Clearing the air on lifter noise - Page 2 - Chevelle Tech
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post #16 of 70 (permalink) Old Dec 15th, 18, 10:53 AM
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Todd
 
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Re: Clearing the air on lifter noise

Thanks for confirming that you used the street lifters and not the 4603's. Seems this important detail was left out of the other post.

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post #17 of 70 (permalink) Old Dec 15th, 18, 12:05 PM
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Re: Clearing the air on lifter noise

I think some people here are off topic and missed the point of the post. This post is related to the Cstraub post of noisey morel lifters. Not about bleeding air from new lifters.

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post #18 of 70 (permalink) Old Dec 15th, 18, 12:22 PM
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Re: Clearing the air on lifter noise

Off topic or not...Some very useful tech info in regard to this thread as well as the closed thread.
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post #19 of 70 (permalink) Old Dec 15th, 18, 1:14 PM
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On the last one I built (SBC), I drilled the two front plugs (0.030”) as Schurkey has shown above. I did not pre-lube lifters (Crane has roller retrofit). I prelubed the engine with a drill. Lifters were quiet within a second or two of start-up.
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post #20 of 70 (permalink) Old Dec 15th, 18, 3:30 PM
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Re: Clearing the air on lifter noise

I agree there is useful info. Like to hear how many people have morels and if there noise went away. I have a solid roller and when its time to rebuild the lifters I may change to hydro. Seems like Johnson has a better lifter maybe???

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post #21 of 70 (permalink) Old Dec 15th, 18, 4:41 PM
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Re: Clearing the air on lifter noise

I have used three hydraulic roller cams. Two in a 496, the first an Isky and the second a Lunati. Used the same set of Morel lifters on both. I found the lifters made a little noise until the engine warmed up for 2-3 minutes. Both combos were picky about lash adjustment. The third HR I’ve used is a Lunati currently in the 355 SBC in my Impala. I don’t know what lifters they are, except they are badged Lunati and came in a kit with the cam. On this particular cam/lifters, I found valve adjustment to be VERY finicky - car ran like crap on initial start, and I found no compression on #4 cylinder. Valves on that cylinder were over-tightened. In the end, I went through a process of VERY SLOWLY AND CAREFULLY adjusting valves with the engine hot and running in order to get satisfactory results. Once I did that, I have identical cranking compression on all cylinders, motor performs exceptionally well, and idles smoothly and silently, “like a Cadillac” as my dad would say.

I often wonder if today’s more aggressive cam lobe designs (with associated higher valve spring pressures) are the REAL problem, and the problem just manifests itself as lifter failures. Same suspicion on HFT cams as well as HR cams.

JMHO

Mike

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post #22 of 70 (permalink) Old Dec 15th, 18, 6:13 PM
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Re: Clearing the air on lifter noise

Quote:
Originally Posted by Georgia69 View Post
I have used three hydraulic roller cams. Two in a 496, the first an Isky and the second a Lunati. Used the same set of Morel lifters on both. I found the lifters made a little noise until the engine warmed up for 2-3 minutes. Both combos were picky about lash adjustment. The third HR I’ve used is a Lunati currently in the 355 SBC in my Impala. I don’t know what lifters they are, except they are badged Lunati and came in a kit with the cam. On this particular cam/lifters, I found valve adjustment to be VERY finicky - car ran like crap on initial start, and I found no compression on #4 cylinder. Valves on that cylinder were over-tightened. In the end, I went through a process of VERY SLOWLY AND CAREFULLY adjusting valves with the engine hot and running in order to get satisfactory results. Once I did that, I have identical cranking compression on all cylinders, motor performs exceptionally well, and idles smoothly and silently, “like a Cadillac” as my dad would say.

I often wonder if today’s more aggressive cam lobe designs (with associated higher valve spring pressures) are the REAL problem, and the problem just manifests itself as lifter failures. Same suspicion on HFT cams as well as HR cams.

JMHO

Mike I have done the A & B test pulled the noisy lifters out and just placed the lifters with GM OEM roller lifters and the problem went a way and those were both aggressive cams.

Look at BBC 1.7 ratio that a lot more pressure on the lifter than a 1.5 ratio on a SBC. I have found it does not matter on oil valve adjustment ETC.

