Flat tappet cams - Page 5 - Chevelle Tech
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post #61 of 129 (permalink) Old Oct 1st, 19, 9:30 PM
 
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Re: Flat tappet cams

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Originally Posted by cuisinartvette View Post
So the "delcos" out there now are knockoffs is what youre saying?

GM was a fool to stop making those they could still sell a ton. Lots of these older parts are becoming popular again.
Lots of ls stuff is being discontinued also. Better grab some ls7 lifters in case
The market in the after market is not large. When I had a hard number flat tappets lifter sales were around 800K a year. Now to put that in perspective the Delphi plant would work a day and half to produce a years supply. Not cost effective. I once thought about getting a friend that works for the company that owns the technology for plastic manifolds.....Montiplast...to make manifolds for the performance industry. When asked about a years total I told him around 5000 intakes......He laughed and said hell a short run in OE is 50K units and considered a special project. The aftermarket compared to OE is a fly on the wall.
427L88 and streetperf like this.

Chris Straub
Mfg Performance Parts

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Why is it we never have time or money to do it the right way in the beginning but we always have time and money to do it over again?
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post #62 of 129 (permalink) Old Oct 1st, 19, 9:39 PM
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jeff
 
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Re: Flat tappet cams

14,000 miles on a flat tappet is not that much really Yea I know that is a Honkin long duration cam.
It could feel tired because of valve springs have lost some pressures.
Timing chain is a little looser. Ring seal could be down a bit.
Or valve sealing could be a little off.

many things it could beI would keep lifters in order if I ever pulled the cam and stick them back in the same hole they came out of after freshening the deal up.
Less than 2 years I put 70,000 on a flat tappet in my 350" and it seen more than 7000 rpm daily.
Of course it was only 235 duration at .050.
Lot less spring pressures than what the Z90 needs to take full advantage.
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post #63 of 129 (permalink) Old Oct 1st, 19, 10:15 PM
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Bob
 
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Re: Flat tappet cams

Thanks Jeff for your response, I did a compression test and all the cylinders our between 180 and 184 except cylinder 4 which is 150, maybe I should just have the heads looked at ?
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post #64 of 129 (permalink) Old Oct 1st, 19, 10:44 PM
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Re: Flat tappet cams

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Originally Posted by rjt427 View Post
Thanks Jeff for your response, I did a compression test and all the cylinders our between 180 and 184 except cylinder 4 which is 150, maybe I should just have the heads looked at ?



I had a 350" SBC in a 78 Nova that would outrun my V65 magna. The magna ran 11.51 ET with my 200 lb butt on it.
I had my buddy race it and he was 145 pounds and I was running against him.
I could not beat the bike.
I knew I could no matter what.
Car felt strong but not exactly perfect.
I did a compression test and i also had 1 cylinder that was down, it was down about 50 psi.
I had a bad intake valve guide on 1 cylinder.
Ruined the valve and the seat.
I had 80 hours in each head in porting time 186 castings.
No room for a seat insert..I was running 1.94" intake valves..I had it cut for a 2.02 valve and new guide installed and clearanced correctly. I was back in the game after that.


Could be one little thing holding your engine back.
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post #65 of 129 (permalink) Old Oct 2nd, 19, 12:15 AM
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jerry
 
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Re: Flat tappet cams

Something not discussed often is the extreme impact a cam replacement has on a restored car, and if you've flattened a lobe, pulling an engine. We go through painstaking efforts to get every aspect of the build just perfect and build the car around the engine, just like gm did. So, it's not just who you believe, it's getting it RIGHT!
If BP's formula is no longer used, it needs to be validated and exposed.
Not going to just take someone's word for it, so I had a long discussion with a tech from PennGrade and he assured me it's the same formula, same as Kendall developed and same as BradPenn sold for decades.
They sent me this memo as this has been discussed with virtually all their distributers with good reason. I also understand that some execs within PG and Driven have swapped places, and have both shared employees from ARG refineries. It gets even thicker, but I'll save that one.
Here's the memo he shared.....

From: Nick Dixon <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2019 7:55 AM
To: Nick Dixon <[email protected]>
Subject: PennGrade 1® The Original Green Oil
Importance: High



Dear Distributor,



Over the past few months we have fielded a number of questions from our loyal customer base whether the PennGrade 1® “The Original Green Oil” has changed? The answer is NO! In the months following D-A Lubricant Company’s acquisition of the Brad Penn Finished Lubes division from American Refining Group (ARG), D-A decided to rename The Original Green Oil product and redesign the quart bottle for marketing purposes and product visibility.



With the product’s new name and appearance, various customers, distributors and competitors questioned whether or not there was a change to the PennGrade 1 product. When you are a leader the copycats and competitors are always looking for opportunities to gain market share.



We have put out a paper which can be found at https://penngrade.com/performance-pr...nal-green-oil/. The purpose of this paper is to let our multi-generational, loyal customers know PennGrade 1® Partial Synthetic High-Performance Oil SAE 20W-50 — The Original Green Oil — as well as the entire PennGrade 1® product line is the same product today as it has been for decades.



It continues to use the unique Pennsylvania Grade base oil cut and the specially-selected high-zinc, high-phosphorus formulation that’s been known and trusted by high-performance engine builders and vehicle owners for decades. While the name and look have changed, the performance you have come to know, and trust has not. The Original Green Oil is still alive and thriving. And our tests prove it.



I strongly encourage you to send a copy of this paper to all your PennGrade 1® Dealers and share with all of your customers. If you or any of your dealers have questions please do not hesitate to contact us. We very much appreciate your confidence in our company and our products, as well as the business you have placed with us.



Sincerely,



Nick Dixon
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post #66 of 129 (permalink) Old Oct 2nd, 19, 1:02 AM
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Tony
 
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Re: Flat tappet cams

So....to be fair.....how many BBC owners have converted to roller.....only to have their roller lifters (Morel or otherwise) fail?
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'69 Malibu 383/TCI TH350/8.2 3.36 Eaton Posi. Street Edge 10" 2800, E-Tec 170s, Custom Mike Jones HR Cam, RPM Air-Gap, StreetAvenger 770, Pertronix HEI, Hedman 1 5/8" Headers, Moser Axles, PMT 1320R Kit. [email protected] 111 MPH, 1.6865 60 ft, Nitto 555
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post #67 of 129 (permalink) Old Oct 2nd, 19, 6:08 AM
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Bob
 
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Re: Flat tappet cams

Good question
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post #68 of 129 (permalink) Old Oct 2nd, 19, 7:52 AM
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Gene
 
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Re: Flat tappet cams

It would tick me off. I had twenty years of fun on solid flat tappets in my old 427. This new Mark Jones engine best not waste a roller lifter.

Gene
ACES 3112/Team Chevelle Gold #62
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post #69 of 129 (permalink) Old Oct 2nd, 19, 11:16 AM
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Re: Flat tappet cams

The single best investment one can make in a new engine, especially for the street, is a Hyd Roller with the best Lifters made.

'67 Chevelle Malibu, Catalina Blue, 540 inch Rat, Air Flow Reasearch 290 CNC Heads heads, Custom Hyd Roller, .675 lift, 234, 244 at .050, Lemons Headers, Holley Multiport Fuel Injection, TCI 6X 6Speed Automatic, 12 bolt Posi Eaton TruTrac, 3:31 Richmond Gears, front and rear power disc brakes, Global West Suspension, etc.

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post #70 of 129 (permalink) Old Oct 2nd, 19, 1:07 PM
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Tony
 
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Re: Flat tappet cams

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Originally Posted by 427L88 View Post
It would tick me off. I had twenty years of fun on solid flat tappets in my old 427. This new Mark Jones engine best not waste a roller lifter.
It likely won't, Gene.

