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Electrical & Wiring Troubleshooting electrical problems.

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  #1  
Old May 3rd, 09, 12:20 PM
67erminerag 67erminerag is offline
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Default coil is bad, does a high performance coil help?

I have a 396 slightly built to about 400hp. car is fast, but I never race it. I was told my coil is bad. Is there any difference between a stock coil, and a high performance coil? My ignition is the original with points. The price difference is $20, not a lot of money, but I dont want to waste it if nothing is gained.
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Old May 3rd, 09, 1:20 PM
72sbc427 72sbc427 is offline
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Default Re: coil is bad, does a high performance coil help?

I have not used the Points style setup. But I can give warning that Accel parts tend to have issues. I had two brand new Accel Hei Super Coils that were bad with different symptoms right out of the box. Have yet to ever have an issue with an MSD part.
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  #3  
Old May 3rd, 09, 4:16 PM
67erminerag 67erminerag is offline
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Default Re: coil is bad, does a high performance coil help?

Thanks, the $40 one is an msd, the other one is a duralast. I think I will spend the extra 20 and get the msd.
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  #4  
Old May 3rd, 09, 7:43 PM
The Devil's advocate The Devil's advocate is offline
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Default Re: coil is bad, does a high performance coil help?

From Dave Ray, IgnitionMan,

"A "hot coil" usually isn't. Most induction type ignition systems (save the HEI, they actually change the dwell/coil voltage saturation), will make only the voltage the spark plug needs to bridge the plug gap, NO MORE, no matter the brand/style/input voltage used with it. Point systems in new to excellent condition usually make between 4 and 6 thousand volts at the spark plug, once again, NO MORE, as that is all the spark plug actually needs to make a spark between its electrodes. Therefore, "hot coils" usually don't help much. What does help a lot is a coil in good condition."

Just passing on info.

regqards,

Milton
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  #5  
Old May 4th, 09, 12:03 AM
SWHEATON SWHEATON is offline
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Smile Re: coil is bad, does a high performance coil help?

I use the pertronics 40011 little stronger 40k volt coil (stock i approx 30k-35k volts) thats black in color and same basic size & look of stock gm coil fitting the stock coild braket too for mild street perf motors still running points setups like yours.

It works great with those stock setups and is avail from summt/jegs,its approx $30-$35.

I have had one ofthose coils on my car (mild perf 396) since 2001 and it works great .

Ii have also installed approx 6-8 of those same coils in other peoples cars over the past 5-6 yrs still running points setups with no issues thus far ,they seem to be a very reliable coil.

I feel the additional power from thta sightly hotter coild is usefull in situations like a street perf motorthats not tuned so well that running a littl fat in stop /go traffic slightly fouling/carboning up the plugs.

Carbon /dirty partially fuel fouled plugs take more power to fire/jump the gap with a spark and thats where a fer more volts from a slightly hotter coild can help to avoid completely fouling a plus and or avoidning misfire when getting into it right after being in traffic where a few plugs partially fouled due to a fat carb fuel calibration or due to a motor using some oil partially fouling a few plugs that a slightly hotter coild may still be able to fire where a weaker coil may not.

But you need to ensure your also running hi quality low resistance ign parts like spiral core wires & cap-rotor with brass and or copper terminals too to get the full benefit of the hotter 40k volt coils power or it wont be transmitted to the plugs where needed most if your running cheaper hi resistance cap-rotor with AL terminals along with stock type cheap plug wires with very hi resistance carbon and or fiberglass cores.

If your into the stock looking plug wires pertronics make a great stock looking blk custom wire set for sbc/bbc with a low resistance inner spiral core thats approx 500 ohms per ft.

I installed a set of those wires on my bbc many yrs back too and they have worked great since,i also installed a few sets on other peoples car with similar goor results too.

I have had very good experiences with the multiple pertronics 40011 coils and multiple custom stock looking BBC plug wires i have installed over the yrs,never one issue or failure.

But i did read that a few of the earlier pertronics ignitor 1 or ignitor 2 elec points conversion kits/systems had a few issues /failures along the way for a few people here in t/chevelle ,but i never experienced that for myself.

Now Milton be nice now/LOL!!!!!!!!!

Scott
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1969 CHEVELLE SS396,ORIGINAL #'S MATCH,GOT IN 1978,(In 2001 rblt/bored original 396 .030 to 402)/M20/12BOLT/3:31'S
2006 YAMAHA 1700 ROADSTAR SILVERADO (1 owner ,GOT in 2009,4,700 miles/WK end fun)
1977 KAWASAKI KZ1000 (AM ORIGINAL OWNER ,GOT IN 1977,NOW has 29k miles/WK end fun)
2002 MAXIMA (DAILY DRIVER/1 owner,GOT 3/2013 w-44k miles)
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Old May 4th, 09, 2:17 PM
Schurkey Schurkey is offline
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Default Re: coil is bad, does a high performance coil help?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 67erminerag View Post
I was told my coil is bad. Is there any difference between a stock coil, and a high performance coil? My ignition is the original with points. The price difference is $20, not a lot of money, but I dont want to waste it if nothing is gained.
Too often the difference is...twenty dollars and a decal.

You'd be MUCH better off to ditch the points for an HEI rather than to install a "high performance" coil.

ANY ignition system--points or electronic--that uses a ballast resistor or resistor wire in series with the coil primary windings is inherently inferior to one that uses battery voltage or more through the primary windings to provide coil saturation.

The HEI is a battery-voltage system; most of the "spark boxes" will fire capacitors charged to hundreds of volts through the coil primary--although--the coil may not see hundreds of volts due to the coil's current draw.

Putting a "hot" coil on a points system is a waste of time, money, effort, and enthusiasm. Save your twenty bucks.
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Old May 4th, 09, 2:39 PM
gnicholson gnicholson is offline
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Default Re: coil is bad, does a high performance coil help?

x2
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  #8  
Old May 4th, 09, 3:12 PM
67erminerag 67erminerag is offline
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Default Re: coil is bad, does a high performance coil help?

Thank you all who responded, Last night I purchased the blaster 2 from autozone for $40. It was a little fatter than the original, so I cant get the bracket screw to reach, but the car is running fantastic. (at least for the short 15 minute ride that I took.) I was not looking to spend a lot of money on an HEI kit, I just wanted something reliable for the rare times this baby leaves its garage.
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Old May 4th, 09, 3:45 PM
72sbc427 72sbc427 is offline
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Default Re: coil is bad, does a high performance coil help?

I agree there are certainly better ways to go once you get some time and money to plan. Unfortunately in a pinch we tend to only have available what can be had at an auto parts store that is getting to be more and more like drive thru fast food. With the immediate choice between the house brand (duralast in this case), accel, and msd that are usually available on hand. I would go with msd first, duralast second, and accel only if i couldn't walk 10miles to get one of the others. lol Might not see a performance difference between the house brand and msd, but it seems the quality control is better. I think Accel has yet to learn the concept of quality control on coils.

SWHEATON - good to know on the pertronics stuff. I hadn't heard from anyone that had run some of the products long enuff to really give a rating on it. Had one guy that purchased the conversion kit, but he never came back to say how it went.
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Old May 4th, 09, 4:29 PM
SWHEATON SWHEATON is offline
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Smile Re: coil is bad, does a high performance coil help?

The pertronics coild looks stock ,is blk in color,and fits the stock coil braket fine . Thats why i suggested it to you becasue i know the MSD would not fit stock braket and or was wrong color too since your into the stock original look & on top of that also being a little cheaper too.

Scott
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1969 CHEVELLE SS396,ORIGINAL #'S MATCH,GOT IN 1978,(In 2001 rblt/bored original 396 .030 to 402)/M20/12BOLT/3:31'S
2006 YAMAHA 1700 ROADSTAR SILVERADO (1 owner ,GOT in 2009,4,700 miles/WK end fun)
1977 KAWASAKI KZ1000 (AM ORIGINAL OWNER ,GOT IN 1977,NOW has 29k miles/WK end fun)
2002 MAXIMA (DAILY DRIVER/1 owner,GOT 3/2013 w-44k miles)
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  #11  
Old May 4th, 09, 10:08 PM
The Devil's advocate The Devil's advocate is offline
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Default Re: coil is bad, does a high performance coil help?

I trust Dave far more than others that claim to know what they are speaking of, and don't.

I have been at Dave's shop when he has tested systems and coils, and I agree with what he said above, because I watched the testing going on. I wathced the exact same coil run first on points, then on a few different OEM and aftermarket electronic systems, then on an MSD, and there is quite a difference on output, from that same exact coil between the different rypes of systems.

Now, I wasn't "not nice", I just posted a reply by a VERY knowledgable person. He is right from what I have seen first hand, it isn't just blind speculation.

ALL of my 40 plus Dave's systems work flawlessly, and so do the other distributors he has done that are stock points, and electronic.

Regards,

Milton
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Old May 4th, 09, 10:18 PM
davis95 davis95 is offline
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Default Re: coil is bad, does a high performance coil help?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schurkey View Post
Too often the difference is...twenty dollars and a decal.

You'd be MUCH better off to ditch the points for an HEI rather than to install a "high performance" coil.

ANY ignition system--points or electronic--that uses a ballast resistor or resistor wire in series with the coil primary windings is inherently inferior to one that uses battery voltage or more through the primary windings to provide coil saturation.

The HEI is a battery-voltage system; most of the "spark boxes" will fire capacitors charged to hundreds of volts through the coil primary--although--the coil may not see hundreds of volts due to the coil's current draw.

Putting a "hot" coil on a points system is a waste of time, money, effort, and enthusiasm. Save your twenty bucks.
HEI's are so cheap ($100 complete from Advance with all new parts) I'm surprised that more folks with older cars don't switch to them. I can remember having to reset my points every so often with the handy dandy dwell meter. That piece needs to be in a museum now, not still helping to set points! I bought my HEI used for $10 and changed everything including the module and wound up with a killer distributor for less than $50. The stock coils are good to around 8 grand. That's all I need.
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Old May 5th, 09, 12:57 AM
SWHEATON SWHEATON is offline
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Smile Re: coil is bad, does a high performance coil help?

Well Milty,i was reall just kidding arround with you meaning you have mentioned in the past you dont lke pertronics products but since you didnt see thats what i meant and stated:

"Now, I wasn't "not nice", I just posted a reply by a VERY knowledgable person. He is right from what I have seen first hand, it isn't just blind speculation."


I guess i will chime back in with this.

No i dont claim to know everything but what i do state or suggest anytime i try to help out here in team chevelle is from 1st hand experience working on these cars/motors with the product/s etc i suggest for now over 38yrs .

So i dont not speculate at all ,i have also seen test data /charts/graphs etc in the npast with for example 1 mfgs 40k volt coil on a point vs elec ign system and what that showed was there was more voltage at the plugs with the 40k volt coil then the stock 30k volt factory coil on for a ex a points which is where i was comming from,i wasnt comparing anything other then stating the slightly hotter coild could maybe help out a bit if he was running the apporiate low resistance ign products that would allow more juice to flow to the plugs.

yes of course you will get considerably more juice from th ign systrem to the plugs with the same 40k volt coil on an up to daye elec ign vs points ign and i was not trying discredit that fact. But my point was simply with good low resistance ign parts like spiral core wires along with a low reistance copper or brass terminaled cap-rotor you could benefit from have a slightly hotter 40k volt coil like the 40k volt 1 i suggetsed that would also still fit the stock braket and is blk in color so it would look stock too.

I have had more then a few timies over the yrs when people were running stock points systems with low grade graphite wires and caps-rotors with al terminal and were having issue with fouled plugs esp with a slightly tired motor using some oil and a fat carb fuelcalibration to boot. I would simply clean the partially fouled plugs that were still in decent shaped and then would install the low resistance plug wires with low resistance cap & rotor and slightly hotter coil too and all thier fouling plugs issue were gone,period.

Sometimes all thats needed is a little more juice then a normal stock coil can deliver getting to the plugs which the better lower rsistance ign parts allowed the slightly hotter coild to deliver. I am sure it wasent that much more power to the plugs from past data i had seen on it but its just enough to help at times to make the difference which i have again experienced 1st hand,not speculation that this helped out and corrected the problem at the time,it was 1st hand experience.

So please stop saying i speculate because thats not true at all which is to me is calling me a bull****ter and or lier and i dont work that way at all and take very big offence of you even going there with your responce. Its not right at all for you to do that & you need to stop the bull****. All your doing here is passing along info you think you interprit correctly from others which you may be correct on & likely are becasue your no dummy,thats for sure. But at least my info/suggestions i make are comming directly from 38yrs of 1st hand exp wrenching these cars/motors/carbs/etc & working with these products too.

You said that same thing last time we got into this the pertronics issue here about me speculating etc,thats why i tried to kid arround a little with you this time but i guess your too dense to see it or maybe your just a crab ass/LOL!!!!!!!

And hey, i agree with you that pertronics did in fact have some issues with some of their products at times but pertronics priducts are not all as bad as you make them out to be either. Some of thier products are very good and i and other friends of mine have all had many yrs of good experiences with thier coils & plug wires etc ,even a few with the pertronics ignitor 2 ign systems have had no issues when i asked about that . And again most of this is comming from my 1st hand exp installing these products and or knowing people that installed them in thier cars and asking them how the pertronics products were performing in thier cars.

And again,as i stated the other time i totally agree that David Ray mfg's/builds a great product that i would buy in a heartbeat if i needed a dist like he builds,they are a very good hi qulity product. I was just thinking i the other day i may have a customer in the near future that needs one of his dist so i will actually have a chance to finally do buisness with Dave having him setup the adv curve and vac adv like i want it and try one of his distributors out. Oh boy,now your going to blacklist me with Dave because i pissed you off so i cant buy a dist from him/LOL!!!!!!

Scoitt
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SCOTT
1969 CHEVELLE SS396,ORIGINAL #'S MATCH,GOT IN 1978,(In 2001 rblt/bored original 396 .030 to 402)/M20/12BOLT/3:31'S
2006 YAMAHA 1700 ROADSTAR SILVERADO (1 owner ,GOT in 2009,4,700 miles/WK end fun)
1977 KAWASAKI KZ1000 (AM ORIGINAL OWNER ,GOT IN 1977,NOW has 29k miles/WK end fun)
2002 MAXIMA (DAILY DRIVER/1 owner,GOT 3/2013 w-44k miles)
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  #14  
Old May 5th, 09, 10:45 AM
The Devil's advocate The Devil's advocate is offline
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Default Re: coil is bad, does a high performance coil help?

My name isn't "Milty, it is Milton.

As far as you being a knowledgeable person, I have no opinion, as I do not know you. I do know Dave, and have been present when testing was done, so, that IS what I believe, exactly what I saw.

"So please stop saying i speculate because thats not true at all which is to me is calling me a bull****ter and or lier and i dont work that way at all and take very big offence of you even going there with your responce. Its not right at all for you to do that & you need to stop the bull****". Well, I don't see anyone but YOU calling yourslf one of those, I didn't say a word about you.

If you are so insecutre you have to be the self proclaijmed guru on everything, so be it, but, I only posted a reply by someone I know to be a knowledgeable person in this field, that responded to an e/mail I sent in enquiry to this topic, nothing more.

YOU are the one that created, and is continuing the problems in this matter, not me, not Dave.

As far as I am concerned, I really don't care about all this, I know better than to believe a coil, ANY coil, can make more volts from one to another, when there aren't the "drivers" (as Dave calls them) behind that coil setup.

You please believe what you do, and allow me to believe what I do, because I have proved it to myself, via a very saavy IgnitionMan.

And, if I remember correctly from many years past, PerTronix coil boxes came with the words "40,000 VOLTS", then, just below that, this, the word (AVAILABLE). That doesn't mean the coil makes 40,000 volts, most don't, UNLESS the drivers in the system are there to force the coil to do so.

I'm done with this.

Regards,

Milton, NOT "MILTY".
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