Wiring welder for garage? - Chevelle Tech
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post #1 of 24 (permalink) Old Oct 14th, 19, 1:49 PM Thread Starter
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Wiring welder for garage?

Taking the plunge and bought a Hobart 125ez welder.
Current wiring is 10 gauge(approx 70') wire with a double 30amp breaker that comes from my house panel to a subpanel in the garage. The feed line from the house has a white wire, black wire and ground. In the garage subpanel white is hooked up to one of the power lugs and the black is hooked up to the other power lug. The ground is hooked up to the ground lug. My compressor is connected to a double 30amp breaker. I also have installed a 30amp single pole breaker for the welder in the subpanel(it's a 100amp box with 6 breaker spaces). For the welder outlet I plan on connecting the black wire to the breaker and the white and ground wires to the ground bus bar. Then wiring the outlet for the welder. This is all the subpanel will be used for. Is there such a thing as a standard 30amp outlet or would a 20amp outlet be OK to use for the welder? Trying to do things correctly and safely. TIA Pete

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post #2 of 24 (permalink) Old Oct 14th, 19, 1:56 PM
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Re: Wiring welder for garage?

Is the welder 120v? For 120v the black wire goes to the breaker, white to the neutral buss bar, and the ground to the metal box (earth ground).

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post #3 of 24 (permalink) Old Oct 14th, 19, 2:35 PM
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Re: Wiring welder for garage?

Looks like you only have 120v going to the garage sub-panel if feed from the house is 2 wires. The breaker size in the house panel will determine the line amps available in the garage. If your welder is 120v and needs 30 amp, the house panel breaker will need to be at least a 30.
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post #4 of 24 (permalink) Old Oct 14th, 19, 2:48 PM
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Re: Wiring welder for garage?

If you only have a 10/2 romex running from your main panel to the sub panel (black, white, bare/ground only), then you have a straight 240 volt hook up. This means that you have no 'real' neutral. The welder is going to require a neutral if it is 120 volts. If you hook up the white wire to the ground bar in your sub panel, you just made the ground wire a load carrying conductor (not the same as your main panel, where the neutral bar is most likely bonded to the ground bar). You really should run a 10/3 romex from the main panel to the sub panel, so that you will have 2 hots, a neutral, and a ground. This would be the correct way to wire it and the safest. You would need to add a separate neutral bar in the sub panel.

P.S. If your sub panel circuit is run in conduit using regular THHN wire, then you should be able to add the neutral wire to the run somewhat easily (pull one conductor out of the conduit with a pull string/wire attached to it, then use that to pull two conductors back into the conduit).
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post #5 of 24 (permalink) Old Oct 14th, 19, 3:09 PM
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Re: Wiring welder for garage?

What is the operating volts/amps of the welder AND of the compressor?

Sounds to me like a white hot wire feeding the sub panel that should have been identified by colored tape or magic marker as hot when installed and there is no neutral for a 120 volt circuit. Otherwise the white would not be on a breaker.

For both 120 and 240 volts in the sub panel, it needs 4 conductors feeding it. The bare conductor and the white (neutral conductor) can not be touching each other in a sub panel.

{edit} Sorrry Brian, I read the question then stopped for a breathing treatment and replied without reading the replies.
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post #6 of 24 (permalink) Old Oct 14th, 19, 4:09 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Wiring welder for garage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WakkoWarner View Post
If you only have a 10/2 romex running from your main panel to the sub panel (black, white, bare/ground only), then you have a straight 240 volt hook up. This means that you have no 'real' neutral. The welder is going to require a neutral if it is 120 volts. If you hook up the white wire to the ground bar in your sub panel, you just made the ground wire a load carrying conductor (not the same as your main panel, where the neutral bar is most likely bonded to the ground bar). You really should run a 10/3 romex from the main panel to the sub panel, so that you will have 2 hots, a neutral, and a ground. This would be the correct way to wire it and the safest. You would need to add a separate neutral bar in the sub panel.

P.S. If your sub panel circuit is run in conduit using regular THHN wire, then you should be able to add the neutral wire to the run somewhat easily (pull one conductor out of the conduit with a pull string/wire attached to it, then use that to pull two conductors back into the conduit).
Brian,
The 10 gauge is actually 10-3 awg with bare ground wire(4 wires total). The red is unused and excess left in both boxes. So to do this correctly I need to hook the black and red to the 30amp house panel breaker. The white to a neutral buss bar and the ground to a separate ground buss bar. I think when the house was originally wired, by an electrician, both ground and white wires are connected to the same buss bar. And in the garage subpanel for 220 I need to hook the black and red to the double 30amp breaker, the white to a neutral buss bar and the ground to a separate ground buss bar. Would it also be good to run a ground from the subpanel box to a ground rod in the ground? I heard back from Hobart and they recommend a 20amp breaker for their 125EZ welder. That 120V breaker should be wired with the black to the breaker, white to neutral buss bar and ground to ground buss bar. Am I understanding and going to do this correctly with what I've stated? TIA Pete

Dean,
I did know both were hot but did not realize even as wired working, it's not done correctly. Thanks for your input.

PS The garage subpanel is a square-D 100amp panel(all that was available here with breaker spaces).

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Last edited by no1dc; Oct 14th, 19 at 4:33 PM.
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post #7 of 24 (permalink) Old Oct 14th, 19, 4:16 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Wiring welder for garage?

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Originally Posted by oldcutlass View Post
Is the welder 120v? For 120v the black wire goes to the breaker, white to the neutral buss bar, and the ground to the metal box (earth ground).
Yes welder is a 120V Hobart 125EZ. Am I to understand I will need to add a ground buss bar with a line run to a grounding rod in the ground? The new buss bar can be in direct contact with the metal subpanel box? Then I use the existing buss bar at the top of the box as the neutral buss bar? TIA Pete

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post #8 of 24 (permalink) Old Oct 14th, 19, 4:19 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Wiring welder for garage?

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Originally Posted by stanski View Post
Looks like you only have 120v going to the garage sub-panel if feed from the house is 2 wires. The breaker size in the house panel will determine the line amps available in the garage. If your welder is 120v and needs 30 amp, the house panel breaker will need to be at least a 30.
House breaker is double 30amp breaker. The garage subpanel has a double 30amp that the compressor is attached to and will have a 20amp breaker for the welder as recommended by Hobart.

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post #9 of 24 (permalink) Old Oct 14th, 19, 4:58 PM
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Re: Wiring welder for garage?

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Originally Posted by no1dc View Post
Brian,
The 10 gauge is actually 10-3 awg with bare ground wire(4 wires total). The red is unused and excess left in both boxes. So to do this correctly I need to hook the black and red to the 30amp house panel breaker. The white to a neutral buss bar and the ground to a separate ground buss bar. I think when the house was originally wired, by an electrician, both ground and white wires are connected to the same buss bar. And in the garage subpanel for 220 I need to hook the black and red to the double 30amp breaker, the white to a neutral buss bar and the ground to a separate ground buss bar. Would it also be good to run a ground from the subpanel box to a ground rod in the ground? I heard back from Hobart and they recommend a 20amp breaker for their 125EZ welder. That 120V breaker should be wired with the black to the breaker, white to neutral buss bar and ground to ground buss bar. Am I understanding and going to do this correctly with what I've stated? TIA Pete

Dean,
I did know both were hot but did not realize even as wired working, it's not done correctly. Thanks for your input.

PS The garage subpanel is a square-D 100amp panel(all that was available here with breaker spaces).

If you already have a 10/3 romex in the sub panel, then rewire it so that the black and red are on the hot lugs, hook the white to a neutral bus bar, and hook the ground to a ground bus bar (make the same changes in your main panel). There is no need to run a wire to a ground rod - the existing ground that you have will be fine.

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post #10 of 24 (permalink) Old Oct 14th, 19, 5:22 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Wiring welder for garage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by WakkoWarner View Post
If you already have a 10/3 romex in the sub panel, then rewire it so that the black and red are on the hot lugs, hook the white to a neutral bus bar, and hook the ground to a ground bus bar (make the same changes in your main panel). There is no need to run a wire to a ground rod - the existing ground that you have will be fine.
Not so sure isolating the white in my main panel is doable as there are a lot of white and bare grounds on the buss bar. That would mean redoing all current white and ground(if I'm understanding you correctly, am I?) and adding an additional buss bar. I also have two panels in my house the 200amp main panel and a 100amp sub panel in my basement shop(the panel the garage subpanel is feed off of).

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Last edited by Dean; Oct 14th, 19 at 5:54 PM.
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post #11 of 24 (permalink) Old Oct 14th, 19, 5:45 PM
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Re: Wiring welder for garage?

The neutrals and the grounds are connected together (except only one wire under any screw) in the main panel OR first disconnect after the meter but only there.

So, they should not be connected to each other in that fist sub panel. (if that's what it is)
If it is fed off of the main panel, then it is a sub panel.
If it is fed off of the line coming in from the meter it is not a sub panel.
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post #12 of 24 (permalink) Old Oct 14th, 19, 6:29 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Wiring welder for garage?

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The neutrals and the grounds are connected together (except only one wire under any screw) in the main panel OR first disconnect after the meter but only there.

