BBC 6.135" rods that won't break the bank? - Page 4 - Chevelle Tech
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post #46 of 61 (permalink) Old Sep 7th, 18, 9:17 AM Thread Starter
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Re: BBC 6.135" rods that won't break the bank?

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Originally Posted by Wolfplace View Post
Not going to happen
The only way this could happen is if said machinist is buying seconds or open sets from the cheapest place he can find or someone is mixing sets along the way.
I cannot speak to Eagle I rarely use them but the few H beam sets I dealt with were close in weight

Now as far as Scat these I can speak to so a little factual info..
Over the years the Scat rods have varied in weight by a substantial amount in COMPLETE sets (one set to another)
But in the 20+ years I've been dealing with them I have have never had a matched set direct from Scat which is where I purchase them vary more than a few grams & this is a lot of rods
Not sure where he got them from, but they were SBC rod sets. Has me rethinking using him to machine my block.

Personal experience, had an Eagle rotating assembly with Mahle pistons in my old LS1 car - no complaints. Had an Eagle cast crank in my father's 72 SS 454 car, crank was junk... vibrated like an SOB. Was supposed to be a stock replacement - ready to go out of the box. Scat, I have no personal experience. I have Howard's rods in my 72, not looking to spend that kind of money this go around.

Mike, I will be asking you more questions through PMs I'm sure. Thank you for your help and input thus far.

1972 SS 454 Chevelle - 468/M21/3.73
1969 Malibu L48/M20/3.31 -> L72 swap
1968 Malibu 307/PG -> LQ9/80E swap

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How do you retire from something you rarely do?

Its like a welfare reciepiant saying there done working...
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post #47 of 61 (permalink) Old Sep 7th, 18, 9:26 AM
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Re: BBC 6.135" rods that won't break the bank?

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Originally Posted by BillyGman View Post
I could be all wrong, but I've always considered the floating wrist pin option as possibly being beneficial in the same way roller rocker arms are, ( less overall wear to the assembly ). Didn't the 1969 ZL-1 engine and the so called 1970 "LS7" crate engine come equipped with floating wrist pins? If so, wasn't there an alleged advantage to the floating design which caused GM engineers to call for that option?
Good call Bill, and really acccurate!

G.M. knew what it took in the long run to make lasting and reliable HP. They decided against using bushings due to the add'l cost factor and chose to "dip" the pin-ends in babbitt! Worked well for the most part, others opted for the bushings, including Ford and Chrysler. This eliminated the necessary pressing operation!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. We recently sold the last set of brand new 7/16" "dipped" rods which also came with the Boron bolt option, all OEM! Here's a shot of an excerpt from the Chevy power manual about the rods.
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post #48 of 61 (permalink) Old Sep 7th, 18, 9:34 AM
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Re: BBC 6.135" rods that won't break the bank?

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Originally Posted by GOSFAST View Post
Good call Bill, and really acccurate!

G.M. knew what it took in the long run to make lasting and reliable HP. They decided against using bushings due to the add'l cost factor and chose to "dip" the pin-ends in babbitt! Worked well for the most part, others opted for the bushings, including Ford and Chrysler. This eliminated the necessary pressing operation!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. We recently sold the last set of brand new 7/16" "dipped" rods which also came with the Boron bolt option, all OEM! Here's a shot of an excerpt from the Chevy power manual about the rods.
Thanks Gary. Especially for the attached pic in your post.

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post #49 of 61 (permalink) Old Sep 7th, 18, 9:47 AM
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Re: BBC 6.135" rods that won't break the bank?

Thanks, Mike Lewis, for the tip on AutoTec pistons!

I guess I have always considered floating piston pins to be superior, given that is what racers and high performance engine builders use. But then, floating pins also allow for faster piston changeout upon teardown and longer life for expensive alloy connecting rods, given small end bushings are replaceable.

That said, I recall the look on my friend Steve Paulson's face when he realized, upon teardown, that the reason for low compression in one of his ('69 Z/28 DZ 302) cylinders was a deep gouge in that cylinder's wall from a piston pin after losing a c-clip or spirolok...or GM missing one (which is more like it) during assembly. This occurred in 1973 after approximately 60,000 miles.
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post #50 of 61 (permalink) Old Sep 7th, 18, 11:11 AM
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Re: BBC 6.135" rods that won't break the bank?

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Originally Posted by Saltherring View Post
.....That said, I recall the look on my friend Steve Paulson's face when he realized, upon teardown, that the reason for low compression in one of his ('69 Z/28 DZ 302) cylinders was a deep gouge in that cylinder's wall from a piston pin after losing a c-clip or spirolok...or GM missing one (which is more like it) during assembly. This occurred in 1973 after approximately 60,000 miles.
OK, but you're not implying nor suggesting that people avoid choosing floating wrist pins, simply due to the possibility or potential for IMPROPER installation, are you? If that be the case, then by the same token, why should anyone choose such things as roller cams/lifters due to the extra care/extra steps that roller cams require during the installation process? In other words, then should people avoid choosing roller cams/roller lifters despite certain advantages that they offer, simply because the possibility of the installer/builder neglecting to take the extra steps that roller cams require?

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post #51 of 61 (permalink) Old Sep 7th, 18, 11:26 AM
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Re: BBC 6.135" rods that won't break the bank?

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Originally Posted by BillyGman View Post
OK, but you're not implying nor suggesting that people avoid choosing floating wrist pins, simply due to the possibility or potential for IMPROPER installation, are you? If that be the case, then by the same token, why should anyone choose such things as roller cams/lifters due to the extra care/extra steps that roller cams require during the installation process? In other words, then should people avoid choosing roller cams/roller lifters despite certain advantages that they offer, simply because the possibility of the installer/builder neglecting to take the extra steps that roller cams require?
No, not really, but being a simple guy I've always liked the idea of keeping things simple, which is what the OP was looking for; simple cost-effective components for a mild performance engine.

We don't all need or want race alloy pistons with floating pins, 4340 crankshafts, roller cams, stroker cranks or all the other stuff some guys choose to spend lots of money on. Back in the day Chevrolet was able to extract reasonable performance from engines and running gear that was relatively simple. Some of us prefer to keep our cars similar to the way the General built them.

Last edited by Saltherring; Sep 7th, 18 at 11:41 AM.
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post #52 of 61 (permalink) Old Sep 7th, 18, 12:00 PM
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Re: BBC 6.135" rods that won't break the bank?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saltherring View Post

That said, I recall the look on my friend Steve Paulson's face when he realized, upon teardown, that the reason for low compression in one of his ('69 Z/28 DZ 302) cylinders was a deep gouge in that cylinder's wall from a piston pin after losing a c-clip or spirolok...or GM missing one (which is more like it) during assembly. This occurred in 1973 after approximately 60,000 miles.
Back in the '70's era (and earlier) most (probably 99%) floated pistons/rods that the aftermarket was supplying/using were the "Waldes Tru-Arcs", they were in just about every TRW piston box when the pistons had the retainer grooves.

The real issue with this type of lock is the fact that they were "directional" and not too many shops were even aware of this fact! There was a "rounded" and "flat" side on these locks and literally thousands were being installed incorrectly by many decent race engine builders! They simply didn't know back then. The "rounded" sides needed to face the pins, the "flats" went to the outside. This was a very important issue back then and still is today when working with these style locks.

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. I can also give you more input on the pressed-pin units, I've installed many more sleeves in pressed-pin platforms with the pins "walking-out" and don't recall a single sleeve install with a floater setup. We actually bushed hundreds upon hundreds of many of the OEM rods, both BB's and SB's combined, on our TA-15 rod machine, which we just very recently sold off! We would also purchase OEM SBC rods with 7/16" bolts and "blank" pin ends (photo below), this allowed us to configure our own rod lengths with some limitations. I actually still have few of these "new" blanks kicking around the shop.
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post #53 of 61 (permalink) Old Sep 7th, 18, 12:25 PM
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Re: BBC 6.135" rods that won't break the bank?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saltherring View Post
No, not really, but being a simple guy I've always liked the idea of keeping things simple, which is what the OP was looking for; simple cost-effective components for a mild performance engine.

We don't all need or want race alloy pistons with floating pins, 4340 crankshafts, roller cams, stroker cranks or all the other stuff some guys choose to spend lots of money on. Back in the day Chevrolet was able to extract reasonable performance from engines and running gear that was relatively simple. Some of us prefer to keep our cars similar to the way the General built them.
^^^^^ Ding, Ding, we have a Winner ^^^^^ It is easy to $pend someone else Money. I do not see any real Power gains in floating wrist pins. Hell, there is probably more frictional losses across 3/4 of the floating pin compared to a press pin. This is going to be an ongoing debate. Four pages and over fifty replies, nobody has giving a Ligitment Documented H.P. increase. Just here say, personal opinion, theory, etc. Somebody stated it is easier to install & remove a floating pin set up. I agree with this if you are at a race and had to change a damaged piston. But during an engine build, it's a P.I.T.A.

Getting back to the original question in this thread, it took a BIG U-turn.
Nothing wrong with a press pin stock rod build. Save some Ca$h and take the Wife out to Dinner.

92Camaro
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post #54 of 61 (permalink) Old Sep 7th, 18, 2:11 PM
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Re: BBC 6.135" rods that won't break the bank?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GOSFAST View Post
Back in the '70's era (and earlier) most (probably 99%) floated pistons/rods that the aftermarket was supplying/using were the "Waldes Tru-Arcs", they were in just about every TRW piston box when the pistons had the retainer grooves.

The real issue with this type of lock is the fact that they were "directional" and not too many shops were even aware of this fact! There was a "rounded" and "flat" side on these locks and literally thousands were being installed incorrectly by many decent race engine builders! They simply didn't know back then. The "rounded" sides needed to face the pins, the "flats" went to the outside. This was a very important issue back then and still is today when working with these style locks.
Very interesting information there^ Gary. I didn't know that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 92Camaro View Post
^^^^^ Ding, Ding, we have a Winner ^^^^^ It is easy to $pend someone else Money. I do not see any real Power gains in floating wrist pins. Hell, there is probably more frictional losses across 3/4 of the floating pin compared to a press pin. This is going to be an ongoing debate. Four pages and over fifty replies, nobody has giving a Ligitment Documented H.P. increase. Just here say, personal opinion, theory, etc. Somebody stated it is easier to install & remove a floating pin set up. I agree with this if you are at a race and had to change a damaged piston. But during an engine build, it's a P.I.T.A.

Getting back to the original question in this thread, it took a BIG U-turn.
Nothing wrong with a press pin stock rod build. Save some Ca$h and take the Wife out to Dinner.

92Camaro
First, I NEVER intended to imply that there was/is anything "wrong" with pressed-in wrist pins. IMO this isn't about right or wrong anyway. This is about choices, and options. How many corners can be cut, or how many things an enthusiast needs, wants, or doesn't need/want in his engine build is up to each individual.

I was simply addressing the implication that floating wrist pins should be avoided merely because they can walk out of the rod IF/when they're installed incorrectly. My main point was that you can say that improper installation of many engine components, (including cheap OE type factory ones) can cause problems. Therefore I don't believe that the possibility of improper installation of the spirol loks on floating wrist pins is, or can be a selling point for pressed-in wrist pins.

BTW, I also didn't think that there's a huge difference in connecting rod/piston assemblies, merely due to them having floating wrist pins alone. But perhaps I am wrong about that. Either way, I do not agree with the premise to avoid any engine internal part, (including floating wrist pins) merely due to your engine builder possibly installing them the wrong way. If that is the case, then I guess you don't have a whole lot of confidence in the experience of your engine builder in the first place, eh?

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post #55 of 61 (permalink) Old Sep 9th, 18, 7:20 PM Thread Starter
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Re: BBC 6.135" rods that won't break the bank?

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Originally Posted by 92Camaro View Post
Save some Ca$h and take the Wife out to Dinner.

92Camaro
I'm not married, hence the only reason I can even halfway afford this s#!t.
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1969 Malibu L48/M20/3.31 -> L72 swap
1968 Malibu 307/PG -> LQ9/80E swap

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Originally Posted by 69-CHVL View Post
How do you retire from something you rarely do?

Its like a welfare reciepiant saying there done working...
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post #56 of 61 (permalink) Old Sep 9th, 18, 8:54 PM
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Re: BBC 6.135" rods that won't break the bank?

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I'm not married, hence the only reason I can even halfway afford this s#!t.
So you make a decision yet?

92Camaro
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post #57 of 61 (permalink) Old Sep 10th, 18, 12:40 AM
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Re: BBC 6.135" rods that won't break the bank?

Old School Pistons.... Still brand new
454+.060 1/16 1/16 3/16
old school high compression
TRW/Manley # 49056
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post #58 of 61 (permalink) Old Sep 10th, 18, 3:34 PM Thread Starter
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Re: BBC 6.135" rods that won't break the bank?

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So you make a decision yet?

92Camaro
Leaning towards the Scat I-beams at the moment.
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1972 SS 454 Chevelle - 468/M21/3.73
1969 Malibu L48/M20/3.31 -> L72 swap
1968 Malibu 307/PG -> LQ9/80E swap

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Originally Posted by 69-CHVL View Post
How do you retire from something you rarely do?

Its like a welfare reciepiant saying there done working...
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post #59 of 61 (permalink) Old Sep 10th, 18, 3:40 PM
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Re: BBC 6.135" rods that won't break the bank?

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Leaning towards the Scat I-beams at the moment.
good choice.

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post #60 of 61 (permalink) Old Sep 10th, 18, 5:01 PM
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Re: BBC 6.135" rods that won't break the bank?

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Old School Pistons.... Still brand new
454+.060 1/16 1/16 3/16
old school high compression
TRW/Manley # 49056
That was state of the art bracket race engine stuff right there in 1985!!

Ray


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