[GRN69CHV]

Reading the recent threads on roller lifter failures, I have a couple of observations / questions. To the best of my knowledge, none of the hyd roller lifters have pressurized oil lube to the bearings, this includes the factory lifters. Is this correct? Read an article on the Comp website - in short what I got out of it was that the increase in windage control and pan evac systems has led to increased roller lifter failure due to a lot less splash. If I am correct about the factory hyd rollers ( and even the aftermarkets for that matter, have Comp 854's in my motor now) not having pressure lubed bearings, then it would make sense.

Is it probable that roller lifter failure is most likely to occur as spring rates approach a certain limit - say 500+ open?

Considering the low/none failure rate of hyd roller lifters, I am guessing the longevity of such may be from a couple of reasons, lower spring pressures and constant contact of the roller with the cam due to preload.

For the guys that have had failures, it may be beneficial to know the cam specs, spring specs and if a rev kit was installed.

[CDN SS]

Interesting you raise some good points , I suspect the hydraulic roller has better life because of spring rate and preload ..........however will be interesting to see if a common theme with these failures of the solid roller .....windage control and pan evac .could be something to that

I would like to know if these failures came from engines that were idled or driven at low rpm alot ?? also what about lash specs , do tight lash cams have less failures than traditonal .024-.028 cams ??

Will be pulling the intake soon to check my Isky Red's .no issues but now want to know how they doing assume remove and check roller for any roughness

[jbird]

I will also be pulling my intake and checking the red zones. I am not pulling the intake just for that purpose, I think I have a sealing issue. Anyway I will report my findings. I only have about 90 1/8th mile passes so they should be like new.

[Wolfplace]

Without question a rev kit is a good idea on a solid roller for the street.
Only problem is there are so many people running without them it is a hard sell & hard to argue it is a necessity.

As for spring pressures, with a solid roller the worst thing you can do is to run too little
I would always err on the heavy side of spring on a solid roller.
There is no question that the lobes have gotten more aggressive & this contributes to the problem both in pressure needs & in the pressure the roller sees when being raised.
If you look at almost any roller cam you will find the most wear on the flank of the opening side.
The reason is this is where you have the highest pressure angle or fastest rate of acceleration.
You are literally trying to push the lifter out the side of the lifter bore.
Now, at this point you are not seeing total spring pressure so the argument of spring pressures alone causing lifter failure are not really valid but it for sure has to be part of the problem.

There is no question that more spring & higher rates of acceleration put more load on the needles, the guys that are running 4-500 on the seat & 1200+ open are changing lifters damn near every weekend & there was one builder I know of for a fact that was not getting more than a few runs be it on the dyno or track without damage no matter what he was using.

I have heard the Pro Stock guys are changing lifters very frequently too & most are using Jesel or LSM $2500+ lifters..

You cannot compare a hyd roller lobe to a solid lobe in terms of aggressiveness though both are getting more-so.

There is a lot to be said for running the old "soft" lobes on the street but you are going to be giving up some power. How much I can't say.

I think the bottom line is it all depends on what you are wanting & if you are willing to accept the fact that a solid roller while very "cool" is not a stick it in the engine & forget it piece.
It will take more maintenance & is something you have to be willing to do.
If not it is probably not something you should be entertaining.

The deal is for each one that has had an issue with good parts there are a ton more that have had nothing but good results.
You have to look no further than the advertisements on the testing done on Red Zone lifters by Isky
They have been tested at "back to back" 1000 miles at about 9000 RPM, not 50,000 miles at 5000 RPM,,
And this is still one of the best lifters out there but certainly not indestructible,,

All that said, I am cautiously optimistic that the new "needleless" Red Zones will be as good as they appear.
The next place to be looking is at the Schubeck if he can get the delivery issues sorted out along with any "new part glitchs" I can see this being be a killer deal too.

[GOSFAST]

I've brought this issue up here in the past, "warning" many that contrary to what the manufacturer's AND the aftermarket seller's of ALL these "bullet-proof" components are "raving" about, that they ALL still have their pitfalls! If you call on the mfr's, their response is "we have no issues". We're fed up totally with hearing this phrase. You have to put things in perspective here. If these fairly new "pressure-fed" lifters were a so-called cure for failure I can say that is merely some more "manufacturer's rhetoric", period. You wouldn't see many people, like Schubeck and others, trying to still solve the problems.
They MAY have extended the time frame for now, but they didn't cure it!

I have what I consider to be high number of "failed" pieces lying around here. And these include the "big-names". Remember here in N.Y. we have a 100 or more builder's here right in this area and get tons of feedback. Most out there never get a true picture of what's really happening!

And to take input from the mfr's./vendor's is really a stretch! I don't ever remember hearing "oh yea, that's a bad piece we make"! That'll be the day!

The rest of this issue is kind of important. From a builder's standpoint, you simply try to evaluate as much of the available info we do get from them, the rest we evaluate from our own R & D programs. Only here we can rely upon it to be the truth!

There's a "line in the sand" so to speak where you're high-horsepower unit is really a "race-only" unit that you simply choose to street drive. I "battle" with
many customers of my own here over this very issue. You wouldn't attempt to drive a "Pro-Stock" unit on the street? (I don't think!)

Now having cleared that up, there's a few things we've come to realize working basically with BB's only. Let me list them one at a time here.

1-The single most important area with respect to these failures is valve springs, period. Problems here will literally destroy the best lifters available.

2-To extend component life you MUST use the lightest parts available. Many of our own "street" units have Titanium valves. Either with inserts or lash caps. EVERYTHING "lives" longer with these valves.

3-DO NOT use springs with dampers, use actual "triples" on these type units, when possible. The "titanium" that gets peeled away from the constant contact between the retainer/damper will destroy the rollers/axles fairly quickly right along with the needle bearings in the rockers as well!

4-For street use, we prefer not using "girdles". (This depends solely on the working spring pressure here. I would expand on this part if this wasn't so long here!) The "old-style" standard rockers, again when possible, or the shaft mounts will actually let you use an "on-the-car" tester to "pull-down" the springs. This should be done with just about every oil change. By the way, while I mention oil change, LOOK at the oil and LOOK inside the filter, very carefully cutting it open, EVERY oil change.

5-No shims under the springs, cups/locators only! Shims go under the cups if necessary.

6-BB "street-units" have huge benefits from "rev-kits", this we've known for some years now. I personally believe this is extremely important for survival, the constant "pounding" on the lobes from the lash leads to premature failures.

7-Absolutely NO gear drives with solid rollers, the drive-line harmonics will also "eat" these lifters, very similar to "detonation", also very destructive to the valve train.

8-THIS IS CRITICAL: If you have ANY substantial changes in the unit, STOP immediately and if you must, TAKE IT APART!!!!!! (Specifically lash changes, this is an indication of an impending issue that IS going to surface! If it's an across-the-board" deal, you're probably OK, if it's a single, you're probably a "dead-duck" at that point.)

9-There are many more you can add on your own here, but to this very day, we have "zero" issues with "solid" rollers!

Hope some of these "tips" hit home, in my opinion, you can never be too careful! Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. My own reasoning for using and concentrating on the hyd-roller platform for the street is directly related to these issues showing up here. I have some units that have been in service for over 5 or 6 years now that have been back for "maintenance" (read that as freshen-up) and in every instance have reused the hyd-roller lifters. These are the units, BB's, making between 730 and 760 HP and are "totally" comfortable "drivers". These consist of the 854's like GRN69CHV (Vince I believe) mentioned above. Not a single wheel/axle gone "south" to date. I even have them on the "cast" blanks, although we've changed that now. "Steel cam/cast gear" combo's the way to go.

Double P.S. Just to give some more insight to what we see during the year, this past week (before Christmas) was spent testing a N/A SB with 2 cam changes using 400# seat pressure and almost 1400# open pressure. These are NOT inflated numbers. And this was still using "babbitted" BB cam bearing journals, no rollers here yet. It was stripped twice for inspection and not a single issue! I do rely heavily on Comp Cams to keep things together. And no
"pressure-fed" oiling here! I do understand the limited use!

[BigRed-L72]

Originally Posted by GOSFAST

DO NOT use springs with dampers, use actual "triples" on these type units, when possible. The "titanium" that gets peeled away from the constant contact between the retainer/damper will destroy the rollers/axles fairly quickly right along with the needle bearings in the rockers as well!

Having seen this a few times myself, I have a question: Are there any problems with simply pulling the damper out ?

Do you actually use triple springs with the Hyd rollers? and if so what PN/Brand ? I`d be interested to know.

I`ve been pro hyd roller for some years now

[69-CHVL]

Originally Posted by BigRed-L72

I`ve been pro hyd roller for some years now

After some of the recent threads, I am too.

[GOSFAST]

Originally Posted by BigRed-L72

Having seen this a few times myself, I have a question: Are there any problems with simply pulling the damper out ?

Do you actually use triple springs with the Hyd rollers? and if so what PN/Brand ? I`d be interested to know.

I`ve been pro hyd roller for some years now

Hi Steve, we haven't used "triples" on any hyd-retro's and probably never will. Comp's been still bugging us to test with the "bee-hives", so far we don't need them. We may get there but not yet! I had a discussion with Carmen at the "The Vette Doctors" a few weeks ago and they were having issues also with getting the RPM's they needed from some new Vettes. They went over to the "bee-hives" and it totally solved their problem! These are "late" Vettes, "street-cars", running in the 7's & 8's (1/4 mile) now. These "bee-hive" springs helped get them there.

This may be the only way to go, but as I said, we don't need them at the moment. We can make above 730 HP minimum @ 6100+ on the dyno as it is now with the 928 Comp (dual) springs AND even with the chrome-moly retainers still. This is on what we call our "base" 540 pump-gas unit using under a 9.75:1 C.R. We are able to get to 6600+ RPM to date. We do have a number of units out using the "titanium" retainers and don't see the "wear & tear" on them as much with the hydraulic-rollers as you find with the solid-rollers.

You should not simply remove the dampers, they are an incorporated part of the spring design to make it function correctly as a single unit! Sort of a "control" piece for lack of a better word. Controls the harmonics!

The springs we use on most of the solid rollers are the 943's, the 947's, and the 948's. The only issue I have with Comp is they don't have the locators for the 1.625 triples, I have to use Manley's (locators) here. Many of our own spring combo's are also ordered "piece-meal" by us as individuals. We've done this for years now. Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. Most of this info pertains to the BB's with the exception of the 943 springs. Also, some of that "wear & tear" with the retainers is simply unavoidable, it comes with the territory and MUST be checked occasionally. But like I stated above, on all these solid-rollers, if they can be built without the "dampers", why not? Removes one more "pending" issue!

[GRN69CHV]

Kind of went from roller lifter discussion to spring discussion, which I know is interelated, but, I was hoping for more response from anyone who has had roller lifter failure to post what their application was (lifter brand, cam spec, spring presure, lift, lash, rev kit installed or not) so we could get a feel for some trend. Also, I would lke to validate whether I am correct regarding the lack of pressurized oil to the roller bearings on hyd roller lifters - maybe I'll just call Comp and ask (hope I get someone to answer the call that even has a clue what I am talking about).

I do wonder/suspect that there is a greater correlation between higher spring pressures and lack of a rev kit. Much in the same way rod bearings get hammered in a motor that detonates regularly, I would suspect the initial impact on the bearing would be severe on a high seat pressure application due to the loading/unloading. This may be the reason hyd rollers live for several hundred thousand miles, despite having just spash lubrication.

You almost wonder if installation of a rev kit on a hyd roller motor may be the answer to valve float. With a billet core cam, you could add 100+# on the lifter body itself and take that load off the plunger. Although I will note this is impractical due to the rev kit spring having to sit on the snap ring. A realistic application could be employed by redesigning the top of the lifter body to have an external land when machined to act as a spring seat.

[67T56Elky]

Trying to absorb all this and learn something here...

Solid Roller with 300/500#, Crower severe duty rollers, Jesel SS system.
Not to hijack, but my machinist insisted on restrictors so the valve cover area doesnt get too much oil pumped up there if I understood him right. Others say to remove them. I have a Milodon 7 quart pan with the trays...Do I have anything to worry about (havent fired it yet)?
Using Comp Nextek springs fwiw.

[BigRed-L72]

Originally Posted by GOSFAST

You should not simply remove the dampers, they are an incorporated part of the spring design to make it function correctly as a single unit! Sort of a "control" piece for lack of a better word. Controls the harmonics!

I figurered that`s what you`d say, oh well...I`ll just round off and polish the edges of the damper on the retainer end.
Thanks

I firmly believe that the cam design itself has alot to do with longevity in the valve train. That and spring pressure of course.

[GOSFAST]

Originally Posted by GRN69CHV

Kind of went from roller lifter discussion to spring discussion, which I know is interelated, but, I was hoping for more response from anyone who has had roller lifter failure to post what their application was (lifter brand, cam spec, spring presure, lift, lash, rev kit installed or not) so we could get a feel for some trend. Also, I would lke to validate whether I am correct regarding the lack of pressurized oil to the roller bearings on hyd roller lifters - maybe I'll just call Comp and ask (hope I get someone to answer the call that even has a clue what I am talking about).

I do wonder/suspect that there is a greater correlation between higher spring pressures and lack of a rev kit. Much in the same way rod bearings get hammered in a motor that detonates regularly, I would suspect the initial impact on the bearing would be severe on a high seat pressure application due to the loading/unloading. This may be the reason hyd rollers live for several hundred thousand miles, despite having just spash lubrication.

You almost wonder if installation of a rev kit on a hyd roller motor may be the answer to valve float. With a billet core cam, you could add 100+# on the lifter body itself and take that load off the plunger. Although I will note this is impractical due to the rev kit spring having to sit on the snap ring. A realistic application could be employed by redesigning the top of the lifter body to have an external land when machined to act as a spring seat.

Originally Posted by 67T56Elky

Trying to absorb all this and learn something here...

Solid Roller with 300/500#, Crower severe duty rollers, Jesel SS system.
Not to hijack, but my machinist insisted on restrictors so the valve cover area doesnt get too much oil pumped up there if I understood him right. Others say to remove them. I have a Milodon 7 quart pan with the trays...Do I have anything to worry about (havent fired it yet)?
Using Comp Nextek springs fwiw.

Originally Posted by BigRed-L72

I figurered that`s what you`d say, oh well...I`ll just round off and polish the edges of the damper on the retainer end.
Thanks

I firmly believe that the cam design itself has alot to do with longevity in the valve train. That and spring pressure of course.

Let me take this one at a time here.

1-GRN69CHV-My personal opinion is the fact that the roller never leaves the lobe adds "big-time" to the overall life of the entire roller setup. Good reason for the rev-kit here (on solids)! But, don't believe a rev-kit on this HR setup will have any effect on the RPM range! And just you try to get ANY engineer to redesign an already "engineered" item, GOOD LUCK on that one!

2-67T56Elky-(2 part) Spring pressure (500#) sounds a little light?
First, with respect to the Nex-Tec springs I have an issue about Manley always dropping a part and then substituting it with another, that issue troubles me most times! Makes me wonder if there were problems with the original number.
Secondly, and most important, oil restrictors serve no purpose in street cars and actually cause premature spring wear/failure. It's the oil, that gets up to the valve area, that gets to "carry" the heat from the spring. Nothing else "cools" the spring except the oil! You may want to "kick" this around with your builder but make certain you read my P.S. below!

3-BigRed-L72-This procedure, deburring/polishing, should be done to EVERY valve spring you install, this is actually an "old-school" rule. Don't know too many however following that rule today! Excellent idea!

Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. NEVER get into a debate with your machinist/builder, a discussion is fine but he's the last guy on the planet that you want to argue with while he's building your unit!

[67T56Elky]

I hear you on the discussion with the machinist, hes kind of cut and dry, dont wanna pizz him off in case I need him in the future....Has a pretty good rep. The spring pressures are approximate, EXACT I cant remember, they were set up a few years back.
Just dont want to fubar this motor,(I could never afford to replace it) but dont want to undo someone elses work that has lightyears more experience than myself. .....
Thanks for the response.

[Rowdy]

Admittedly, my search is in its infancy, but I don't see a lot of offerings in the BBC Rev kits. Isky website is all over praising their laurels, as it should, since Ed Iskendarian patented them nearly 50 years ago. However, they only make them for SBC's.

The solid roller bounce, has to be the leading candidate in their destruction. