when parked but under load its a whale stuck on land in my opinion. My dads stock 340 in his dart blows this thing away. Puts me back in the seat easily.

If it's not broken, let's fix it till it is.
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post #57 of 89 (permalink) Old Oct 16th, 19, 12:26 AM
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re: ZZ4 upgrades?

Mine runs great. As I said in an earlier post, I recurved the distributor, added a Performer RPM intake, 650-750 carb, (not much difference), and the GMPP HOTcam kit. Good vacuum, daily driver quality idle, and pulls hard to 6K RPM. I've run it with an auto and a manual, in a car and a truck. Long tube and shorty headers, I have no complaints. It certainly doesn't feel weak or under powered. In fact, I always worry I'm going to wreck the 5 speed in my truck if I get in it too much. It was fine in my Chevelle, but I wanted a big block from the get go and the stock TBI 350 in my truck sucked. It's a whole other animal now.
Work with what you have and it'll perform the way it should. Leave it alone and it'll always suck.

If you do decide to swap it out, I might be interested in it.
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post #58 of 89 (permalink) Old Oct 16th, 19, 12:28 AM
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re: ZZ4 upgrades?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hotrodder000 View Post
Well, I want it to have it's best value with decent power. I am so disappointed with the ZZ4. It gets off the line slower than my 2003 Chevy Avalanche with the 5.3L. Every time I go to a car show, chevelles have a 396 and 454 and I get asked everywhere if mine has one or the other. All I can tell them is its a crappy slow 350. So at this point, I want better power but at what cost? Try to figure this small block out or just start putting a big block while cruising as is. Dont want to waste money on this zz4 if its not going to provide results. Trying to find comparisons on stock zz4 driveability but hard to match.
Does it run any better, since you had that shop tune it?

Steve R
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post #59 of 89 (permalink) Old Oct 16th, 19, 10:48 AM
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Re: ZZ4 upgrades?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hotrodder000 View Post
Well, I want it to have it's best value with decent power. I am so disappointed with the ZZ4. It gets off the line slower than my 2003 Chevy Avalanche with the 5.3L. Every time I go to a car show, chevelles have a 396 and 454 and I get asked everywhere if mine has one or the other. All I can tell them is its a crappy slow 350. So at this point, I want better power but at what cost? Try to figure this small block out or just start putting a big block while cruising as is. Dont want to waste money on this zz4 if its not going to provide results. Trying to find comparisons on stock zz4 driveability but hard to match.

Sounds like you're thinking along the same lines as me. I don't see the point in throwing $$ into a new top end for my small block when I know that I'll still want to go big block anyways. Spend your money buying or building what you want instead, and make the most of what you have now by optimizing your tune. It will cost you next to nothing to recurve your distributor, and if you need to swap out some of the small parts on your carb then that's going to be dirt cheap too.

'66 SS Clone
Fast Burn 385hp Crate 350 (for now)
Muncie M20 & 3.42 Posi
UMI Stage 2 Suspension all around
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post #60 of 89 (permalink) Old Oct 16th, 19, 5:12 PM Thread Starter
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Zz69 I need to come find you over Thanksgiving when I come back to PA to visit family. Take me for a ride so I can see if mine is what it should be haha.

Steve,

Shop said everything looked fine. Runs great at idle, timing looks good, plugs look normal. Didnt go further.

Maybe tomorrow I can video some driving and takeoff videos

If it's not broken, let's fix it till it is.
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