Fender Alignment Help - Page 2 - Chevelle Tech
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post #16 of 27 (permalink) Old Feb 5th, 17, 12:56 PM
blm
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Re: Fender Alignment Help

Well this has escalated beyond my alignment knowledge. These are some good tips you guys are sharing. I guess its easy once one knows how to tackle the obstacles.
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post #17 of 27 (permalink) Old Feb 5th, 17, 1:24 PM
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Re: Fender Alignment Help

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Streib View Post
Below are some drawings I made up years ago when I had to cut in relief cuts on the inner structure of the fenders for my 74 Spirit of America Nova.
I had tried with brute force trying to get the right curvature in it but I was worried about applying too much pressure and then either denting or damaging the skin or over bending it.
What I also experienced was after I got the middle to curve outward more is it also affected the bottom portion as not the bottom lip bent upward. For this I then had to slice open the inner structure, open the angle or cut to get things parallel again.



#1 is looking forward against the back edge of the fender
#2 are the 2 relief cuts in the inner structure only
#3 is the middle bowed out more and that slice closed up in the middle of the fender but then notice how it puts a different angle on the bottom lip
#4 is with the bottom slice opened up to get the bottom lip square again
#5 is a layover of it before then after

On mine after I had the slices or cuts in the inner structure I was able to get the curvature right and then opened the door and got in there with my wire feed welder and tacked across the cuts to stabilize it and not have it move on me with taking it off of the car.

Here is the album I have on some bodywork where I was using a paint stick to see how my panel to panel levels were:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/121766...h/18875499191/

Jim
Jim,
What a great narrative and pics of how to solve your problem!! I'm sure others may be able to use your technique(s) to make fenders fit better. I can remember having trouble with mine on my '69 and they were factory ones.
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post #18 of 27 (permalink) Old Feb 5th, 17, 1:46 PM
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Re: Fender Alignment Help

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Originally Posted by DUKE 69 View Post
Jim,
What a great narrative and pics of how to solve your problem!! I'm sure others may be able to use your technique(s) to make fenders fit better. I can remember having trouble with mine on my '69 and they were factory ones.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blm View Post
Well this has escalated beyond my alignment knowledge. These are some good tips you guys are sharing. I guess its easy once one knows how to tackle the obstacles.
I can say years ago, I never knew what I do today and I'm still learning. When I did my first pair of full quarter panels with rear outer wheel housing replacement and a taillight panel, I though I would be ahead spending money on some NOS pieces only to have one side not fit real well. I took a break and figured out ways to correct things and get them how I wanted them to be. Even on my car, I reused the original doors that have welded on hinges and the doors had a twist in them and figured out a way to get them straight using tools I had laying around. I had an issue with a trunk lip that needed to be pulled in and welded together a specialized tool to allow me to do the work.

There is SO MUCH knowledge out there and I can give what I can but I also know there are techniques I have yet to try and hopefully when I do try them I have good guidance and not do so much damage that I have to start over BUT sometimes one has to do that.

Jim

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post #19 of 27 (permalink) Old Feb 5th, 17, 3:40 PM
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Re: Fender Alignment Help

Jim, your right it does grab ya if your at this stage. I was looking at the beginning of your door gaps in photos w/paintstick and I am impressed. I cannot get my doors fenders or quarters this flat. They all dive inwards at gap and to me this would take extensive metal work to get that stick flat. of coarse you can raise it up w/ bondo but then your door edges and fender edge become unrealistically fat. i tried to copy those photos of doors and 1/4's but could not. except for these fenders everything else is done awaiting final poly ester filler. Nothing should be this hard. it angers me when I see some people just slap on fenders and walk away. I even have decided to put new door skins on because i sanded them down to bare metal because there was too much bondo in doors and i have some good dents right in front of reinforcement brace that I cannot get behind. anyway took today off gonna hit it tomorrow again.
thanks a million for your help and everyone else's
Tony
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post #20 of 27 (permalink) Old Feb 5th, 17, 5:28 PM
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Re: Fender Alignment Help

