Block, Trans VIN match? - Page 2 - Chevelle Tech
Tag Team De-coding cowl tags and vin numbers.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
post #16 of 43 (permalink) Old Aug 14th, 09, 9:44 PM Thread Starter
Tech Team
Pat
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Indiana
Posts: 68
Re: Block, Trans VIN match?

Thanks for all the comments and feedback on the car! I'm sure I will have many more questions before its done. Not that they are ever done I'll try and do the car justice as thats what was promised to the former owner. He did'nt want it wasting away in someone elses barn as he was doing just fine with that course of action on his own! It is original paint but its too far gone to save IMO. Small amount of rust through etc. The interior will save as original. The block is sweet and is less than a thousand out so will stay standard bore! Seals, bearings, rings, balanced then back in with original pistons.

It does have a rear swaybar on it? I read that the F41 was not available untill 69 except for the Z16? Still has the original 4.56 four series posi. Here's a horrible photo.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	1967 chevelle prep 4.jpg
Views:	100
Size:	55.3 KB
ID:	22681   Click image for larger version

Name:	1967 chevelle block bore.jpg
Views:	116
Size:	87.6 KB
ID:	22682   Click image for larger version

Name:	1967 chevelle 4 series.jpg
Views:	119
Size:	29.6 KB
ID:	22685  
36j1967 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #17 of 43 (permalink) Old Aug 14th, 09, 9:57 PM
Lifetime Premium Member
Verle
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Tulsa, Ok
Posts: 3,849
Re: Block, Trans VIN match?

The engine pad looks very good. The broach marks are visible and are typical of factory production. The VIN and build stamps are clear and are consistent with known original parts.

The VIN number stamp was applied at the assembly plant when the engine & transmission mated to the paperwork for a specific car.

Typical factory procedure was for the worker to assemble the VIN gang stamp from the paperwork, stamp the block and stamp the transmission immediately after. I believe they were bolted together at that time and setting in the frame.

There was some assembly variation from plant to plant but this procedure is known for some GM plants. Not sure about all.

The apparent difference in the size may be caused by how deep the imprint is. Cast iron is hard compared to the aluminum transmission so the stamp is deeper on the transmission making the measured height more.

Is it possible they used different stamp gangs? Yes, but unlikely. Having two people making up the same number on different stamp holders costs more and introduces possible errors.

Verle
Tulsa, Ok
65 Chevelle L79 since Feb 1965


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Verle is offline  
post #18 of 43 (permalink) Old Aug 14th, 09, 10:07 PM Thread Starter
Tech Team
Pat
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Indiana
Posts: 68
Re: Block, Trans VIN match?

That was my take on the process too Verle. At least with camaro production that was the case. The three in the vin series are different fonts so this can't be from the same gang stamp. I do feel strongly this drivetrain has never been apart before. I guess we will make note and see if others can confirm with Baltimore 67's.
36j1967 is offline  
 
post #19 of 43 (permalink) Old Aug 14th, 09, 11:16 PM
Senior Tech Team
Mike
 
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: Michigan,USA
Posts: 3,000
Re: Block, Trans VIN match?

The CON VIN was stamped on both the engine and the trans at the same time, just after the trans was mated to the engine. The same die should have stamped both as one person did it.

What this and you will see the man stamping the con vins
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YII-h21xJvw
elcamino is offline  
post #20 of 43 (permalink) Old Aug 15th, 09, 10:18 AM
Lifetime Premium Member
Jeff
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: NC
Posts: 3,354
Re: Block, Trans VIN match?

Quote:
Originally Posted by elcamino View Post
The CON VIN was stamped on both the engine and the trans at the same time, just after the trans was mated to the engine. The same die should have stamped both as one person did it.

What this and you will see the man stamping the con vins
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YII-h21xJvw
Neat video. But I don't believe we can rely on a 1996 Corvette Bowling Green assembly procedure to determine what was or was not done in Baltimore in 1967. For all we know, the 67 engine could have got stamped as it left its crate for the line, and the 67 trans could have got stamped as it left its crate for the line (rather than after the two were mated together). Until we find a few guys who worked in these plants and still remember anything (or find a video from 1964-1967), we'll never know for sure.

But original untouched cars do not lie. As noted above, I have documented multiple original cars, with drivetrains that had never been out of the car or apart, from the Kansas plant (at least ten 65's and five 66's) and Fremont plant (four 66's), that all have completely different stamp dies on the engine versus the trans. It is not a depth of stamp issue, they are different height and width characters (trans characters are larger). I will check the trans VIN on my original Baltimore 66 this weekend to see if the same held true there (if I can find it on the dirty old powerglide).

Also note that the stamp on top of the frame rail (and the hidden 67 body vin stamp on the firewall) is never the same font and size as the engine stamp or the trans stamp. If the theory were true that there could only be one gang stamp used on a given car so as to minimize errors, then they would have used the same stamp for the frame and Con-VIN too. But they did not. So if there were at least two stamps being used, then there's no basis to say there couldn't possibly have been a third stamp being used too.

Jeff Helms
-65 Z16 Survivor (Red/black/white int.) (
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
)
-65 Z16 drag car, unrestored (Red/Red)
-65 SS Convertible (Red)
-65 300 2-dr Wagon, Modified (Tuxedo Black)

-66 SS L78 Coupe (Marina Blue), unrestored
-66 SS L34/M20 Survivor Coupe (Aztec Bronze) - 'Vintage Legend' Certified (
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
)
-66 SS Convertible (Marina Blue)- "LOADED"

-67 SS L78 Survivor Coupe (Grenada Gold)
-67 SS L34/M21 Survivor Coupe (Tahoe Turquoise)
-67 SS L34/M20 Convertible (Bolero Red)
-67 ElCamino L35/M20 (Butternut Yellow)
-67 Concours Station Wagon (Mountain Green)

-67 Camaro SS350 Survivor (Grenada Gold)- 'Vintage Legend' Certified by the American Camaro Association
jeffschevelle is offline  
post #21 of 43 (permalink) Old Aug 15th, 09, 10:48 AM
Super Mod
Rich
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Waverly, NE USA
Posts: 15,816
Garage
Re: Block, Trans VIN match?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffschevelle View Post
Neat video. But I don't believe we can rely on a 1996 Corvette Bowling Green assembly procedure to determine what was or was not done in Baltimore in 1967. For all we know, the 67 engine could have got stamped as it left its crate for the line, and the 67 trans could have got stamped as it left its crate for the line (rather than after the two were mated together). Until we find a few guys who worked in these plants and still remember anything (or find a video from 1964-1967), we'll never know for sure.

But original untouched cars do not lie. As noted above, I have documented multiple original cars, with drivetrains that had never been out of the car or apart, from the Kansas plant (at least ten 65's and five 66's) and Fremont plant (four 66's), that all have completely different stamp dies on the engine versus the trans. It is not a depth of stamp issue, they are different height and width characters (trans characters are larger). I will check the trans VIN on my original Baltimore 66 this weekend to see if the same held true there (if I can find it on the dirty old powerglide).

Also note that the stamp on top of the frame rail (and the hidden 67 body vin stamp on the firewall) is never the same font and size as the engine stamp or the trans stamp. If the theory were true that there could only be one gang stamp used on a given car so as to minimize errors, then they would have used the same stamp for the frame and Con-VIN too. But they did not. So if there were at least two stamps being used, then there's no basis to say there couldn't possibly have been a third stamp being used too.
Ultra super DITTO everything Jeff just said.

NCOA member #220
ACES member #1670
Team Chevelle #998

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Rich Cummings
Rich-L79 is offline  
post #22 of 43 (permalink) Old Aug 15th, 09, 11:25 AM
Team Member
Mike Crown
 
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 7,409
Re: Block, Trans VIN match?

Jeff

How about the location of the Trans Stamp.. have you got other examples of 67 Balt. Trans with stamp on top of case vs side of case? Just curious..


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.




To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.




To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
66 MYSTERY CHEVELLE is offline  
post #23 of 43 (permalink) Old Aug 15th, 09, 4:32 PM
Gold Founding Member
Dale
 
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: Lawton, Oklahoma
Posts: 19,908
Re: Block, Trans VIN match?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 66 MYSTERY CHEVELLE View Post
Me personally, I don't believe all plants used the same Stamp on the Trans as they did on the Block...but I am sure you welcome others to give input beyond Rich and I.

Grenada Gold is nice color!

Enjoy the car!
I agree. I've seen numerous engine stamps on pre-69 blocks that were individually stamped characters - not straight and not always the same size, such as the plant letter may be smaller or larger than the numbers. Atlanta, Baltimore & KC were generally pretty evenly sized and clean where Fremont tended to be a hit-and-miss situation. The video of the last C4 Corvette getting stamped is nice but that's 30 years down the road from your 67.

I've heard/read the gang stamp didn't come into its own until 1969 but I could be remembering that wrong.


TC Gold #92 ~ August 1998
*
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

*
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

* Build Sheet Data Collection
* Author:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
DaleM is offline  
post #24 of 43 (permalink) Old Aug 15th, 09, 6:09 PM
Senior Tech Team
Mike
 
Join Date: Aug 1998
Location: Michigan,USA
Posts: 3,000
Re: Block, Trans VIN match?

Quote:
Also note that the stamp on top of the frame rail (and the hidden 67 body vin stamp on the firewall) is never the same font and size as the engine stamp or the trans stamp.
The frame line was no where near the engine line or the body line. Those are all in different areas of the plant.
elcamino is offline  
post #25 of 43 (permalink) Old Aug 16th, 09, 9:47 PM
Lifetime Premium Member
Verle
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Tulsa, Ok
Posts: 3,849
Re: Block, Trans VIN match?

Quote:
Originally Posted by elcamino View Post
The frame line was no where near the engine line or the body line. Those are all in different areas of the plant.
Is it possible to assume those parts do come together someplace in the plant?

Verle
Tulsa, Ok
65 Chevelle L79 since Feb 1965


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Verle is offline  
post #26 of 43 (permalink) Old Aug 16th, 09, 10:02 PM
Lifetime Premium Member
Jeff
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: NC
Posts: 3,354
Re: Block, Trans VIN match?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 66 MYSTERY CHEVELLE View Post
Jeff

How about the location of the Trans Stamp.. have you got other examples of 67 Balt. Trans with stamp on top of case vs side of case? Just curious..

Yes, two others. Do you have some 67 Balitmores on the side of the case?

BTW, where is the vin stamp on a 66 or 67 powerglide? I have only owned two automatics in my life and can't find the stamp on either one!

Jeff Helms
-65 Z16 Survivor (Red/black/white int.) (
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
)
-65 Z16 drag car, unrestored (Red/Red)
-65 SS Convertible (Red)
-65 300 2-dr Wagon, Modified (Tuxedo Black)

-66 SS L78 Coupe (Marina Blue), unrestored
-66 SS L34/M20 Survivor Coupe (Aztec Bronze) - 'Vintage Legend' Certified (
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
)
-66 SS Convertible (Marina Blue)- "LOADED"

-67 SS L78 Survivor Coupe (Grenada Gold)
-67 SS L34/M21 Survivor Coupe (Tahoe Turquoise)
-67 SS L34/M20 Convertible (Bolero Red)
-67 ElCamino L35/M20 (Butternut Yellow)
-67 Concours Station Wagon (Mountain Green)

-67 Camaro SS350 Survivor (Grenada Gold)- 'Vintage Legend' Certified by the American Camaro Association
jeffschevelle is offline  
post #27 of 43 (permalink) Old Aug 16th, 09, 11:38 PM Thread Starter
Tech Team
Pat
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Indiana
Posts: 68
Re: Block, Trans VIN match?

This is the only place I've ever found a vin on a powerglide. Thats the passenger side lower corner of the bellhousing just above the corner of the glide pan. This stamp was on a 68 SB SS camaro I restored a few years back. The block vin and trans vin are a match in size and font. But, what I'm after is if these components matched vins on 67 chevelle's? Different plant and different model comparisons are just assumptions. From the opinions given so far I'm assuming nothing is difinitive regarding this subject?
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	A 68 L48 035.jpg
Views:	2514
Size:	73.2 KB
ID:	22758   Click image for larger version

Name:	A 68 L48 039.jpg
Views:	69
Size:	62.8 KB
ID:	22759  
36j1967 is offline  
post #28 of 43 (permalink) Old Aug 17th, 09, 12:15 AM
Team Member
Mike Crown
 
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 7,409
Re: Block, Trans VIN match?

Yes, Jeff.. I have looked at 67's with Balt stamp on side of case.. I have no recollection of when they were built though


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.




To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.




To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 0 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
66 MYSTERY CHEVELLE is offline  
post #29 of 43 (permalink) Old Aug 20th, 09, 12:20 AM
Tech Team
Bryon
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 946
Re: Block, Trans VIN match?

From my experience with 67s, the transmission stamp font usually does not match the engine font. I have a couple of 67 cases with the partial VIN stamped on top.

After looking at the picture of your transmission stamp, I have a question. Does the aluminum directly under and near the stamped area look porous or like it may have been ground down? It looks a little unusual to me, but its only a picture and it would be easier to tell by looking at it in person.

Red 1967 Chevelle SS 396, 4 speed, 3.31 12 bolt posi, black bench seat interior, Bolero Red - long term restoration project
68 Camaro SS - 468 BBC, 781 heads, RPM Air Gap intake, Lakewood bellhousing, M21, BO coded 12 bolt - but 3.31 posi now. Old drag car, back on the street.
bcmiller is offline  
post #30 of 43 (permalink) Old Aug 20th, 09, 12:34 AM Thread Starter
Tech Team
Pat
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Indiana
Posts: 68
Re: Block, Trans VIN match?

The area around the stamp is what I would call "slop" or "flashing" made of aluminum like the case. Its not smooth and I dont see any signs of grinding? It's certainly not pretty in that area.
36j1967 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the Chevelle Tech forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address. Note, you will be sent a confirmation request to this address.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Old Thread Warning
This Thread is more than 3516 days old. It is very likely that it does not need any further discussion and thus bumping it serves no purpose.
If you still feel it is necessary to make a new reply, you can still do so though.

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome