Chipped Guide - Chevelle Tech
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post #1 of 17 (permalink) Old Jan 20th, 20, 3:15 PM Thread Starter
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John
 
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Chipped Guide

I recently had a set of 409 heads shipped to me and one of the guides was chipped in shipping. I don't really feel comfortable running the guide as is. I also am unsure if the guides in 409 heads are similar to 454 big block heads in that the guides are pressed into an area that needs to be sealed off because of coolant. So, how would you fix this? Would you press a guide liner in? Or would you install a new cast iron guide?
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post #2 of 17 (permalink) Old Jan 20th, 20, 3:37 PM
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Re: Chipped Guide

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Milner View Post
I recently had a set of 409 heads shipped to me and one of the guides was chipped in shipping. I don't really feel comfortable running the guide as is. I also am unsure if the guides in 409 heads are similar to 454 big block heads in that the guides are pressed into an area that needs to be sealed off because of coolant. So, how would you fix this? Would you press a guide liner in? Or would you install a new cast iron guide?
I would core drill that guide and install a 1/2" od straight wall guide.
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post #3 of 17 (permalink) Old Jan 20th, 20, 4:10 PM
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Re: Chipped Guide

After seeing that they've been knurled or had inserts in them, I'd be having all the guides done on the same trip.
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post #4 of 17 (permalink) Old Jan 20th, 20, 11:12 PM
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Re: Chipped Guide

I agree and looking at the non broken guide in the photo it looks kind of tear dropped at the top like it has been worn out.
Could be just the photo.
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post #5 of 17 (permalink) Old Jan 21st, 20, 7:57 AM
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Re: Chipped Guide

Someone has put guides in the heads before. The oem guides are a lot larger od at the top. Plus if you look at the guide that isnt broken you can see the spiral groove in it for oiling. That guide is installed upside down. The part of the id that does not have grooves in it is supposed to be at the bottom.

They look like 1/2" od guides so it should be an easy deal for your machine shop to knock them out and put new ones in.
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post #6 of 17 (permalink) Old Jan 21st, 20, 9:44 AM
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Re: Chipped Guide

Yup, go all the way!

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post #7 of 17 (permalink) Old Jan 21st, 20, 9:50 AM
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Re: Chipped Guide

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillK View Post
Someone has put guides in the heads before. The oem guides are a lot larger od at the top. Plus if you look at the guide that isnt broken you can see the spiral groove in it for oiling. That guide is installed upside down. The part of the id that does not have grooves in it is supposed to be at the bottom.

They look like 1/2" od guides so it should be an easy deal for your machine shop to knock them out and put new ones in.
The original guides have been cut down for valve seals but you can see in both guides that a thick wall liner has been installed in the OEM guide. Probably for 11/32 valves. You could replace the liner but that isn't going to fix the broken guide.

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post #8 of 17 (permalink) Old Jan 21st, 20, 10:41 AM
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Re: Chipped Guide

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Originally Posted by steelcomp View Post
The original guides have been cut down for valve seals but you can see in both guides that a thick wall liner has been installed in the OEM guide

Your eyes must be better than mine ??? I think they have drilled out the entire guide and installed a 1/2" or 9/16 od guide. If you look where the one piece is broken off there does not seem to be any evidence of a liner of any type ?



I think what they used was what is in my picture below. If you look at the one pic you can see how the grooving in the guide stops about 1/4" from the end. That end is supposed to go down at the combustion chamber end of the guide.



It would be easier to tell with the head in front of us



Really doesn't matter, It can be fixed one way or the other
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post #9 of 17 (permalink) Old Jan 21st, 20, 1:39 PM
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Re: Chipped Guide

Hi Bill, those guides in that 409" head appear to be the originals, but machined for springs/seals?

The "missing" first couple threads along with that small circular "cut" at the top of the good guide are indicative of the knurling tool used, they were done using a "UTP" knurling set. They came with various size wheels, the wheels started the threaded section about a 1/4" down in the guides.

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. That damage is an easy fix for sure, over here we would simply use some .500" O.D. guides with a "step" already at the top to accept a .530" seal. Here's a shot of a few, they can be in "cast" (OEM style) or "bronze" if preferred by the customer!
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post #10 of 17 (permalink) Old Jan 21st, 20, 2:16 PM
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Re: Chipped Guide

......... showing your age Gary............

Gotta be like one of us old well seasoned guys to recognize UTP knurler notch

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post #11 of 17 (permalink) Old Jan 21st, 20, 2:27 PM
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Mr Bill
 
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Re: Chipped Guide

Quote:
Originally Posted by GOSFAST View Post
Hi Bill, those guides in that 409" head appear to be the originals, but machined for springs/seals?