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Originally Posted by urleycay View Post
Jim, your right it does grab ya if your at this stage. I was looking at the beginning of your door gaps in photos w/paintstick and I am impressed. I cannot get my doors fenders or quarters this flat. They all dive inwards at gap and to me this would take extensive metal work to get that stick flat. of coarse you can raise it up w/ bondo but then your door edges and fender edge become unrealistically fat. i tried to copy those photos of doors and 1/4's but could not. except for these fenders everything else is done awaiting final poly ester filler. Nothing should be this hard. it angers me when I see some people just slap on fenders and walk away. I even have decided to put new door skins on because i sanded them down to bare metal because there was too much bondo in doors and i have some good dents right in front of reinforcement brace that I cannot get behind. anyway took today off gonna hit it tomorrow again.
thanks a million for your help and everyone else's
Tony
I tried copying the photo's but the only way I could do it was to left click the picture in the album, then mouse over the picture and left click to enlarge it, then hit the PRT SC button (print screen), then open up paintshop and then hold down CTRL and then hit the letter V and the picture should then paste into paintshop. Then you can move it around, trim it, whatever and then save it as a file.

I know years ago when I did not know what I do now is I was using a lot of filler (what I've been calling a bodyman in a can) and I know what you are saying about edge thickness variations or a filler edge. I know on my doors, I would first get an idea what area's needed to be raised or lowered and did what I could with body hammers and dollies but it got to a point that I could no longer feel issues so I then shot the area's with primer and with a paintstick wrapped with sandpaper, started sanding the panel. If I started seeing bare metal appear I would stop and work the area down with a hammer and dolly and then sand some more. If I saw spots that the sandpaper did not even touch, I would raise the area again using my hammer and dollies. Eventually I got to the point of not breaking through down to metal and having the sandpaper scratch all of the panel.

Since I'm a novice, I had tried using my air file in spots but kept chasing issues as I could just not get it to work with the foam backer so I bought another sled, peeled off the foam, took some 1/4" thick plexiglass and cut it to be where the foam was at originally and glued it on. Now I had a hard surface on the backside of the sandpaper and got it to work better for me that way. I've seen guys using the air files with the foam backer but I just could not get it to work right OR I was expecting too much or did to much with it before switching sanding methods.





Another thing I used was Grandpa gave me some old lead files and they were perfect for wrapping sandpaper around them and using it to have a rigid sanding board. Granted they are only about an inch or so wide but it worked for me. Today, you can buy all type of sanding boards but I used what I had laying around.

Jim

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post #21 of 27 (permalink) Old Feb 6th, 17, 9:36 AM
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Re: Fender Alignment Help

I had to make the same relief cuts on mine. Mine were aftermarket front fenders and I had to do a lot of cutting, welding, and grinding to get the gaps and panels to line up as well. As far as your panels diving in at the gaps, the only fix is to weld up the edges and grind them down to match. I know it is a lot of work and most people wouldn't notice that it has been done but.....Once you get them perfect it really makes a huge difference. I spent many many hours on mine because my car is black.




And I am shooting for a dead straight mirror body.

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post #22 of 27 (permalink) Old Feb 8th, 17, 8:09 AM
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Re: Fender Alignment Help

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Streib View Post
Below are some drawings I made up years ago when I had to cut in relief cuts on the inner structure of the fenders for my 74 Spirit of America Nova.
I had tried with brute force trying to get the right curvature in it but I was worried about applying too much pressure and then either denting or damaging the skin or over bending it.
What I also experienced was after I got the middle to curve outward more is it also affected the bottom portion as not the bottom lip bent upward. For this I then had to slice open the inner structure, open the angle or cut to get things parallel again.



#1 is looking forward against the back edge of the fender
#2 are the 2 relief cuts in the inner structure only
#3 is the middle bowed out more and that slice closed up in the middle of the fender but then notice how it puts a different angle on the bottom lip
#4 is with the bottom slice opened up to get the bottom lip square again
#5 is a layover of it before then after

On mine after I had the slices or cuts in the inner structure I was able to get the curvature right and then opened the door and got in there with my wire feed welder and tacked across the cuts to stabilize it and not have it move on me with taking it off of the car.

Here is the album I have on some bodywork where I was using a paint stick to see how my panel to panel levels were:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/121766...h/18875499191/

Jim
The timing on this post was perfect. I just sent my car to paint and they were discussing the shape of the repop fenders on it. they decided to do almost exactly what you showed here. They fit so much better now.

Joe
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post #23 of 27 (permalink) Old Feb 8th, 17, 12:19 PM
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Re: Fender Alignment Help

Quote:
Originally Posted by 04Z06vette View Post
The timing on this post was perfect. I just sent my car to paint and they were discussing the shape of the repop fenders on it. they decided to do almost exactly what you showed here. They fit so much better now.
I'm glad you like what I posted. Yep, I'm no bodyman but I had thought about doing this and then ended up doing it with very nice results. I've seen bodyman that know how much pressure to apply here or there as they do it everyday and I didn't want to go that route as with my luck I would bend it too far and damage things only to have to start over with a new fender.

Jim

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post #24 of 27 (permalink) Old Jul 22nd, 17, 6:50 PM
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Re: Fender Alignment Help

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Streib View Post
I'm glad you like what I posted. Yep, I'm no bodyman but I had thought about doing this and then ended up doing it with very nice results. I've seen bodyman that know how much pressure to apply here or there as they do it everyday and I didn't want to go that route as with my luck I would bend it too far and damage things only to have to start over with a new fender.

Jim
Did you end up tacking/welding the relief cuts?


TIA,
Nick

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post #25 of 27 (permalink) Old Jul 22nd, 17, 7:29 PM
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Re: Fender Alignment Help

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Originally Posted by pcguy View Post
Did you end up tacking/welding the relief cuts?


TIA,
Nick
Nick,

After I made the relief cuts and got the bends I needed, I tacked welded across the cut then trial fitted it once again. If it was good, I pulled the fender back off and did some more welding on the cuts I had made and then double checked with yet another fit. Once it was right, I dressed the welds to where one cannot see where they were at.

With the relief cuts fully welded back up I regained the rigidity that it once had but now have a better panel fit.

Jim

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post #26 of 27 (permalink) Old Jul 23rd, 17, 7:38 AM
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Re: Fender Alignment Help

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Originally Posted by urleycay View Post
Brad & Bart, I am lucky I have not added the hours I have since I started to hang my fenders. Like Justin It seems no matter what I Do after aligning top or fender w/ door and getting 3/16 and tightening top cowl bolt, inside door bolt and firewall bolt. As soon as I mess with bottom two bolts the top of fender/ door pops up. I changed shims so many times I,m blue in the face. I have a 71 SS 454, 4 spd El camino. Full Body off w/ all new body mounts and core support mounts. I even send Frame to Frame shop to check it all out before starting w/ powder coating. The reason was Bumper fit bad on right front corner. they found minor frame horn damage. The elky still had factory orginal fenders (orgn paint still under repaint)and no damage. I put patch panels on bottoms of front two fenders made in USA by guys in Mich. Fenders would not go on. Bought two Dynacorn fenders still will not fit. Doors were changed w/ DVAP AZ doors. These were aligned to rockers and 1/4's before removing 1/4s. Doors line up real good. I just cannot get these fenders to line up. I can sometimes get them on and gap real nice but putting straightedge on door show center of fender does not touch straightedge. Tops and bottoms of fender line up real good w/ straightedge. It has got to the point of frustration that I had to walk away or damge something, I don't get it 6 lousy bolts and I cannot line these things up. You would thing the factory fenders would be the best fit.
Any and all ideas appreciated.
I would see if there is an assembly manual or Fisher body manual and check the gap / line tolerances before you get to carried away. Usually the fender is a hair outward of the door intentionally on the bow. This is so you do not have air noise.
I disagree with shims at the core support.
You shouldn't be shimming the core support nor have I ever seen shims at any core support to fenders.

Steve
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post #27 of 27 (permalink) Old Jul 23rd, 17, 9:33 PM
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Re: Fender Alignment Help

Quote:
Originally Posted by SFD View Post
I would see if there is an assembly manual or Fisher body manual and check the gap / line tolerances before you get to carried away. Usually the fender is a hair outward of the door intentionally on the bow. This is so you do not have air noise.
I disagree with shims at the core support.
You shouldn't be shimming the core support nor have I ever seen shims at any core support to fenders.
Core support shims are commonplace factory adjustments, but the shims are installed at the frame horn mounts for the core support.

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