Follow the whats going on ever on Yellow Bullet there is a guy Randy Vrooman which is a GM and engineer for Johnson Lifters and is going to shed some light on whats going on with these noisy lifters.
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post #23 of 70 (permalink) Old Dec 15th, 18, 9:26 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Clearing the air on lifter noise

Quote:
Originally Posted by von View Post
Jeff glad to hear things eventually worked out well. Also glad to hear you're using a Q jet and it's working well. IMO the perfect carb for your combo. I bet that truck really hauls in more ways than one.
Von I'm such a Q-jet junky, I love these carbs. IMO they're the best street carb out there when built properly.This is the third one Sean has done for me and he nailed this one. I would put it up against any EFI out there for drivability and throttle response. The throttle response is instant and the off idle transition is smooth as glass. After the holidays I'll have to come down and let you drive it and get your opinion.
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post #24 of 70 (permalink) Old Dec 15th, 18, 11:09 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Clearing the air on lifter noise

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Originally Posted by Schurkey View Post
Well, I suppose this'll get deleted.

1. Did you have VENTED plugs in the front of the block--the two plugs at the front of the lifter galleries, behind the timing gear? If not, next time put a ~.032 hole in each one. GM is doing this on the 5.7 Vortec engines, and likely others as well. The p/n for Melling vented plugs to fit those blocks (880) is MPC-52V. Melling sells other sizes of vented plugs, but it's easy to drill your own.

Other blocks might take a different-size plug.

2. SOAKING lifters does NOTHING useful. You wasted two days. Cold oil WILL NOT enter the lifter unless you pump them.

3. While there's a long, sad story involved, NOT pre-lubing lifters was the first of a chain-reaction of failure that cost me an Olds 455. Since then, EVERY set of lifters I install gets pumped full of ATF. I can see that the lifter will pass oil to the pushrod seat, I can verify lifter leakdown rate. And they're reasonably quiet on start-up. The engine does NOT run "really crappy". I do have to be very careful when adjusting lifter preload. The adjustment has to be done slowly to give the lifter time to bleed down. If not, you'll open the valve a little bit as you crank the rocker nut down--and potentially tag the piston, especially if you're not familiar with finding "zero lash". This could bend the valve. Slowly is good.


I am on the verge of saying that I'll no longer install lifters without pulling them apart and cleaning the dreck out of them. USED lifters WILL get taken apart. NEW lifters...I'm on the fence. I haven't had problems (since I started pumping them with ATF) but I'm hearing a lot of stories about extended run-time before they quiet-up. That disturbs me.

4. There's something to be said for pre-heating engine coolant (easy) and engine oil (also easy) before firing an engine after reassembly. Heated oil will flow faster into the tight-clearance areas, and if there's any hardened assembly (anti-corrosion) waxy crap in the interior of the lifter, it'll melt it out faster. Every engine I build gets a block heater. For typical Chevy-Ford-Mopar iron V-8s, they're about $30 and simple to install--when the engine is on the assembly stand. A magnetic heater costs more, but can be transferred from oil-pan to oil-pan as you build a series of engines. Not near as efficient as a block heater, but they'll warm oil eventually.




Wild guess based on zero evidence: Your lifters suddenly got quiet when the gunk inside got warm enough to liquify. Until then, it was either interfering with the check-ball and seat so that the lifter couldn't pump up, or blocking the oil exit path trapping air inside.

First I need to explain something, this is the first big block I've ever owned so I'm dumb as a bag of hammers when it comes to these. I know how I want it to run just not smart enough to know how to get it there. I didn't even know that the push rods were different lengths. The plugs are not vented, I didn't know that little modification existed until after but it makes perfect since.


Soaking the lifters. That is part of the instructions with the lifters. I called Chris and asked about it because I've always heard not to because it would cause problems at start up. He told me it would be fine but just not to soak them in solvent because it would wash out the break in lube inside the lifters.

I like the idea about preheating the coolant and oil. I wish when I had the engine out this past summer that I would've installed a block heater.

If I'm getting oil at the rocker arms through the push rods wouldn't the air be bled out of the system?

