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post #1 of 17 (permalink) Old Jun 6th, 13, 9:10 AM Thread Starter
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question about oil

i know a lot of guys are running hydraulic rollers in your race motors, and a lot of those being straub cams. i was just curious what kind of oil are you guys running.
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post #2 of 17 (permalink) Old Jun 6th, 13, 9:17 AM
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Re: question about oil

I use the 15/40 Rotella oil.

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post #3 of 17 (permalink) Old Jun 6th, 13, 10:11 AM
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Re: question about oil

and street motors
i think its more of a lifter issue
the light stuff may bleed off faster
but i've run 10/30 and 5/30 and have no rpm issues
a BBC with heavy valves may see and rpm issue sooner

67 camaro:
420 - 641hp HRcam 1.39, 9.79 @ 137.5
502 - 626hp 252/263HRcam 1.44, 10.08 @ 132.7
62 Nova
383/200-4R/12-bolt w 373s
224/224 HR cam
1.57 10.97 @ 121.2
69 chevelle 350, 200-4R 411s [email protected] (sold)

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post #4 of 17 (permalink) Old Jun 6th, 13, 12:07 PM
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Re: question about oil

If you have good oil pressure, a 10w-30 is just fine. Any thicker will only cost you HP.
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post #5 of 17 (permalink) Old Jun 6th, 13, 3:23 PM
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Re: question about oil

Valvoline 10w30 VR1 synthetic in my big block with Straub hyd roller.

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zz502 (Straub Cam, RPM Airgap, ProSystems Carb, MSD, etc.)
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post #6 of 17 (permalink) Old Jun 6th, 13, 6:51 PM
dt
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Re: question about oil

10W40 at first with lifter noise at first start-up. Switched to 10W30 Valvoline VR1, Noise went away. Go figure. This is in my BBC.
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post #7 of 17 (permalink) Old Jun 6th, 13, 6:51 PM
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Re: question about oil

It depends a on which Morel HR lifter you have
The ones that Chris usually sells, Morel 4603 recommends 10/30 of the top of my head.
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post #8 of 17 (permalink) Old Jun 6th, 13, 6:53 PM
dt
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Re: question about oil

Quote:
Originally Posted by 482 ZL1 View Post
It depends a on which Morel HR lifter you have
The ones that Chris usually sells, Morel 4603 recommends 10/30 of the top of my head.
Nope, 15W40 I was told.
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post #9 of 17 (permalink) Old Jun 6th, 13, 7:14 PM
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Re: question about oil

Quote:
Originally Posted by dt View Post
Nope, 15W40 I was told.
My bad 15/40 for both 4603, 5045 RECOMMENDED
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post #10 of 17 (permalink) Old Jun 7th, 13, 10:25 AM
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Re: question about oil

Good info on oil choices,

That seems to always stump everybody (including myself) "What oil should I use??"
This is what I learned in several Adult education classes which completely changed my old beliefs, since my very first self oil-change some 35 years ago! Of course, Hi-Po/Hi-Revs built mills are in a class of their own, & thicker viscosity does mean some power loss due to higher resistance of the entire internal rotating assembly spinning through thicker oil mist, along w/various valve-train surfaces overcoming a sticking effect of higher viscosity.
(like pulling your fingers apart when dry v.s wet.) I'm no tech. by any-means, so correct me if I'm wrong! The use a standardized rating for all oils, all brands (may be different in Europe cuz of metric sys., Not sure!)
The first number (example: 5/30 wae.) refers to the lowest temp (F.) the oil can go w/out losing its designated viscosity=thickness. The second number the most important, (unless you live in severe weather) it stands for the actual viscosity(thickness) of the oil. So 20/50 wae simply means this oil was certified as maintaining its 50 wae viscosity(=thickness) all the way down to 20 degrees F. which is pretty freaking cold for a California gear head like myself!!!! Its importance is cold start-ups on freezing days, the wrong oil could freeze-up/thicken beyond the point of the cranking motor cannot overcome the resistance of really thick oil that cannot even be pumped through all the oil galleries (hence= oil block warmers you plug in to keep oil from turning into a 5 quart oil-sicle!!!
Now, in year long temperate weather like California (unless you live atop the mountains!) No need to worry about that aspect, which is why we can drop the minimum temp. viscosity & only concentrate on the true room temperature viscosity of any oil. Rule of thumb is generally new engines can safely handle lower viscosity for less resistance & older, hi-miles engines get a thicker viscosity ( higher second number like= 10/50 wae.) Which actually "cushions" the below specs of internal worn engine parts (rings/valve guides/crank & cam bearings...etc..Of course they're are exceptions to every case. Its also a personal preference, some people are misers & actually buy that 69 cents a quart recycled oil!!!! This actually works if you change it regularly & check you level often(which s/be done w/all cars regardless of age/condition!) Now for the synthetic oils which seems go have a certain mystery about them.
1. They are expensive
2. They are worth the money, depending on how much you value your ride!
3. The main difference is that synthetic oil is much more stable & doesn't lose its viscosity as quickly as normal oil does under extreme loads
4. Myth: synthetic oil doesn't need to be changed as often.
5. Truth: synthetic oil has the same life span as regular oil & needs to be changed just as often (good rule of thumb= every 3000 miles or every season= summer,winter,fall, which ever comes first.)
Truth: because of the constant consistency of synthetic oil, it's molecules are uniformly the same smaller size which is great for eliminating as much friction between moving surfaces as possible= more power & mileage.
6. Myth: You cant switch to synthetic once your motor has been using standard oil for a long time. Nope, you can switch to synthetic anytime, check to see if you have sludge & flush it if possible before changing oil.
7. Truth: Because of smaller consistently uniform synthetic oil molecules, there is a better probability of a increase of oil leaking, this is due to the smaller molecules getting by a weak point in the gasket(s) main seal(s) do keep a eye on you oil level (weekly is fine, unless there are other problems that could compromise oil consumption, and/or loss of oil. Like I said, I'm no automotive guru. These are just suggestions based on experience & research...Hope it helps!!!
Peace, Alan
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post #11 of 17 (permalink) Old Jun 7th, 13, 10:35 AM
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Re: question about oil

I'm a Royal Purple 15/40 or Valvoline VR1 10/30, whichever I have more of. And just bought crapload of Valvoline as it was just about half price,

Couple of junkers and a few clunkers.
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post #12 of 17 (permalink) Old Jun 7th, 13, 3:13 PM
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Re: question about oil

Pick a bottle off the shelf and dump it in sure the motor will live just fine.

Science in breaking down oils sure there is but why pull your hair out over it.

Have run the cheapest store brand oils in a pinch and the good stuff never had a problem either way.

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post #13 of 17 (permalink) Old Jun 7th, 13, 10:09 PM
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Re: question about oil

No disrespect intended but you are misinformed on a couple things i just wanted to clear up for those that arent aware.

You say:

5. Truth: synthetic oil has the same life span as regular oil & needs to be changed just as often (good rule of thumb= every 3000 miles or every season= summer,winter,fall, which ever comes first.)

Really,then why does Mobil mfg MOBIL-1 EXTENDED PERF OIL thats specifically formulated with top quality syn base oil and more robust additive pkg designed to go up to 15k miles or 1 yr and for another example Amsoil rec's 8k+ mile oil & filter change intervil too?

Thats because hi quality full syn oil with a more robust additive pkg can go considrably longer then std dino oil under same cond.

Chk this out from Amsoils website on oil change intervals:

Extended Drain Intervals
Not only do AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils provide protection that is superior to conventional oils, but they remain fit for service many times longer as well. Heat and oxidation are the main enemies of lubricant base stocks. The excellent resistance of synthetic lubricants to thermal and oxidative breakdown allows them to be safely used for much longer drain intervals than conventional lubricants. Their uniform and smooth molecular structure allows AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils to operate with less friction and better heat control than conventional lubricants.

The Choice is Clear
When AMSOIL motor oil was introduced in 1972 it was ahead of its time. Today, engine designers have goals of increased fuel economy, reduced exhaust emissions, more performance out of smaller engines and greater durability, increasing the demands placed on motor oils and requiring continuous upgrades. AMSOIL remains at the forefront of the engine oil market by continuing to provide oils that are ahead of their time. No other motor oil is guaranteed for 25,000 miles or one year in normal service, and no other motor oil can match the performance and protection provided by AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils.

Moving on here,you say:

* 20/50 wae simply means this oil was certified as maintaining its 50 wae viscosity(=thickness) all the way down to 20 degrees F.

Well thats not really correct,kinda in a grey area but not really right either.

What it means when you see a 20w-50 grade multi visc oil is that when the oil & motor are cold the oils base wt-grade is a 20wt oil,then as the motor & oil heats up the adiditves in the oil change from the base 20w oil to 25wt-30wt and so on on its way up to full op temp (approx 210deg F) where it hits it max 50wt -grade .

But its not a 50wt oil all the way down to 20 deg F as you stated,some of the castrol 20-50 containers in the past used to state on the back of the container thier GTX 20w-50 was ok to use down to 20degF .

Thats because at 20-30deg F its back to 20w base wt oil not anywhere close to 50WT grade with the oil at a cold 20-30 deg f temp and or when well under 210deg f,the oil has to be close to or at 210deg to hit its 50wt target grade-wt.

Read the following from the experts at AMSOIL about how multi visc oils work ,the diff between std dino and syn oil ,and the diff between the diff groups -classes/groups of syn oils avail on the market too.

Scott

================================================

Motor Oil Viscosity Grades
What does the SAE Viscosity rating on your Motoroil bottle mean?
How do they come up with this rating . . .really?
Most of the time when viscosity is explained words are used that are too technical for the average person to quickly grasp. This leaves them still wondering what the viscosity numbers really mean on a bottle of motor oil. Simply put, viscosity is the oil's resistance to flow or, for the layman, an oil's speed of flow as measured through a device known as a viscometer. The thicker (higher viscosity) of an oil, the slower it will flow. You will see oil viscosity measurement in lube articles stated in kinematic (kv) and absolute (cSt) terms. These are translated into the easier to understand SAE viscosity numbers you see on an oil bottle.

OK . . .What does a 5W-30 do that an SAE 30 won't?
When you see a W on a viscosity rating it means that this oil viscosity has been tested at a Colder temperature. The numbers without the W are all tested at 210 F or 100 C which is considered an approximation of engine operating temperature. In other words, a SAE 30 motor oil is the same viscosity as a 10w-30 or 5W-30 at 210 (100 C). The difference is when the viscosity is tested at a much colder temperature. For example, a 5W-30 motor oil performs like a SAE 5 motor oil would perform at the cold temperature specified, but still has the SAE 30 viscosity at 210 F (100 C) which is engine operating temperature. This allows the engine to get quick oil flow when it is started cold verses dry running until lubricant either warms up sufficiently or is finally forced through the engine oil system. The advantages of a low W viscosity number is obvious. The quicker the oil flows cold, the less dry running. Less dry running means much less engine wear.

Obviously, cold temperature or W ratings are tested differently than regular SAE viscosity ratings. Simply put, these tests are done with a different temperature system. There is a scale for the W, or winter viscosity grades and, depending on which grade is selected, testing is done at different temperatures. See the Tables to the right below for more information.

Basically to determine non-winter grade viscosity using a viscometer a measured amount of oil at 100 C is allowed to flow through an orifice and timed. Using a table they determine SAE viscosity based on different ranges. Thicker or heavy viscosity oils will take longer to flow through the orifice in the viscometer and end up in higher number ranges such as SAE 50 or SAE 60 for example. If an oil flows through faster being thinner/lighter then it will wind up in a low number range such as SAE 10 or SAE 20 for example. Occasionally it is possible for an oil to barely fall into one viscosity range. For example, an oil is barely an SAE 30 having a time that puts it on the very low side. Then another oil is timed to be an SAE 20 on the high side not quite breaking into the SAE 30 numbers. Technically speaking these oils will be close to the same viscosity even though one is an SAE 20 and the other an SAE 30. But you have to draw the line somewhere and that's how the SAE system is designed. Another system takes more accurate numbers into account known as cSt abbreviated for centistokes. You'll see these numbers used often for industrial lubricants such as compressor or hydraulic oils. The table at the right, SAE Viscosity Chart (High Temp), shows the equivalents for cSt and SAE viscosity numbers. You'll see the ranges for cSt compared to SAE numbers. An oil that is 9.2 cSt will be nearly the same viscosity as an oil that is 9.3 cSt, yet one is an SAE 20 and the other is an SAE 30. This is why the cSt centistokes numbers more accurately show oil viscosity.

Now if you look at the table labeled Winter or "W" Grades, you can get valuable information on how the W or winter grade viscosities are measured. Basically, as shown by the chart, when the oil is reduced to a colder temperature it is measured for performance factors. If it performs like a SAE 0 motor oil at the colder temperature, then it will receive the SAE 0W viscosity grade. Consequently, if the motor oil performs like a SAE 20 motor oil at the reduced temperatures (the scale varies - see the chart), then it will be a SAE 20W motor oil.

If a motor oil passes the cold temperature or W (winter grade) specification for a SAE 15W and at 210 F (100 C) flows through the viscometer like a SAE 40 motor oil, then the label will read 15W-40. Getting the picture? Consequently, if the motor oil performs like a SAE 5 motor oil on the reduced temperature scale and flows like a SAE 20 at 210 F (100 C), then this motor oil's label will read 5W-20. And so forth and so on!

I can't tell you how many times I have heard someone, usually an auto mechanic, say that they wouldn't use a 5W-30 motor oil because it is, "Too thin." Then they may use a 10W-30 or SAE 30 motor oil. At engine operating temperatures these oils are the same. The only time the 5W-30 oil is "thin" is at cold start up conditions where you need it to be "thin."

So how do they get a motor oil to flow in the cold when it is a thicker viscosity at 210 F?
The addition of Pour Point Depressant additives (VI) keep the paraffin in petroleum base oils from coalescing together when temperature drops. Pour Point Depressants can keep an oil fluid in extreme cold temperatures, such as in the arctic regions. We will not go into Pour Point Depressing additives at this time except to say they are only used where temperatures are very extreme to keep the motor oil from becoming completely immobilized by the cold temperature extreme. For now we will just discuss the Viscosity Improvers (VI) additives.

Why don't we just use a SAE 10 motor oil so we can get instant lubrication on engine start up?
The reason is simple: it would be a SAE 10 motor oil at 210 F! The lower the viscosity, the more wear will inevitably occur. This is why it is best to use the proper oil viscosity recommended by the auto manufacturer as it will protect hot and at cold start ups. Obviously a 10W-10 motor oil won't have the film strength to prevent engine wear at full operating temperature like a 5W-20, 10W-30 or 5W-30 motor oil for example.

The VI additives have the effect of keeping the oil from thinning excessively when heated. The actual mechanics of this system are a little more complex in that these additives are added to a thinner oil so that it will be fluid at a cold temperature. The VI additives then prevent thinning as the oil is heated so that it now can pass the SAE viscosity rating at 210. For example; if you have a SAE 10 motor oil it will flow like a 10W at the colder temperature. But at 210 degrees it will be a SAE 10 giving us a 10W-10 or SAE 10 viscosity rating. Obviously this is good at cold start up, but terrible at engine operating temperature especially in warmer climates. But by adding the VI additives we can prevent the oil from thinning as it is heated to achieve higher viscosity numbers at 210 degrees. This is how they make a petroleum based motor oil function for the 10W-30 rating. The farther the temperature range, like with a 10W-40, then more VI additives are used. With me so far? Good, now for the bad news.

Drawbacks of Viscosity Improving additives
Multi-grade motor oils perform a great service not being too thick at cold startup to prevent engine wear by providing more instantaneous oil flow to critical engine parts. However, there is a draw back. These additives shear back in high heat or during high shear force operation and break down causing some sludging. What's worse is once the additive begins to be depleted the motor oil no long resists thinning so now you have a thinner motor oil at 210 degrees. Your 10W-30 motor oil can easily become a 10W-20 or even a SAE 10 (10W-10) motor oil. I don't have to tell you why that is bad. The more VI additives the worse the problem which is why auto manufacturers decided to steer car owners away from motor oils loaded with VI additives like the 10W-40 and 20W-50 viscosities.

The less change a motor oil has from high to low temperatures gives it a high Viscosity Index. Synthetic motor oils that are made from Group IV (4) PAO base stocks have Viscosity Indexes of more than 150 because they are manufactured to be a lubricant and don't have the paraffin that causes the thickening as they cool. But petroleum based motor oils (Group I (1) & II (2)) usually have Viscosity Indexes of less than 140 because they tend to thicken more at the colder temperature due to the paraffin despite the addition of Viscosity Improving additives. The higher the Viscosity Index number the less thinning and thickening the motor oil has. In other words, high number good, low number bad. Low numbers thicken more as they cool and thin more hot. You see these Viscosity Index ratings posted on data sheets of motor oils provided by the manufacturer.

As already mentioned, VI improving additives can shear back under pressure and high heat conditions leaving the motor oil unable to protect the engine properly under high heat conditions and cause sludging. Also there is a limit to how much viscosity improving additives can be added without affecting the rest of the motor oil's chemistry. Auto manufacturers have moved away from some motor oils that require a lot of viscosity improving additives, like the 10W-40 and 20W-50 motor oils, to blends that require less viscosity additives like the 5W-20, 5W-30 and 10W-30 motor oils. Because stress loads on multi viscosity motor oils can also cause thinning many racers choose to use a straight weight petroleum racing motor oil or a PAO based Synthetic which do not have the VI additives. But only the Group IV (4) PAO based synthetics generally don't need VI additives. Read on to learn why:

What about synthetic motor oils? Do they need Viscosity Additives?
Group IV (4) and Group V (5) base oil (synthetics) are chemically made from uniform molecules with no paraffin and generally don't need Viscosity Additives. However, in recent years Group III (3) based oils have been labeled "synthetic" through a legal loophole. These are petroleum based Group II (2) oils that have had the sulfur refined out making them more pure and longer lasting. Group III (3) "synthetic" motor oils must employ Viscosity Additives being petroleum based.

Group V (5) based synthetics are usually not compatible with petroleum or petroleum fuels and have poor seal swell. These are used for air compressors, hydraulics, etc. It's the Group IV (4) PAO based synthetics that make the best motor oils. They are compatible with petroleum based oils and fuels plus they have better seal swell than petroleum. Typically PAO based motor oils use no Viscosity Index additives yet pass the multi-grade viscosity requirements as a straight weight! This makes them ideal under a greater temperature range. One advantage of not having to employ Viscosity Improving additives is having a more pure undiluted lubricant that can be loaded with more longevity and performance additives to keep the oil cleaner longer with better mileage/horsepower.

How do I know what motor oil is a Group IV (4) based PAO synthetic motor oil?
As more and more large oil companies switched their "synthetic" motor oils to the less expensive/more profitable Group III (3) base stocks it has become much easier to identify which are PAO based true synthetic. Of the large oil companies, only Mobil 1 Extended Performance, as of this writing (12-16-2012), is still a PAO based true synthetic. The rest, including regular Mobil 1 and Castrol Edge have switched to the cheaper/more profitable Group III (3) petroleum based "synthetic" motor oil. AMSOIL Synthetic Motor Oils are PAO based true synthetic motor oils with the exception of the short oil drain OE and XL synthetic motor oils sold at some Auto Parts Stores and Quick Oil Change Centers. This leaves more than 20 PAO based true synthetic motor oils manufactured and marketed by AMSOIL with only a few Group III (3) based synthetic motor oils identified by the "OE" and "XL" product name.

So as you can see, the average performance of motor oils can be affected by how they change during their service life. Multi grade petroleum can lose viscosity and thin causing accelerated wear as the VI additives shear back. Straight weight petroleum (i.e. SAE 30, SAE 40) thicken a lot as they cool meaning longer time before lubricant reaches critical parts on cold starts, but have no VI additives so they resists thinning. However, they can degrade and thicken as heat and by products of combustion affect the unsaturated chemistry. Group III (3) synthetics resists this degradation much better, but being petroleum based employ some VI additives which is a negative and typically don't have as good performance in the volatility viscosity retention areas. Only the Group IV (4) PAO base synthetics have the saturated chemistry to resist degrading when exposed to the by products of combustion and heat, plus typically employ no VI additives making them very thermally stable for longer periods. For this reason the Group IV (4) synthetics maintain peak mileage and power throughout their service life

Modern motor oils are a marvel of chemistry to be sure. There are a lot more additives in play than the few mentioned here. The API (American Petroleum Institute - sets oil standards in the U.S.), ILSAC (International Lubricants Standardization and Approval Committee - U.S. & Japanese auto/truck manufacturers standards for motor oil) and ACEA (Association des Constructeurs Europeens d'Automobiles - European auto/truck manufacturer oil standards) are some of the different organizations you will see providing rating information on the service grades of different motor oils. Plus there are some auto manufacturers like Mercedes, BMW and Volkswagen that have unique oil standards for their cars. You need to read your owner's manual clearly to be sure you are using the proper oil for your application.

Some of these organizations, such as the API and ILSAC, have reduced friction modifier amounts in order to extend the life of catalytic converters and reduce pollution. These will increase wear but will be still within the "acceptable wear" range. Because of the increased wear and expense of licensing these oils some companies will not certify for API & ILSAC in order to achieve a higher level of performance. People with older engines that do not have roller cams find these oils especially attractive to maintain a reduced level of engine wear. AMSOIL only has 5 motor oils certified for the API & ILSAC for this reason (the four XL-7500 Branded motor oils and the semi-synthetic 15W-40 PCO). The rest of the nearly 30 synthetic motor oils are not certified in order to maintain the higher levels of friction modifier to maintain the enhanced level of performance necessary for their targeted market. In other words, the less expensive motor oils made by AMSOIL are API & ILSAC certified while the high end more expensive performance motor oils are not. One reason companies like AMSOIL and Mobil are at odds with the reduced friction modifier standards is they don't take into consideration the reduced volatility of PAO based motor oils which leads to much less pollution and thereby less problems for the catalytic converter. Even with the full wear preventing additives these oils do not produce the pollution of petroleum motor oils. For this reason AMSOIL has left the friction modifier levels high and skips certification for these higher performing motor oils. For more information read the Motor Oil Quality Progresses With Engine Technology (Good information on motor oil service ratings) and Why does Motor Oil Deteriorate?

BTW,you said you have been changing oil for 35yr,well i've been changing motor oil for over 42yrs on cars nut actually 46+ yrs if you count starting with changing oil on mowers, my GO Cart & dirt bike, so i have been at it a while too./LOL!!!!!

I also have quite a few yrs under my belt researching/testing oils along with corrisponding with oil engineers & oil chemists currently working at mult major oil mfgs and oil adidtive mfgs for all of us here in t/c. So i do have a bit more experience when it comes oils in general then your avg guy. I dont calim to be an expert but i have a decent amount of experience with oils in general that your avg guy doenst have which is where got the 1st hand experience to comment in this post wrenching cars for over 42yrs & and researching oils for t/c for mult yrs too.

Scott

SCOTT
1969 CHEVELLE SS396,ORIGINAL #'S MATCH,GOT IN 1978,(In 2001 rblt/bored original 396 .030 to 402)/M20/12BOLT/3:31'S
2002 MAXIMA (DAILY DRIVER/1 owner,GOT 3/2013 w-44k miles)
2009 HD ELECTRAGLIDE CLASSIC ULTRA (GOT 11/14 W-9,700 miles)
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post #14 of 17 (permalink) Old Jun 7th, 13, 11:38 PM
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Alan
 
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Re: question about oil

I stand corrected,

Thanx for the chemistry lesson, I still feel better changing my fluids on a regular basis.
On another spectrum of ignorance I had this school/tech/instructor who swore that his cars (mostly econo-box mopar 4 bangers) lasted much longer because he never changed any of the lubricants. His hypothesis was that the older lubricants got, the better they sealed because of building up a "varnish" (as he called it) which coated the surfaces and protected gaskets????? That may explain why he had a dozen identical models that he kept juggling around until they began self-grenading! Even the dull students grasped how sludge forms & plugs up oil galleries among other things..
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post #15 of 17 (permalink) Old Jun 8th, 13, 10:00 AM
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Re: question about oil

SAE 30,walmart in mine,,,per MJ.


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