The "missing" first couple threads along with that small circular "cut" at the top of the good guide are indicative of the knurling tool used, they were done using a "UTP" knurling set. They came with various size wheels, the wheels started the threaded section about a 1/4" down in the guides.

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. That damage is an easy fix for sure, over here we would simply use some .500" O.D. guides with a "step" already at the top to accept a .530" seal. Here's a shot of a few, they can be in "cast" (OEM style) or "bronze" if preferred by the customer!

Ok, Before my time for sure I have not used my knurling tools for at least 25 years What was the little notch supposed to be for ? Hold some oil ? Or was it part of the process ?

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post #12 of 17 (permalink) Old Jan 21st, 20, 3:19 PM
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Re: Chipped Guide

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfplace View Post
......... showing your age Gary............

Gotta be like one of us old well seasoned guys to recognize UTP knurler notch
Hi Mike, I guess so, I still have the set and recently turned downed 2X what I paid for it new, go figure! It was a "pain" to use sometimes, very time consuming (you would know if your familiar with the set?) but it would "save" guides that the 1-shot knurling tools couldn't do! I did use it recently to "re-do" some guides that were already done (per a customer request)! I had a tool "collector" in here recently, wanted that kit and a 1928 Rottler (portable) boring bar setup I have!

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillK View Post
Ok, Before my time for sure I have not used my knurling tools for at least 25 years What was the little notch supposed to be for ? Hold some oil ? Or was it part of the process ?
Hi Bill, drilling that small hole was the first step in rebuilding the guides! There were about 5 different size wheels, you'd start (generally) with the smallest wheel and continue up as needed! Like I said above, it was very time consuming compared to the 1-shot deals!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Bill, I may have shot of the kit somewhere, I just can't find it at the moment, can't find the kit either right now! Will check later!
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post #13 of 17 (permalink) Old Jan 21st, 20, 3:30 PM
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Re: Chipped Guide

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillK View Post
Ok, Before my time for sure I have not used my knurling tools for at least 25 years What was the little notch supposed to be for ? Hold some oil ? Or was it part of the process ?
Part of the process
Probably been about 60 years but from memory,,,
the notch was for the cutter to drop down into the guide after installing it on the knurl tool

There was a small insert/tool that fit the guide with an offset hole in it to drill that "notch"
You then removed this tool & used the knurl tooling
It was a tool with a single cutter on a slight angle that sat in a slot in the knurl tool driven by a drill & speed reducer & it cut the knurl

This is what the kit & head (knurl tool) looked like
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post #14 of 17 (permalink) Old Jan 21st, 20, 4:37 PM
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Re: Chipped Guide

There are guides that are straight cut along their outer diameters, they aren't as good as they are played out to be. Then, there are stepped guides, flange at the top of the guide, so they don't fall into the port if the machinist doesn't fit them correctly. Run the flange type guides, and do not let the machinist "set the guides in place" by knurling them after install. Knurling does two bad things, reduces the load bearing area of a guide, and makes a direct oil path down the guide that not even a good design guide seal can control.

One thing I used to do when I used the straight cut guides was to stop the new guide over bore in the head, to create a flange at the bottom of the guide hole, so the guide could not loosen and slide into the port.
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post #15 of 17 (permalink) Old Jan 21st, 20, 7:06 PM
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Re: Chipped Guide

After looking at a bunch of pictures of 409 heads, those appear to still be the original guides, uncut and a 348 head, not a 409. They're not like a typical BB Chev that we're used to. They have been drilled and liners or "false guides" installed. You can see that clearly in the OP's pics. The "right" way to repair that head would be to cut the top of the existing guide down flush with the spring pocket. Then core drill and ream to install a stepped guide with a top that was the same size as the other guides (which are integral to the head and look to be about 5/8" dia.). That guide could be iron and reamed/honed to size or it could be steel and drilled/reamed for a liner. The rest of the guides appear to have inserts that could be removed and replaced carefully as to not crack the tops of the integral guide tops.

From "The Ultimate 348-409 guide" :


Quote:
The stock 348 (right) heads carried 1.94/1.66- inch valves while the standard passenger 409 heads carried 2.06/1.72- inch valves. The high- performance heads contained 2.19/1.72-inch valves, and the growth in valve size required thicker, heavier, valvesprings to support the new cams with more lift and duration.
https://www.chevydiy.com/ultimate-34...ylinder-heads/

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