I've been watching this for a while now and have observed the following trend, although I admit that I do NOT have the sample size or enough evidence to consider this remotely scientific:

Guys that have their motors built professionally by folks like Mark Jones, Foxwell, Wolfplace, and numerous other high end/reputable builders that frequent this site have enjoyed excellent success and longevity with modern, roller lifters in their BBC.

Guys putting their motors together themselves or using "local" builders have had miserable failure rates with these same parts.

My two part theory is that: 1) good machine work is getting harder and harder to find and 2) the lifters and factory blocks on BBC motors pose unique challenges in measuring exactly how long EACH pushrod should be....and whether your lifter bores are good/centered.

My theory is that it's now almost impossible to put these motors together in our garages like we used to. (Part of this absolutely has to do with the After Market's reliance on the Suppliers building things to OEM speck and that the parts we use are no longer OEM....so the after market quality just isn't there. See today's crankshafts as an example.)

Now, for some perspective: it's never been easier to make tremendous power and be completely streetable at the same time.

Today, you can run high 11s in a mild 383 SBC that is totally civil and fun to drive on the street. You can run 10.90s or better in the same type of street car with a 427 or bigger BBC that gets driven to the track. You can go even faster so long as you can hook up.

I'm not saying that the Game is necessarily any better or worse. But the Game has changed, IMHO.

'69 Malibu 383/TCI TH350/8.2 3.36 Eaton Posi. Street Edge 10" 2800, E-Tec 170s, Custom Mike Jones HR Cam, RPM Air-Gap, StreetAvenger 770, Pertronix HEI, Hedman 1 5/8" Headers, Moser Axles, PMT 1320R Kit. [email protected] 111 MPH, 1.6865 60 ft, Nitto 555
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post #71 of 129 (permalink) Old Oct 2nd, 19, 1:20 PM
 
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Re: Flat tappet cams

Quote:
Originally Posted by blue_69_malibu View Post
It likely won't, Gene.

I've been watching this for a while now and have observed the following trend, although I admit that I do NOT have the sample size or enough evidence to consider this remotely scientific:

Guys that have their motors built professionally by folks like Mark Jones, Foxwell, Wolfplace, and numerous other high end/reputable builders that frequent this site have enjoyed excellent success and longevity with modern, roller lifters in their BBC.

Guys putting their motors together themselves or using "local" builders have had miserable failure rates with these same parts.

My two part theory is that: 1) good machine work is getting harder and harder to find and 2) the lifters and factory blocks on BBC motors pose unique challenges in measuring exactly how long EACH pushrod should be....and whether your lifter bores are good/centered.

My theory is that it's now almost impossible to put these motors together in our garages like we used to. (Part of this absolutely has to do with the After Market's reliance on the Suppliers building things to OEM speck and that the parts we use are no longer OEM....so the after market quality just isn't there. See today's crankshafts as an example.)

Now, for some perspective: it's never been easier to make tremendous power and be completely streetable at the same time.

Today, you can run high 11s in a mild 383 SBC that is totally civil and fun to drive on the street. You can run 10.90s or better in the same type of street car with a 427 or bigger BBC that gets driven to the track. You can go even faster so long as you can hook up.

I'm not saying that the Game is necessarily any better or worse. But the Game has changed, IMHO.
Many valid points in your post. I explain to people all the time, if you want to build a deck, you can go to Lowes and spend $1500 on the proper tools to build it. If you want to build an engine correctly and be able to check things...your going to spend $250K for tools.

Chris Straub
Mfg Performance Parts

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Why is it we never have time or money to do it the right way in the beginning but we always have time and money to do it over again?
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post #72 of 129 (permalink) Old Oct 2nd, 19, 1:45 PM
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Scott Foxwell
 
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Re: Flat tappet cams

Quote:
Originally Posted by blue_69_malibu View Post
It likely won't, Gene.

I've been watching this for a while now and have observed the following trend, although I admit that I do NOT have the sample size or enough evidence to consider this remotely scientific:

Guys that have their motors built professionally by folks like Mark Jones, Foxwell, Wolfplace, and numerous other high end/reputable builders that frequent this site have enjoyed excellent success and longevity with modern, roller lifters in their BBC.

Guys putting their motors together themselves or using "local" builders have had miserable failure rates with these same parts.

My two part theory is that: 1) good machine work is getting harder and harder to find and 2) the lifters and factory blocks on BBC motors pose unique challenges in measuring exactly how long EACH pushrod should be....and whether your lifter bores are good/centered.

My theory is that it's now almost impossible to put these motors together in our garages like we used to. (Part of this absolutely has to do with the After Market's reliance on the Suppliers building things to OEM speck and that the parts we use are no longer OEM....so the after market quality just isn't there. See today's crankshafts as an example.)

Now, for some perspective: it's never been easier to make tremendous power and be completely streetable at the same time.

Today, you can run high 11s in a mild 383 SBC that is totally civil and fun to drive on the street. You can run 10.90s or better in the same type of street car with a 427 or bigger BBC that gets driven to the track. You can go even faster so long as you can hook up.

I'm not saying that the Game is necessarily any better or worse. But the Game has changed, IMHO.
I think you hit on one of the things I see that has changed; I'm 61 and have been doing this since I was a kid. The biggest change I see these days is the power (we) can make as amateur/weekend warrior builders because of the parts we have available. What was once a professional, hard core race engine is now something that's available to just about anyone over the internet. However, and this is a big however, the effort, knowledge and attention to detail to put those parts together successfully hasn't changed...much. Of course we've learned things over the years and technology has changed a lot...but the details of building a good running, roller valve train, race-level performance engine are still the same and the professionals know that. It's all low hanging fruit. Fundamentals. Cleanliness is absolutely paramount! You're not going to build too many good running hyd roller engines that will not give you issues in a filthy garage with parts thrown all over with half ass tools and half a case of beer in you. Understanding what you're doing and why, not just following directions. Google is your friend, but it also takes away the need for understanding. That's why I did my rocker geometry video like I did...hopefully to help with some understanding, not just follow directions. Being organized. Wow, that's a big one and I can tell you I'm not the best at that but I like to give that impression with my build threads because it IS IMPORTANT. Patience. You can't force things to work and you can't force parts to go together. My dad taught me something a LONG time ago...use your finger tips, and if doesn't go, don't force it. Clearances and tolerances. You have to be able to check these yourself and confirm them accurately with upper level builds. There just isn't any way around it and again, you have to understand what you're looking for and trying to accomplish.
I could go on with this but I guess what I'm trying to get at is to reiterate what you said about putting motors together in our garage like we used to. We're not trying to put together motors like we used to put together. A lot of this is "big boy" stuff and takes more knowledge and ability than most guys honestly have. I don't mean that to offend anyone, it's just a fact of life.

FOXWELL MOTORSPORTS
Straub Technologies

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post #73 of 129 (permalink) Old Oct 2nd, 19, 1:54 PM
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Re: Flat tappet cams

x2 buying parts is just the beginning, so much more to doing it right, takes time and screwing things up/paying twice to learn.
I Cringe when I see people spouting this buy/hack mentality it simply dont work. Hey but its cheap...

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post #74 of 129 (permalink) Old Oct 2nd, 19, 2:24 PM
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Re: Flat tappet cams

Buying parts and going to town in your garage is a learning experience.
Never fear learning. Ask questions and go for it. I enjoyed flat tappets all my life. In the correct application I'd still use them.

'66 SS Chevelle

bored small big block
performance to be determined.
91 octane special.
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post #75 of 129 (permalink) Old Oct 2nd, 19, 2:50 PM
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Re: Flat tappet cams

Love the simplicity of them. For a mild driver if I felt they werent cheap junk Id run one...not every build has to be max effort just fun. Guess things have changed
I dont want an LS or roller everything

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