Using massive torque to improve 60' times - Chevelle Tech
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post #1 of 120 (permalink) Old Oct 23rd, 19, 8:12 PM Thread Starter
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Using massive torque to improve 60' times

As we head into the winter season, many are thinking about their progress this year and setting winter goals.

I'm no different.

To review, this year:
*Recovered from an Achilles tendon tear (that slowed me down all summer long)
*Converted my '70 MC from 350 to 454
*Improved the 1/4 mile time from 15.6 @ 89 (350) to 14.16 @ 104.5 (454 with open rear, 2.25" exhaus) to 13.05 @ 107.5 (locking the rear and adding 3" exhaust)
*Improved 60' times from 2.33 (454, open rear, 2.25" exhaust) to 1.99 (locked rear, 3" exhaust)

This is at 4060 lbs, 2.56 gear, and a stock converter.

My goals with the car are pretty simple; a street cruiser which hustles down the quarter mile. While I'd like to see 11.5 to 12.0, if I don't make it, I don't make it. More important to me, the car should look and act relatively stock. I don't want fat tires out back, and I really would like to run low-buck, hard radials, such as Cooper Cobras or similar. I won't run a cowl hood, nor have extravagant gauges, etc. This car will remain a bench seat, column shift granny car during this transition.

I did install headers, and while that's a step I didn't really want to take, it sounds really nice so some sacrifices will be made. Anyhow, that brings me to the winter projects; short term, and long term goals.

Short term, I will slide in a 10" Hughes converter, temporarily, when I change the front transmission seal. This will undoubtedly help the 60' time, how much to be determined. To conclude the short term goals, I have a second 12 bolt with a used 4 Series carrier...I plan to pick up a thin set 3.73, and temporarily swap in the housing and see what improvements hide behind a gear change.

All this leads up to my long term goals and questions...I truly believe running a stock converter and 2.56 gears, will give the best chance to apply the big block torque successfully with hard radial tires.

If I slip a similar cam to what I have now (Summit CK-1303, 238/248, .540" lift) into an 10.25:1 oval port 496, do you think this will improve my 60' time .2-.3, even if I revert to the stock converter and 2.56 gears, over my 9.6:1 467 I have today?

If not, what kind of cubic inches/cam do you think I need to power through the stock stall and tall gears to achieve 11.5-12.0 1/4 mile times given the prescribed design limitations. In the end, I'm looking for Buick/Olds type torque and performance...grunt that will doesn't care to which it is hooked.

What do you all think?

1981 Malibu wagon
406/350/4.10
Best ET NA 12.20 @ 110
Best ET w/N2O 11.47 @ 117
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post #2 of 120 (permalink) Old Oct 23rd, 19, 8:27 PM
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post #3 of 120 (permalink) Old Oct 23rd, 19, 10:19 PM
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Thumbs up Re: Using massive torque to improve 60' times

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragginwagon467 View Post
Photo of the car, for reference.
Nice

Jim

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421 Profilers ported by Eric Weingartner, Straub HR 3200 conv. from Jake 200-4r w/ 3.73's
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67 Imp.SS for the wife 275 hp 327-TH350
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post #4 of 120 (permalink) Old Oct 23rd, 19, 11:14 PM
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Re: Using massive torque to improve 60' times

Your 60ft. is mostly how the car launches. Yes if you put a higher stall it will help the 60ft. another thing that will help is putting in a cam on a 110 or narrower LCA, that's because it builds low end torque. My car right now has a 1.55 to 1.60 60ft. and a lot depends on the weather and if the car hooks, I have run 1.48 60ft times with my 406 years ago with the car just as it is why? because it make more torque. Another thing to think of is tires, radial slicks or drag radials. You are on the right track with your car and I would not over gear the car as I think mine is right now. Your car is fantastic for having 2.56 gears you should be commended for making that big car running those times. That 4000 lb. car would most likely run easy 12's if you were to cut about 10 duration and narrow the LCA on the cam you have now as again, it will make more torque. You are right, a big old 496 will make a ton of it.
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post #5 of 120 (permalink) Old Oct 24th, 19, 2:01 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Using massive torque to improve 60' times

Quote:
Originally Posted by 77 cruiser View Post
Nice
Thank you. It's not my wagon (which isn't nice), but it will do lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by 68Chevele View Post
Your 60ft. is mostly how the car launches. Yes if you put a higher stall it will help the 60ft. another thing that will help is putting in a cam on a 110 or narrower LCA, that's because it builds low end torque. My car right now has a 1.55 to 1.60 60ft. and a lot depends on the weather and if the car hooks, I have run 1.48 60ft times with my 406 years ago with the car just as it is why? because it make more torque. Another thing to think of is tires, radial slicks or drag radials. You are on the right track with your car and I would not over gear the car as I think mine is right now. Your car is fantastic for having 2.56 gears you should be commended for making that big car running those times. That 4000 lb. car would most likely run easy 12's if you were to cut about 10 duration and narrow the LCA on the cam you have now as again, it will make more torque. You are right, a big old 496 will make a ton of it.
My 406 in my wagon would 60' 1.71 off the hose, using the same 10" Hughes converter I plan on trying in the MC. Using the same 10" with this same 467 (albeit with manifolds) in the wagon, the difference was astounding. I found the 467 hit the tires harder than the 406 on spray for the first 5 feet, then you can feel yourself come out of your seat due to lack of acceleration. My conclusion is, the 467 indeed makes more torque initially, then lacks the horsepower to keep you in the seat...hence only covering the first 60' in 1.84 seconds, even though the first 5 feet felt faster.

Anyhow, it's interesting to note, the 467 in the Monte Carlo, with stock converter and 2.56 gears, feels more like my 406 off the spray in regards to initial thrust, followed up by a steady pressure in the seat. What I'm saying is, there is not that huge spike in power, followed quickly by noticeable disappointment. Don't get me wrong, this 238/248 cam certainly exhibits a noticeable powerband which starts about 30-35 mph and continues up to about 65 mph (shift at 70 mph), but you don't fall out of the seat like I did in the wagon with the 10" Hughes converter and 3.42 gears. The engine certainly felt over-converter'd in the wagon and I certainly believe it will feel similar with the 2.56 gears too.

I believe you are right, a smaller cam would help 60' times with stock gear, it would have more torque, and hit the lower-rpm powerband quicker. That's why I believe the cam I have now, on a 114, would be better matched to the 496. Only running street tires, I'm hesitant of dropping down to a 106-108 for fear the mid-range torque (especially on a cam which is already relatively small) might spin the tires at the 60' due to high torque production.

I'm looking for steady, smooth acceleration that uses good torque to keep pinning you back in the seat the faster you rev the engine. Keeping in mind, with the 2.56 gears, I need to have enough top end charge to satisfy a car typically geared with 3.73s in order to avoid shifting to drive.

My question and curiosity is, will a 496 with the 238/248 cam make enough torque to drop .2-.3 tenths off the 60' with the stock converter and breath well enough to run out the backdoor?
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1981 Malibu wagon
406/350/4.10
Best ET NA 12.20 @ 110
Best ET w/N2O 11.47 @ 117
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post #6 of 120 (permalink) Old Oct 24th, 19, 5:19 AM
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Re: Using massive torque to improve 60' times

2.56 = BAD. get rid of that first. That's not only not in the ballpark, it's not even iin the right county. 3.73 is where you want to go.
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post #7 of 120 (permalink) Old Oct 24th, 19, 8:06 AM
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Re: Using massive torque to improve 60' times

A simple pump gas 496 with stock 990 casting rectangular port heads,RPM Air Gap/3310 Holley and 238/[email protected] Summit cam will make enough steam to easily get you into the high 11's with a 3.08 gear and good converter.


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post #8 of 120 (permalink) Old Oct 24th, 19, 10:10 AM
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Re: Using massive torque to improve 60' times

3.73 gear and front trans seal .
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post #9 of 120 (permalink) Old Oct 24th, 19, 10:29 AM
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Re: Using massive torque to improve 60' times

Quote:
Originally Posted by dragginwagon406 View Post
Thank you. It's not my wagon (which isn't nice), but it will do lol



My 406 in my wagon would 60' 1.71 off the hose, using the same 10" Hughes converter I plan on trying in the MC. Using the same 10" with this same 467 (albeit with manifolds) in the wagon, the difference was astounding. I found the 467 hit the tires harder than the 406 on spray for the first 5 feet, then you can feel yourself come out of your seat due to lack of acceleration. My conclusion is, the 467 indeed makes more torque initially, then lacks the horsepower to keep you in the seat...hence only covering the first 60' in 1.84 seconds, even though the first 5 feet felt faster.

Anyhow, it's interesting to note, the 467 in the Monte Carlo, with stock converter and 2.56 gears, feels more like my 406 off the spray in regards to initial thrust, followed up by a steady pressure in the seat. What I'm saying is, there is not that huge spike in power, followed quickly by noticeable disappointment. Don't get me wrong, this 238/248 cam certainly exhibits a noticeable powerband which starts about 30-35 mph and continues up to about 65 mph (shift at 70 mph), but you don't fall out of the seat like I did in the wagon with the 10" Hughes converter and 3.42 gears. The engine certainly felt over-converter'd in the wagon and I certainly believe it will feel similar with the 2.56 gears too.

I believe you are right, a smaller cam would help 60' times with stock gear, it would have more torque, and hit the lower-rpm powerband quicker. That's why I believe the cam I have now, on a 114, would be better matched to the 496. Only running street tires, I'm hesitant of dropping down to a 106-108 for fear the mid-range torque (especially on a cam which is already relatively small) might spin the tires at the 60' due to high torque production.