Jeff
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post #25 of 70 (permalink) Old Dec 16th, 18, 5:44 AM
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Re: Clearing the air on lifter noise

Quote:
Originally Posted by 72BB Nova View Post
Von I'm such a Q-jet junky, I love these carbs. IMO they're the best street carb out there when built properly.This is the third one Sean has done for me and he nailed this one. I would put it up against any EFI out there for drivability and throttle response. The throttle response is instant and the off idle transition is smooth as glass. After the holidays I'll have to come down and let you drive it and get your opinion.
That would be cool. I'd be happy just to ride in it. BTW the vent holes in the block plugs behind the timing gear serve another purpose too. They also help lube the surfaces of the block and timing gear. It's especially important if the cam is a flat tappet with a lot of valve spring pressure. With a FT cam the lifters and tapered lobes are what keeps the cam from riding forward out of the block. Sometimes with a cast iron timing gear it will gall the block and send metal particles throughout the engine. I had that happen with a 427 block in my NHRA stocker in the late 70's. It was a Moroso adjustable timing gear. It galled the block and sent iron particles into the oil and some of it ended up embedded in the piston skirts and cyl walls. That hurt ring seal and it didn't do the bearings any good either. After that I always used a stainless shim between block and gear on all big blocks to prevent that possibility. You machine off the back of the timing gear the thickness of the shim. They used to sell the shims at Jegs and Summit. Hopefully still do. Cheap insurance. Shouldn't be a problem with a roller cam since not much load between the gear and block but you never know.

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Last edited by von; Dec 16th, 18 at 6:01 AM.
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post #26 of 70 (permalink) Old Dec 16th, 18, 4:57 PM
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Re: Clearing the air on lifter noise

Quote:
Originally Posted by von View Post
That would be cool. I'd be happy just to ride in it. BTW the vent holes in the block plugs behind the timing gear serve another purpose too. They also help lube the surfaces of the block and timing gear. It's especially important if the cam is a flat tappet with a lot of valve spring pressure. With a FT cam the lifters and tapered lobes are what keeps the cam from riding forward out of the block. Sometimes with a cast iron timing gear it will gall the block and send metal particles throughout the engine. I had that happen with a 427 block in my NHRA stocker in the late 70's. It was a Moroso adjustable timing gear. It galled the block and sent iron particles into the oil and some of it ended up embedded in the piston skirts and cyl walls. That hurt ring seal and it didn't do the bearings any good either. After that I always used a stainless shim between block and gear on all big blocks to prevent that possibility. You machine off the back of the timing gear the thickness of the shim. They used to sell the shims at Jegs and Summit. Hopefully still do. Cheap insurance. Shouldn't be a problem with a roller cam since not much load between the gear and block but you never know.
Von
With regard to lubricating the thrust surface this is incorrect even though it has been repeated about a million times on the internet
You do not throw oil on the outside of a rotating object & expect it to get to the center,, not going to happen.
If you want more oil to the thrust surface you can either drill a small (±.020) hole into the oil passage from the center of the thrust area or you can groove the block before installing the front cam bearing or groove the backside of the front bearing from the oil hole to the thrust surface

Or better yet run a Torrington or bronze thrust bearing

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Last edited by Wolfplace; Dec 16th, 18 at 5:13 PM.
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post #27 of 70 (permalink) Old Dec 16th, 18, 8:22 PM
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Re: Clearing the air on lifter noise

Sure am glad this thread came up here and Yellowbullet. If I was ever to go hydraulic, I’d sure the f&@# stay away from these lifters!
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post #28 of 70 (permalink) Old Dec 16th, 18, 9:12 PM
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Re: Clearing the air on lifter noise

Jeff:

What fuel pump are you running? Most of what I see available today with enough capacity to supply a BBC also puts out around 8 psi, which is high for a Qjet.

What is idle vacuum and rpm in gear?

Here's a link to a vid of my BBC C30 idling in park. https://www.chevelles.com/forums/13-...ax-17769s.html How does yours compare?
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post #29 of 70 (permalink) Old Dec 16th, 18, 9:45 PM
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Re: Clearing the air on lifter noise

I love mine. About 5 thousand miles and 80 passes so far . We will be getting another set for the big motor.

They were louder at first. They all sounded the same so I let it ride.
After about 500 miles much improved . They were definitely louder with some oils .Redline 5/30 works the best so far.

They like clean oil . We have the bypass blocked.
We have a HV pump with the blue spring.

Oil aeration can be a problem if you have 4.250 crank and not a good oil pan.

I think we could hit a 8.99 on oxygenated fuel with the 80lb exhaust system removed along with the unnecessary seats like Demon style. It would be close in good air Im 250lb so a horse jockey sized guy could be needed as well lol.

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post #30 of 70 (permalink) Old Dec 16th, 18, 10:45 PM
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Re: Clearing the air on lifter noise

Very interesting so far. I've got to research which lifters are in my sbc 406. They're awful noisy and have over 500 miles. Running Valvoline 20W-50 with the blessing of the engine builder. If the answer is lower viscosity oil, is that smart for the rest of the engine. I can't ask that builder because we don't talk....long story.
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