Lost one on the break in today... - Page 6 - Chevelle Tech
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post #76 of 110 (permalink) Old Jan 25th, 16, 10:46 PM
540 RAT
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Re: Lost one on the break in today...

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrocLuno View Post
Please use the oil that the cam maker requires. If Howard's, it'll be Brad Penn or equal.

...
That is bad advice for a couple of reasons.

1. Just because a Company sells flat tappet cams and lifters, does not mean they know the first thing about what motor oil should be used. They are staffed by the same kind of people who have been brainwashed to believe that high zinc oil is all you need. They don't even know, what they don't know, which is that the whole idea of that thinking, is a total myth that has been busted big time. The fact is, some high zinc oils are good, and some high zinc oils are not. But, they don't even know that, so they often recommend oils that have been involved with oil related failures that they chock up to, "sometimes, things just happen". Well, things don't "just happen", they happen for a reason. And every time I've come across a flat tappet engine failure on a Forum, it always involves oils that performed poorly in my Engineering tests on motor oil.

2. I've performed Engineering Wear Protection testing on over 170 different motor oils. And unfortunately, Brad Penn oils have always been among the poorest performers. I have nothing against Brad Penn at all, but I feel that people deserve to know the truth when it comes to protecting their engines. Because there continues to be a ton of bad information given out on Forums from people who mean well, but just don't know the facts. Every single oil I have ever tested, is of course tested exactly the same. And here's how Brad Penn oils ranked:

The Wear Protection reference categories are:

• Over 105,000 psi = INCREDIBLE wear protection

• 90,000 to 105,000 psi = OUTSTANDING wear protection

• 75,000 to 90,000 psi = GOOD wear protection

• 60,000 to 75,000 psi = MODEST wear protection

• Below 60,000 psi = UNDESIRABLE wear protection

The HIGHER the psi value, the BETTER the Wear Protection.

• 0W30 Brad Penn, Penn Grade 1, partial synthetic = 71,377 psi, ranked 126th out of 176 oils.

• 10W30 Brad Penn, Penn Grade 1, partial synthetic = 71,206 psi, ranked 128th out of 176 oils tested.

• 10W40 Brad Penn, Penn Grade 1, partial synthetic = 57,864 psi, ranked 164th out of 176 oils tested.

• 30wt Brad Penn, Penn Grade 1, Break-In Oil, conventional = 56,020 psi, ranked 168th out of 176 oils tested.

That means that 125 other oils provided better wear protection than even the best Brad Penn oil. And not surprisingly, Brad Penn oils have been involved in a number of oil related engine failures, two of which are included in my Blog. So, you can see the details there, at the link below.

And while Royal Purple was the subject Break-In oil in this posting, here's how it performed:

• Royal Purple 10W30 Break-In Oil, conventional = 62,931 psi, ranked 154th out of 176 oils tested.

I recommend that flat tappet engines, especially high performance versions, use an oil that produces over 90,000 psi, to provide the best possible cam and lifter wear protection. One of these highly ranked oils should be used for Break-In and continue to be used after Break-In. The so-called Break-In oils are as a group, the worst performing oils I have ever tested.

The fact is, even cams and lifters that are only moderately hard, such as with less than ideal quality parts, can still live just fine as long as the oil being used prevents metal to metal contact. Once galling has begun, the parts are toast. The oil used absolutely makes all the difference.

Keep in mind that my test data exactly matches real world experience, making it the real deal, and the best motor oil reference information you can find anywhere.

For the truth about motor oil wear protection, that is not just opinion or theory, see my "TECH FACTS, NOT MYTHS" Blog, which now has over 150,000 views worldwide. You can see the Blog and my entire 170+ motor oil “Wear Protection Ranking List”, which is "proven" by the Physics and Chemistry involved, and EXACTLY matches real world severe over-heating experience, real world Track experience, real world flat tappet break-in experience, and real world High Performance Street experience (test data validation doesn’t get any better than this), along with additional motor oil tech FACTS, by going to the Blog link below. Credentials, methodology, proof, facts, data, Industry endorsements, real world validation, etc, are all included in the Blog. See for yourself, the engine you save may be your own.

http://540ratblog.wordpress.com/

540 RAT
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post #77 of 110 (permalink) Old Jan 25th, 16, 11:10 PM Thread Starter
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Alan
 
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Re: Lost one on the break in today...

Yeah I don't know why my dad used the Royal Purple Break In oil. Usually I just use Delo and a Break In additive...he took it upon himself to buy the RP since "it already has additive in it".. I highly doubt this is the cause of the failure but... I wish he had dumped some additional break in additive.

However, for no worse then what the cam/lifter was damaged, this wasn't the main problem.
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post #78 of 110 (permalink) Old Jan 25th, 16, 11:12 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Lost one on the break in today...

The failed lifter.
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post #79 of 110 (permalink) Old Jan 25th, 16, 11:12 PM
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MARK
 
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Re: Lost one on the break in today...

Quote:
Originally Posted by 540 RAT View Post
That is bad advice for a couple of reasons.

1. Just because a Company sells flat tappet cams and lifters, does not mean they know the first thing about what motor oil should be used. They are staffed by the same kind of people who have been brainwashed to believe that high zinc oil is all you need. They don't even know, what they don't know, which is that the whole idea of that thinking, is a total myth that has been busted big time. The fact is, some high zinc oils are good, and some high zinc oils are not. But, they don't even know that, so they often recommend oils that have been involved with oil related failures that they chock up to, "sometimes, things just happen". Well, things don't "just happen", they happen for a reason. And every time I've come across a flat tappet engine failure on a Forum, it always involves oils that performed poorly in my Engineering tests on motor oil.

2. I've performed Engineering Wear Protection testing on over 170 different motor oils. And unfortunately, Brad Penn oils have always been among the poorest performers. I have nothing against Brad Penn at all, but I feel that people deserve to know the truth when it comes to protecting their engines. Because there continues to be a ton of bad information given out on Forums from people who mean well, but just don't know the facts. Every single oil I have ever tested, is of course tested exactly the same. And here's how Brad Penn oils ranked:

The Wear Protection reference categories are:

• Over 105,000 psi = INCREDIBLE wear protection

• 90,000 to 105,000 psi = OUTSTANDING wear protection

• 75,000 to 90,000 psi = GOOD wear protection

• 60,000 to 75,000 psi = MODEST wear protection

• Below 60,000 psi = UNDESIRABLE wear protection

The HIGHER the psi value, the BETTER the Wear Protection.

• 0W30 Brad Penn, Penn Grade 1, partial synthetic = 71,377 psi, ranked 126th out of 176 oils.

• 10W30 Brad Penn, Penn Grade 1, partial synthetic = 71,206 psi, ranked 128th out of 176 oils tested.

• 10W40 Brad Penn, Penn Grade 1, partial synthetic = 57,864 psi, ranked 164th out of 176 oils tested.

• 30wt Brad Penn, Penn Grade 1, Break-In Oil, conventional = 56,020 psi, ranked 168th out of 176 oils tested.

That means that 125 other oils provided better wear protection than even the best Brad Penn oil. And not surprisingly, Brad Penn oils have been involved in a number of oil related engine failures, two of which are included in my Blog. So, you can see the details there, at the link below.

And while Royal Purple was the subject Break-In oil in this posting, here's how it performed:

• Royal Purple 10W30 Break-In Oil, conventional = 62,931 psi, ranked 154th out of 176 oils tested.

I recommend that flat tappet engines, especially high performance versions, use an oil that produces over 90,000 psi, to provide the best possible cam and lifter wear protection. One of these highly ranked oils should be used for Break-In and continue to be used after Break-In. The so-called Break-In oils are as a group, the worst performing oils I have ever tested.

The fact is, even cams and lifters that are only moderately hard, such as with less than ideal quality parts, can still live just fine as long as the oil being used prevents metal to metal contact. Once galling has begun, the parts are toast. The oil used absolutely makes all the difference.

Keep in mind that my test data exactly matches real world experience, making it the real deal, and the best motor oil reference information you can find anywhere.

For the truth about motor oil wear protection, that is not just opinion or theory, see my "TECH FACTS, NOT MYTHS" Blog, which now has over 150,000 views worldwide. You can see the Blog and my entire 170+ motor oil “Wear Protection Ranking List”, which is "proven" by the Physics and Chemistry involved, and EXACTLY matches real world severe over-heating experience, real world Track experience, real world flat tappet break-in experience, and real world High Performance Street experience (test data validation doesn’t get any better than this), along with additional motor oil tech FACTS, by going to the Blog link below. Credentials, methodology, proof, facts, data, Industry endorsements, real world validation, etc, are all included in the Blog. See for yourself, the engine you save may be your own.

http://540ratblog.wordpress.com/

540 RAT
I'm all about using your data, please just tell me what oil to use with my 360 inch flattappet engine, thanks.

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post #80 of 110 (permalink) Old Jan 25th, 16, 11:32 PM
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Re: Lost one on the break in today...

There was one test that was suggested (2nd page I think) that should have been performed.
Remove the dizzy and prime the pump to see what kind of pressure you had on the gauge. The reason is Melling was selling bad pumps in around 2006.
It affected Melling M55, M55A, and the M55HV and SealedPower as well. Even the Moroso blueprinted 2100 pump suffered from this design change.
I had one go on me.. Since then I've been using Titan pumps. They cost money but, a rebuild cost more and why would you want to go cheep on something that's basically the heart of your engine?
Anyway, I would have liked to know what the results were on the pump. Sorry for the bad luck.

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post #81 of 110 (permalink) Old Jan 26th, 16, 12:03 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Lost one on the break in today...

Main bearing
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post #82 of 110 (permalink) Old Jan 26th, 16, 12:06 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Lost one on the break in today...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diabolical View Post
There was one test that was suggested (2nd page I think) that should have been performed.
Remove the dizzy and prime the pump to see what kind of pressure you had on the gauge. The reason is Melling was selling bad pumps in around 2006.
It affected Melling M55, M55A, and the M55HV and SealedPower as well. Even the Moroso blueprinted 2100 pump suffered from this design change.
I had one go on me.. Since then I've been using Titan pumps. They cost money but, a rebuild cost more and why would you want to go cheep on something that's basically the heart of your engine?
Anyway, I would have liked to know what the results were on the pump. Sorry for the bad luck.

We primed the system with a drill before starting it the first time, I had right at 60 psi with the drill on High..I also verified all lifters/rockers were oiling well and they were, that's why we proceeded with the start up.

1971 Corvette
VortecPro 496"
T400, Tight 10" converter
3.36 gears, 3700lb raceweight
[email protected], 1.51 60'
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post #83 of 110 (permalink) Old Jan 26th, 16, 12:13 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Lost one on the break in today...

Pistons...

Keep in mind, all of this stuff was brand new with literally 15 mins of run time.
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3.36 gears, 3700lb raceweight
[email protected], 1.51 60'
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post #84 of 110 (permalink) Old Jan 26th, 16, 8:31 AM
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Re: Lost one on the break in today...

Was the plug in the passage by the rear main? Looks like no oil was filtered.

Jim

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post #85 of 110 (permalink) Old Jan 26th, 16, 8:41 AM
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Re: Lost one on the break in today...

Wow, the wear from 15 min is amazing. Without the photos I would not have comprehended how bad it was.
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post #86 of 110 (permalink) Old Jan 26th, 16, 9:29 AM
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Re: Lost one on the break in today...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShouldntBeHere View Post
We primed the system with a drill before starting it the first time, I had right at 60 psi with the drill on High..I also verified all lifters/rockers were oiling well and they were, that's why we proceeded with the start up.
I did catch that. I'm talking about after you had ran it and discovered there was an issue.
Again, I know its all said and done now but, the best way to trouble shoot is to check every part before and after an indecent in order to isolate the problem even if you already know it was fine the first time around. From what I have read I wouldn't be blaming the cam right now.

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post #87 of 110 (permalink) Old Jan 26th, 16, 10:16 AM
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Re: Lost one on the break in today...

On teardown, I'd look for the position of the piston in the oil pressure relief valve.
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post #88 of 110 (permalink) Old Jan 26th, 16, 12:50 PM
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Re: Lost one on the break in today...

Quote:
Originally Posted by 77 cruiser View Post
Was the plug in the passage by the rear main? Looks like no oil was filtered.
Great question.

I don't think you can blame this kind of carnage on Royal Purple break-in oil. I've used it before with a fresh flat tappet cam and I had no problems at all.
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post #89 of 110 (permalink) Old Jan 26th, 16, 2:57 PM
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Re: Lost one on the break in today...

Fwiw, I've run royal purple parts store oil with an agressive flat tappet cam for 7 years.
I was always sure to add a 4oz can of EOS or Comp 159 or ZDDP plus with each oil change. Never had an issue with it period!

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post #90 of 110 (permalink) Old Jan 26th, 16, 6:40 PM
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Re: Lost one on the break in today...

What is strange is the oil had no metal. How is that possible.

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