The used heads will need to be cleaned, milled, and valve jobbed and we dont know it the springs and guides are good. Cost $350-400, plus what the welding and reshaping the chambers would cost. If you could do the chamber repair yourself it looks like a good deal, if not and if they need spring, guides and what ever else it could become no or little savings for used parts and screwing around.
Maybe get some better pictures of that bad chamber?? The less damaged chambers look like a simple .020" mill would fix 95% of that, leaving just a little hand work in the chamber..
As to the bad chamber, it doesn't look as damaged as you might think if you blow the pic up big....some of what looks like big dents on the intake side large quench pad is impacted aluminum from what was probably a busted hyper piston stuck on the surface there sticking up and hammered to the surface at gasket thickness, and possibly an .040-.050 mill cut would clear it all up, leaving just the hand work in the chambers which don't look very bad.
Doesn't look like welding is needed, valves and seats don't look hurt so maybe just a valve job, some milling, and some hand smoothing and equalizing in all the chambers would have you into a nice set of heads for $1200-1300 outlay, noting that they come with $320 worth of rocker arms with them.
Depends on ow much hand work you want to do....if you were willing to do the hand finishing, I'd say offer $800 and if he says no walk away. At that price, even if they prove too bad to fix, you've got the rockers and all the parts to fill a set of bare castings cheaply.
viability comes down to whether yo have to pay someone else to do all the work or not.
Those are pre-eliminator heads. If they came in 100% cnc (competition package) and a version with cnc chambers and partially cnc ports (street package).
If they are the street package they were advertised as flowing 262 @ .500.
I have a set of those old street 195cc heads. These are the heads I'm going to use on my 406, I had a new valve job and some porting work done on them
I have a set of 195 eliminators, I wish I got the angle plug. 1 header tube needs a good bit of beating, the angle plug would be easier to work with imo.
HI
How do u tell if the head is a early pre Eliminator style
2.02 valve ,,some early had larger valves ??? depending model
220 had shaft rockers only??? largest head at the time
Early pre Eliminator heads had oil drain issues --confirmed
Pre Elim heads had fatter valve stems
Street heads were not fully CNC
Comp heads were only a single CNC cut
AFR in there wisdom DOH!!!! used the same part no`s . Totally dumb
So how do you tell by looking at quickly ,,ring AFR
The damaged heads need flow confirmed ,2 valves and guides ,combustion chamber clean up , u can only skim /cut so much of the deck
HI How do u tell if the head is a early pre Eliminator style
2.02 valve ,,some early had larger valves ??? depending model
220 had shaft rockers only??? largest head at the time
Early pre Eliminator heads had oil drain issues --confirmed
Pre Elim heads had fatter valve stems
Street heads were not fully CNC
Comp heads were only a single CNC cut
AFR in there wisdom DOH!!!! used the same part no`s . Totally dumb
So how do you tell by looking at quickly ,,ring AFR
The damaged heads need flow confirmed ,2 valves and guides ,combustion chamber clean up , u can only skim /cut so much of the deck
The eliminators have AFR In big letters milled on the ends of the heads where the pre-eliminators had AFR in tiny letters on the ends. Also the pre-eliminators had a D insttead of a rectangular exhaust port. AFR eliminators have AFR cast into the side instead of just the letter A. Attached pic is a pre-eliminator AFR195 that I bought back in 1997 or 1998
HI
Aaron I would not consider either used pair AFR
A rubbish valve grind will cost flow and u d`ont no if they are on there last machine ie no metal left
400cu = 10.7 ;1 CR with 68cc
In regards the heads u want large chambers 75cc so u can machine them . The alternate is 65cc which on a 400 is 11.3:1 CR from memory .At this point gearing convertor cam selection and fuel rating become way more critical .
There is plenty of alloy on a 75cc to mill . This needs to be checked on any head brand . It depends on what cam you wanna run with and car setup .
Probably best to pass on the damaged heads. All that metal floating around likely damaged some valves and got into the guides trashing them. Not to mention what got pushed up into the intake manifold and swallowed up by other cylinders.
hi
Aaron what your short motor setup?? bore over size ? deck height? piston type?
Basically to run a 230+ cam at least 10.5:1 cr
The larger head 220 would like to have at least a 236+ to 240 + cam [ to exploit the available flow ] High ++10.8 CR
Engine vacuum becomes questionable over 230++ cam [eg 236/242 gives approx 10 inches ]
The convertor ,rear gear are all relative to the cam
The higher the compression the more sensitive the fuel rating
Consult your cam maker for good advice on suitable compression
Well, we havent started anything yet. The block is a virgin bore 2 bolt 400 sbc. Will bore to 4.155. Deck will probably be .015.
Looks like I might be using a Skip White rotating assembly. I can play with various combos to get 10.5 to 1 compression depending on how big a chamber on the heads I got with.
Im considering several cams with 230 to 235 @ .050 durations with lift in in the .530 to .565 area .
Hi
I used 1.65 rockers with a 230/236 HR around .552 Inlet lift // .564 to gain a bit more lift . Seems to give some vacuum 10-12 inches .This cam gives a flattish type tq cure . The most driveable cam . Next I would only change to 236/242 if I don`t like the way it drives [eg to quiet!!].
Similar to you Aaron I have set my rear gear to 3.6 with a 26.1 tire. The low gearing unloads the engine easily and gives me cam choice . Approx 2900rpm at 60mph .
What is your tire diameter ?? / size ?
As your build mine is very similar trying for a strong drivable street car . No Drag only or no "driving miss daisy" either LOL
HI Aaron
27 inch tire [255 60 15 ? ] 4.1 diff gives 3050 rpm at 60 mph . In theory eg calculators etc A lot of flexibility for camshaft. The video of 640 hp 400sbc Trick HQ runs 3300rpm at 60 mph confirmed 4.3 rear gear
Hi
Aaron
the lower the gearing [higher numbers ]
= the quicker the engine unloads
= the higher the rpm at 60mph .
Both above are used as a measuring stick for combo selection .Meaning camshaft and appropriate cylinder head plus cam = compression spec and fuel type .
If for example u were using an either stock or drag only setup the 4.1 gearing would be either to much or to little .
For a modified strong streeter about right .
HI
I mean every combo differs but to peak at 6400--6500rpm my2cents worth
=220cc heads ,242/248 HR cam [low travel lifters ? ] 11:1 CR,, maybe single plain
From what understand pk at 6000--6300 rpm
210-220 heads at the bigger end preferred
236--? HR cam
at least 10.5 CR
manifold either s/p or D/p
What do you think is realistic for say the 210 head with a 2.08 valve and flat tappet in the 230 to 235 area with 10.3 to 1 compression and dual plane?
That would be worth close to 500/500 I'd think. You thinking sft or hft? If you don't go HR I'd go sft & use lifters with the oil holes speced from Jones.
I have not looked at those heads. Those are great numbers at a nice rpm. I have seen a similiar combo.
I would like to lay a few things.
I have two heads now being looked at. The Brodix IK 200's still, best bang for the buck and the a set of practical brand new AFR 210's with 2.08 valve. Here is a link.
Aaron, the cam in my sons 406 is 262/269 @ .050. He has a muncie and 3.73's and a 275/60/15's all around. With the big flywheel leaving from 1st the throttle was a little tricky for me till I got use to it.
It was pretty embarrassing hitting the throttle boiling the tires and lifting then boiling again and him screaming at me! :nerd:
It took me a while to get use to the throttle with a rod and a pedal with the pivot on the floor.
You will have more gear and probably be a lot lighter so it could be easier.
I bet so. I just wondered with a cam over 230 at .050 would it be jerky in first. My Dad has a 228 at .050 in a 383 with a 4 speed and its can be jerky if you dont lightly step on the throttle when the clutch is all the way out.
Hi
The heads are 2.05 valve and 65 cc chambers .Single cut street/race cnc . The comp heads are double cut cnc and with bigger valve . Beaware his valve springs maybe to much for HR .
I can get the AFR 210's with stud girdle for 1750 and the Brodix IK 200 assembled for 1200. The Brodix will not be ported or anything. Here are the stats on the heads.
AFR 210 has a 2.08 valve and 65 cc head. The CSA is around 2.10. The flow numbers are:
.400-248
.500-285
.600-309
The Brodix IK 200 head has 2.02 valve and 64 cc's or 70 cc's. The CSA is unknown. The flow numbers are:
.400 -230
.500 - 253
.600 - 261
Im looking to get 475 to 500 horses out of this engine and around 500 torque all on a sbc 406 with 10.5 to 1 compression with a 6000 to 6500 target rpm zone.
My camshaft selection has been done as well. I have several to choose from. Some are hyd rollers, mechanical tappets, and hyd. tappet.
Here are links to the camshafts:
Here is a Luanti hyd roller. I would use 1.6 rockers though for .565/.565 lift.
Hi
Dual pattern cam eg 6 deg split will give
1/ more engine vacuum
2/ more time for exhaust to escape out of a street exhaust system
3/ slight torque reduction below peak in favour of the upper end hp and tq figures
eg bleed of some compression below peak tq
Need to confirm valve size with Afr for race head part no 1054. The face book guy mentions 2.05.
Who makes 6* degree splits? I dont think I have seen any.
I have already confirmed that it is a 2.08.
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