So, they should not be connected to each other in that fist sub panel. (if that's what it is)
If it is fed off of the main panel, then it is a sub panel.
If it is fed off of the line coming in from the meter it is not a sub panel.
Dean my setup is as follows. Meter to main 200amp panel. From the 200amp panel large wires are run to a 100amp panel. All grounds and commons in these boxes are connected to the same buss bars. From the 100amp panel I have run 10-3 with ground to my garage 100amp panel. I am using the black and white wires as the hot wires that come off a 30amp double breaker in the 100amp panel and the bare wire as ground. Originally the compressor was hard wired(pigtailed) white to white, black to black and green to ground. The red wires in the 10 gauge I ran and the red wire on the compressor were not used. They are still there but not connected to anything.
Trying to do things right I opted to install a breaker box subpanel(100amp) in my garage. I hooked the black and white to the load lugs and the ground to the ground lug of the 100amp square D subpanel box I added in my garage. I installed a double pole 30amp breaker for the compressor to the garage panel and connected the compressor's black and white wire to each breaker. I attached the bare ground to the buss bar at the top that the gound wire that is attached to the lug is connected. I am adding a 20 amp breaker for the welder with the black wire connected to the breaker, white to the buss bar the ground is attached to and then also attach the ground for the out let to the same buss bar.

Now my understanding is that is not correct. I need to utilize in the home 100amp box and the garage 100amp box the red wire as a load wire, move the white to a common ground buss bar and add a separate ground buss bar in my garage box. The issue I'm wondering is in my home basement 100amp panel it seems I need to now separate all the white common wires from the bare ground wires by adding another buss bar to accomplish this. And if I do that to the 100amp in house panel don't I need to also do that to my 200amp in house main panel.

I know all very confusing but the best way I know to explain and ask questions. Please be patient with this thick headed individual.

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post #13 of 24 (permalink) Old Oct 14th, 19, 6:42 PM
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Re: Wiring welder for garage?

So that sounds like the second panel in the house is fed from the main lugs in the first panel which would technically be being fed from the meter so it would not be classified as a sub panel.

In the garage sub panel; red = hot, black = hot, white on neutral bus bar (with no screw electrically connecting it to box metal) , bare conductor on separate ground bus bar.

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post #14 of 24 (permalink) Old Oct 14th, 19, 8:21 PM
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Re: Wiring welder for garage?

This all gave me a headache!

If your sub feed from the house panel to the garage panel is a romex (plastic) cable red/black/white/ground, itís considered a three wire cable, the ground is never included in the description.

If itís run in conduit, you need at least the red/black/white, the ground can be accomplished by the conduit. Same holds true if itís a metallic cable such as BX or AC cable.

Of course, having a ground wire is always better. Current BX and AC cable has a green ground wire, older stuff does not.

In the house panel, the sub feed should have the red & black to a two pole breaker, the white to the neutral bar and the ground to the panel box or ground bar if there is one.

This feed to the garage MUST be on a breaker in the house panel, itís not safe, proper or accepted to have it on the incoming feed lugs.

In the sub panel in the garage, the red & black should go to the two line lugs, the white to the neutral bar and the ground to the panel box or ground bar.

If the welder is 110 volts, it should be on a 20 amp single pole breaker, black to breaker, white to neutral bar. You said itís 10 gauge wire, good, use it.

If your compressor is 220, itíll more than likely need a 30 amp circuit. Red & black (or black & white) wires to a two pole 30 amp breaker, no neutral needed.

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post #15 of 24 (permalink) Old Oct 14th, 19, 11:34 PM
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Re: Wiring welder for garage?

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Originally Posted by paul bell View Post
This all gave me a headache!

If your sub feed from the house panel to the garage panel is a romex (plastic) cable red/black/white/ground, itís considered a three wire cable, the ground is never included in the description.

If itís run in conduit, you need at least the red/black/white, the ground can be accomplished by the conduit. Same holds true if itís a metallic cable such as BX or AC cable.

Of course, having a ground wire is always better. Current BX and AC cable has a green ground wire, older stuff does not.

In the house panel, the sub feed should have the red & black to a two pole breaker, the white to the neutral bar and the ground to the panel box or ground bar if there is one.

This feed to the garage MUST be on a breaker in the house panel, itís not safe, proper or accepted to have it on the incoming feed lugs.

In the sub panel in the garage, the red & black should go to the two line lugs, the white to the neutral bar and the ground to the panel box or ground bar.

If the welder is 110 volts, it should be on a 20 amp single pole breaker, black to breaker, white to neutral bar. You said itís 10 gauge wire, good, use it.

If your compressor is 220, itíll more than likely need a 30 amp circuit. Red & black (or black & white) wires to a two pole 30 amp breaker, no neutral needed.
Wrong, the bare ground in romex is included in the description, IE - 10-3 W/G

I would never use conduit for the ground myself, I've seen too many conduit joints that have come apart over the years.
But now that conduit was mentioned, all wiring in a garage, floor to ceiling has to be in conduit IF exposed, according to NEC.

{edit} OH, an another thing, the air compressor may not necessarily need a 30 amp breaker, it depends on how many amps it draws plus it is considered a non continuous load which is allowed to have one gauge smaller size wire per over current device size.


Most of this stuff has already been said.

Better go take a couple of headache pills

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Last edited by Dean; Oct 15th, 19 at 12:00 AM.
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