Clearing the air on lifter noise - Page 4 - Chevelle Tech
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post #46 of 70 (permalink) Old Dec 17th, 18, 6:02 PM
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Re: Clearing the air on lifter noise

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Originally Posted by steelcomp View Post
That's all great Carl. None of that really shows anything about going from a 50wt to a recommended wt oil. I would guess that switching from brand A to brand B within a given range of viscosity may not show a of of difference but the person you told "thinner oil does not make a difference" said he was using 50wt oil. Morel strictly recommends what wt oil to use in their lifters. If someone is using a 50wt oil and they have a noise issue, and aren't willing to use the RECOMMENDED oil, then there's no sense in complaining, but don't tell them it won't make a difference.
No one has really identified the noise as a "problem". Just something they don't like.
No one has really identified the noise, period.
Some change rockers and the noise goes away.
Some change oils and the noise goes away.
Some change preload and the noise goes away.
Some try everything and the noise is still there, but at that point, I wonder what noise they're actually talking about.
Some replace lifters an the noise goes away and blame the old lifters.
Some have had noisy brand X lifters, switched to Morels and the noise went away.
What was the difference?
I think there's a lot to learn and a lot to know about hyd rollers that's not being discussed here.
FIRST question when there is a complaint about HR lifters is always what oil are you using?
If you're not using an oil that's compatible with Morel lifters, then don't complain about the lifters. The rest of the build details aren't going to matter.
The lifters shouldn't dictate your oil. From my experience, just about any level of build these days doesn't need an oil any heavier than would be compatible with the Morel HR's. 50wt oil is old school. There's just no reason to run it in other than extreme applications. I ran straight 10w40 Driven in a 2600+hp blown alky motor @ 7500rpm. Some really high end Outlaw sprint guys need heavy oil because of the temps they see. Some really high end blown marine deals need heavy oil for extended runs @ WOT and high oil temps. I get that, but these days, just about anything making even upwards of 1K HP doesn't need any more than a 30wt oil so there's no need to say, "When I build an engine I don't want the lifter to dictate what oil I have to use".
The first two links say they ran the recommended oil, I ran 0/30 weight no change in noise and every combination for valve adjustment and no difference in noise.

It will be very interesting to see what Randy comes up with for a problem and whether its an oil problem or not.

The cam company I deal with will not push the 4602 or 4603 lifters anymore but have been selling the street performance version with no noise issues.
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post #47 of 70 (permalink) Old Dec 17th, 18, 7:51 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Clearing the air on lifter noise

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Originally Posted by Roadknee View Post
Jeff:

What fuel pump are you running? Most of what I see available today with enough capacity to supply a BBC also puts out around 8 psi, which is high for a Qjet.

What is idle vacuum and rpm in gear?

Here's a link to a vid of my BBC C30 idling in park. https://www.chevelles.com/forums/13-...ax-17769s.html How does yours compare?
I'm using the Edelbrock Performer RPM mech pump, #1722. It's rated at 110GPH and preset max pressure @ 6psi. Also no regulator either. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-1722/overview/

I have the idle set at 700 rpm's in gear not sure what the vacuum is in gear but in park @850 rpm's the vacuum is between 18-20".

Jeff
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post #48 of 70 (permalink) Old Dec 18th, 18, 12:51 PM
 
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Re: Clearing the air on lifter noise