I'm looking for steady, smooth acceleration that uses good torque to keep pinning you back in the seat the faster you rev the engine. Keeping in mind, with the 2.56 gears, I need to have enough top end charge to satisfy a car typically geared with 3.73s in order to avoid shifting to drive.

My question and curiosity is, will a 496 with the 238/248 cam make enough torque to drop .2-.3 tenths off the 60' with the stock converter and breath well enough to run out the backdoor?
While anything is possible I personally do not think that even with a 496 you will drop .2-.3 tenths off with that stock converter. I have built may a big block in my time and the most gains were with a converter change. I would only put a 11" 2800 stall in that MC because it's such a heavy car and that alone will make the converter flash higher. A better deal would be to get a fully built 700R4 as it has a 3.06 low gear to get the car moving and that would help the 60ft. times much better that a turbo 400. You will need a tighter LCA cam to get the most low end torque out of that 496.
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post #10 of 120 (permalink) Old Oct 24th, 19, 1:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Mobley View Post
2.56 = BAD. get rid of that first. That's not only not in the ballpark, it's not even in the right county. 3.73 is where you want to go.
2.56 might not be in the right county, but when I jump on the turnpike, I’ll get to the next county quicker. I plan on attending several Super Chevy/Blue Suede cruises and want to drive it there. These events could be up to 6-8 hours away, that’s why I’m leaning toward sacrificing some ET for the sake of highway manners.


Quote:
Originally Posted by mr 4 speed View Post
A simple pump gas 496 with stock 990 casting rectangular port heads,RPM Air Gap/3310 Holley and 238/[email protected] Summit cam will make enough steam to easily get you into the high 11's with a 3.08 gear and good converter.
That’s fantastic news. I take it that a set of nicely prepared 049 casting heads will run about the same, even with 2.56 lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by blasttime View Post
3.73 gear and front trans seal .
Retaining stock stall with 3.73 just might hook up properly and pull nicely. It’s tough to stay with 3.73 when you’ve cruised down the highway with traffic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 68Chevele View Post
While anything is possible I personally do not think that even with a 496 you will drop .2-.3 tenths off with that stock converter. I have built may a big block in my time and the most gains were with a converter change. I would only put a 11" 2800 stall in that MC because it's such a heavy car and that alone will make the converter flash higher. A better deal would be to get a fully built 700R4 as it has a 3.06 low gear to get the car moving and that would help the 60ft. times much better that a turbo 400. You will need a tighter LCA cam to get the most low end torque out of that 496.
Noted about the 11” converter, I’d only try the 10” since I already have it. Maybe I’ll re-gear without the stall first, then add the stall after.

Definitely not a fan of the 3.06 gear in the 700R4, especially since I plan on relatively mild cams and a bigger stroker down the road.

I think the tighter LCA would be more pertinent for a combination without large inherent torque production. I’ll have good compression and a reasonable cam, torque shouldn’t be a problem.

If a 496 won’t bring the 60’ down with the stock converter and 2.56 gears, I might follow through with a 525 or larger bullet lol

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post #11 of 120 (permalink) Old Oct 24th, 19, 1:17 PM
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Re: Using massive torque to improve 60' times

Throw in a Gear Vendors unit behind your TH400 to get you down the highway with an OD and go with the 3.73 gears.

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post #12 of 120 (permalink) Old Oct 24th, 19, 1:22 PM
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Re: Using massive torque to improve 60' times

LOL...I hope you never feel the need to find the max top speed with 2.56 and any big block,( especially 496 and larger) !!!!!

T K
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post #13 of 120 (permalink) Old Oct 24th, 19, 1:25 PM
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Re: Using massive torque to improve 60' times

I bet a set of AFR 265's and a custom cam can get your goals with the current bullet in the chamber !
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post #14 of 120 (permalink) Old Oct 24th, 19, 1:47 PM
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Originally Posted by lucifershammer View Post
Throw in a Gear Vendors unit behind your TH400 to get you down the highway with an OD and go with the 3.73 gears.

Unnecessary complexity. I’ll settle for what it runs, stroke it more if left yearning for more.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 68post View Post
LOL...I hope you never feel the need to find the max top speed with 2.56 and any big block,( especially 496 and larger) !!!!!
I don’t think that would happen, but it’s nice cruising down the highway with a nice, tight stall and highway gears.

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Originally Posted by 68post View Post
I bet a set of AFR 265's and a custom cam can get your goals with the current bullet in the chamber !
I bet it would, but I want the engine to look stock, very similar to Gene’s MJ engine.
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post #15 of 120 (permalink) Old Oct 24th, 19, 7:03 PM
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Re: Using massive torque to improve 60' times

Here is exactly what I would do if staying with the 2.56 gear. Toss in an 11" 2500 stall converter, put in that 496 but then I would get a set of 236 peanut port heads send them to Vortecpro and have him work his magic on them. I am willing to bet that with a 10 to 1 496 your MC will run 12 flat @112mph with them there 2.56 gears.
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