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Originally Posted by 72BB Nova View Post
I want to stress that there be no insults or bashing in this thread, please. In a thread that Chris Straub posted a few days ago about a customer sending him an email on Morel lifter noise, that customer is me. I want to clarify a few things and tell my side of what happened.
First, the truck had 57,200 original miles on it when I lost #4 exhaust lobe on the HFT cam. I caught it in time and from what I could see it didn't send anything through the engine. I've been using Penn Grade 10w30 oil with a Wix filter, changing every 3000 miles. When I bought the truck in March of 2016, it had 50,064 miles.
Second, the cam Chris posted is not correct. Honest mistake. The specs on my cam is 210/[email protected] and .553in/.481ex lift on a 109LS. I bought everything from Chris, cam, lifters, push rods, springs, retainers and keepers. The lifters that I bought are the Street Performance lifters, part #5374, not the 4603 lifters that I've read some much about. I did everything he said to do, correct oil, Driven Break In Oil 5w30, soaked the lifters for about 2 days in the break in oil, set my installed spring heights to 1.900". When I started it for the first time it scared the crap out of me, these lifters were extremely noisy so I shut it down fast. It sounded like every internal part was getting ready to come through the block. I did multiple valve adjustments, cold, hot and while running and nothing helped. I worked on it for about 2 weeks. I drove it about 4 very easy miles and I was afraid I was doing damage so I took it back home. So I let it sit for about a week so I could clear my head, totally frustrated at this point, figured they would have quieted down by now after all the valve adjustments and all the running in the driveway. Use about 1/2 tank of gas. I called Chris and he said to drive it and give it some time that they'll quiet down. So I let it sit some more, just didn't feel like working on it. One night after work I readjusted all the valves again they same way as the previous 20+ times. Started it up and after about 15-20 minutes of running I noticed that they were a little quieter but not much. Sitting there running and the left side went quiet and a few minutes later the right side went quiet. I know it sounds stupid but I have no idea what happened.
I now have a little over 400 miles on it and they are very quiet. I knew going in that these had a history of being noisy but I was not expecting them to be as loud as they were. I read a post that Scott Foxwell said that thinner oil is better and you have to get the oil up to temperature. I'm not smart enough to say that's what finally happened, but all I know is they're still quiet, the motor has more power and torque where I wanted it and my new 800cfm Sean Murphy q-jet works flawlessly. The rest of the combo is pretty basic, 1-3/4" full length tube headers into a Pypes 2-1/2" exhaust with an X pipe, Dyna Max Ultra Flo mufflers and the intake is a aluminum Chevy Q-jet from a 454 crate engine, its basically an Edelbrock Performer RPM Q-Jet.
Like I said at the beginning I don't want any bashing or insults from this. This is the experience that I went through to get to this point. Was it worth it, if you asked me that 2 months ago I would've said no, but now that everything is working the way I want, it was well worth it.
Thanks Jeff
Jeff I appreciate you going into detail with your post sir. I also applaud you staying the course as I knew what result you would get. Thank you. Sorry I haven't posted on here. I wanted to address some of the stuff on the YB and get it back on track. I've been dealing with a pinched nerve so I have been in and out of the office.

Chris Straub
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post #49 of 70 (permalink) Old Dec 18th, 18, 12:55 PM
 
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Re: Clearing the air on lifter noise

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Originally Posted by 71454Chevelle View Post
Very nice write up baby brother!

Before these lifters quieted down they didn't have a solid lifter "sewing machine" sound, is was more of a "way out of adjustment" sound, badly out of adjustment. No matter how they were adjusted it was noisy. Can't explain why after all the time of fooling with them, literally within a few moments they went quiet. It's all good now. Chris did a nice job of specing this cam, runs strong. Jeff let me drive it for abit and it runs very well. Very docile in traffic, but when you stand on it it moves that big C20 VERY nicely. Even has a nice sounding little chop to the idle.
Now I'm going to try and talk him into abit of a compression bump and have Mark Jones do some of his magic on the 781's that are on it.
I'm glad you got to try it. It should make a boat load of torque for him and be an excellent DD.

Chris Straub
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post #50 of 70 (permalink) Old Dec 18th, 18, 12:57 PM
 
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Re: Clearing the air on lifter noise

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Originally Posted by novadude View Post
Cam specs are interesting. I would not have expected such a long exhaust lobe on a truck engine with no compression. I would guess that it would be a lot better fuel economy without such an early exhaust opening, but that's just speculation. GM also seems to like a big split on the crate engine BBC cams (211/230) so there must be something I don't know.
Cam is not far off for what I have done for several tool truck owners with 366's and 427's. All report much greater torque and improved city fuel mileage by around 2 MPG. I've done about 6 tool trucks.

Chris Straub
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post #51 of 70 (permalink) Old Dec 18th, 18, 12:59 PM
 
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Re: Clearing the air on lifter noise

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Originally Posted by Schurkey View Post
Well, I suppose this'll get deleted.

1. Did you have VENTED plugs in the front of the block--the two plugs at the front of the lifter galleries, behind the timing gear? If not, next time put a ~.032 hole in each one. GM is doing this on the 5.7 Vortec engines, and likely others as well. The p/n for Melling vented plugs to fit those blocks (880) is MPC-52V. Melling sells other sizes of vented plugs, but it's easy to drill your own.

Other blocks might take a different-size plug.

2. SOAKING lifters does NOTHING useful. You wasted two days. Cold oil WILL NOT enter the lifter unless you pump them.

3. While there's a long, sad story involved, NOT pre-lubing lifters was the first of a chain-reaction of failure that cost me an Olds 455. Since then, EVERY set of lifters I install gets pumped full of ATF. I can see that the lifter will pass oil to the pushrod seat, I can verify lifter leakdown rate. And they're reasonably quiet on start-up. The engine does NOT run "really crappy". I do have to be very careful when adjusting lifter preload. The adjustment has to be done slowly to give the lifter time to bleed down. If not, you'll open the valve a little bit as you crank the rocker nut down--and potentially tag the piston, especially if you're not familiar with finding "zero lash". This could bend the valve. Slowly is good.


I am on the verge of saying that I'll no longer install lifters without pulling them apart and cleaning the dreck out of them. USED lifters WILL get taken apart. NEW lifters...I'm on the fence. I haven't had problems (since I started pumping them with ATF) but I'm hearing a lot of stories about extended run-time before they quiet-up. That disturbs me.

4. There's something to be said for pre-heating engine coolant (easy) and engine oil (also easy) before firing an engine after reassembly. Heated oil will flow faster into the tight-clearance areas, and if there's any hardened assembly (anti-corrosion) waxy crap in the interior of the lifter, it'll melt it out faster. Every engine I build gets a block heater. For typical Chevy-Ford-Mopar iron V-8s, they're about $30 and simple to install--when the engine is on the assembly stand. A magnetic heater costs more, but can be transferred from oil-pan to oil-pan as you build a series of engines. Not near as efficient as a block heater, but they'll warm oil eventually.




Wild guess based on zero evidence: Your lifters suddenly got quiet when the gunk inside got warm enough to liquify. Until then, it was either interfering with the check-ball and seat so that the lifter couldn't pump up, or blocking the oil exit path trapping air inside.

GM had a tech bulletin early in the 90's as the first production BBC would build up an air in the lifter galleys. GM did the above "Fix". It may be something we need add in our BBC kits.

Chris Straub
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post #52 of 70 (permalink) Old Dec 18th, 18, 1:03 PM
 
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Re: Clearing the air on lifter noise

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Originally Posted by 496blaze View Post
Thanks for confirming that you used the street lifters and not the 4603's. Seems this important detail was left out of the other post.
What I posted was a direct quote from the customer. Nothing was left out. All of it was cut and pasted.

Chris Straub
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post #53 of 70 (permalink) Old Dec 18th, 18, 1:15 PM
 
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Re: Clearing the air on lifter noise

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Originally Posted by StevenS View Post
I think some people here are off topic and missed the point of the post. This post is related to the Cstraub post of noisey morel lifters. Not about bleeding air from new lifters.
The post was to make a point and start a conversation. What causes the noise with some Morels and not others. Don't know. Is it the majority of Morels, No. The data doesn't support it when looking at sales compared to returns.

Could air in the lifter be part of the noise? Yes. We have had lifters come in here and sent to Morel that were said to be noisy and when taken apart, no oil.

It's my goal to get a check list of things that needs to done. Also when it comes to oil and some say it is stupid to have to change.....Well GM and Chrysler must be idiots as the cars coming out of Detroit 30 years ago had 10W30 and 10W40. Now they have 0W20.

Chris Straub
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post #54 of 70 (permalink) Old Dec 18th, 18, 1:17 PM
 
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Re: Clearing the air on lifter noise

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Originally Posted by dream66 View Post
Off topic or not...Some very useful tech info in regard to this thread as well as the closed thread.
Intent was for tech except the Keyboard seems to give some Super Powers and they want to take it to the personal side quickly. Usually those people have no info to share, just an axe to grind.

Chris Straub
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post #55 of 70 (permalink) Old Dec 18th, 18, 1:22 PM
 
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Re: Clearing the air on lifter noise

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Originally Posted by Georgia69 View Post
I have used three hydraulic roller cams. Two in a 496, the first an Isky and the second a Lunati. Used the same set of Morel lifters on both. I found the lifters made a little noise until the engine warmed up for 2-3 minutes. Both combos were picky about lash adjustment. The third HR I’ve used is a Lunati currently in the 355 SBC in my Impala. I don’t know what lifters they are, except they are badged Lunati and came in a kit with the cam. On this particular cam/lifters, I found valve adjustment to be VERY finicky - car ran like crap on initial start, and I found no compression on #4 cylinder. Valves on that cylinder were over-tightened. In the end, I went through a process of VERY SLOWLY AND CAREFULLY adjusting valves with the engine hot and running in order to get satisfactory results. Once I did that, I have identical cranking compression on all cylinders, motor performs exceptionally well, and idles smoothly and silently, “like a Cadillac” as my dad would say.

I often wonder if today’s more aggressive cam lobe designs (with associated higher valve spring pressures) are the REAL problem, and the problem just manifests itself as lifter failures. Same suspicion on HFT cams as well as HR cams.

JMHO
The Lunati's would be Morels. They buy both the street and the higher rpm stuff. Depending on price, it could be either.

We are no using .500" valve lift cams anymore. Your 100% correct. In today's performance world to have a .680" to .700" lift in your BBC is pretty normal. The basic premise for performance is to modify beyond production capability. We are pushing these things as we want more from them.

Chris Straub
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post #56 of 70 (permalink) Old Dec 18th, 18, 1:25 PM
 
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Re: Clearing the air on lifter noise

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Originally Posted by Jesse 496 View Post
I love mine. About 5 thousand miles and 80 passes so far . We will be getting another set for the big motor.

They were louder at first. They all sounded the same so I let it ride.
After about 500 miles much improved . They were definitely louder with some oils .Redline 5/30 works the best so far.

They like clean oil . We have the bypass blocked.
We have a HV pump with the blue spring.

Oil aeration can be a problem if you have 4.250 crank and not a good oil pan.

I think we could hit a 8.99 on oxygenated fuel with the 80lb exhaust system removed along with the unnecessary seats like Demon style. It would be close in good air Im 250lb so a horse jockey sized guy could be needed as well lol.

Thank you for your post Jesse.. Your build has always performed well and I don't remember you guys ever really having any issues with the Morels. You have either the 4603 or 5045 Morels from Lunati.

Chris Straub
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post #57 of 70 (permalink) Old Dec 18th, 18, 1:27 PM
 
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Re: Clearing the air on lifter noise

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Originally Posted by cheveslakr View Post
Very interesting so far. I've got to research which lifters are in my sbc 406. They're awful noisy and have over 500 miles. Running Valvoline 20W-50 with the blessing of the engine builder. If the answer is lower viscosity oil, is that smart for the rest of the engine. I can't ask that builder because we don't talk....long story.
GM nor Chrysler use 20W50 oil in production hyd roller lifters. Your post is one of the main issues.....engine builders ASSUME and do not read the instructions. If you put an oil in the car that has a centistoke rating of 15 or less, It would be my prediction that your engine will quiet down.

Chris Straub
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post #58 of 70 (permalink) Old Dec 18th, 18, 1:29 PM
 
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Re: Clearing the air on lifter noise

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Originally Posted by CNC BLOCKS N/E View Post
Thinner oil does not make a difference save your money.
Carl, with all due respect sir, it does. I've seen it multiple times over the years and if it didn't sir, GM would not be putting 0W20 and 5W20 in their production engines with hyd roller lifters.

Chris Straub
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Why is it we never have time or money to do it the right way in the beginning but we always have time and money to do it over again?
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post #59 of 70 (permalink) Old Dec 18th, 18, 1:32 PM
 
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Re: Clearing the air on lifter noise

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Originally Posted by 427L88 View Post
My take away is, for the next BBC, I'm sticking with solids. Quieter, simpler, more reliable, and precise lash adjustments. And I like pulling the covers and doing an inspection once in a while. SOLIDS RULE! No squishy noisy lifters for the rat.

This is the thing that I tell anyone....If part of the hot rod experience that you enjoy is wrenching on the car, the go solids. Brian Goodings 10 year old set of Morel Solid Roller needles, 4845, proves that they will last. If you want to just change oil and buy gas....go hyd roller lifter.

Chris Straub
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post #60 of 70 (permalink) Old Dec 18th, 18, 1:32 PM
 
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Re: Clearing the air on lifter noise

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Originally Posted by JBoggs View Post
I'm with Jesse, my 4603's weren't dead quiet but did the job with a fairly aggressive lobe. Wouldn't hesitate to run them again. Now the car has a MR, Black Mamba's. They seem much louder than the previous 4603's... So far like both series of lifters from Morel.

Nice explanation Jeff.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk
Thank you Jarad.

Chris Straub
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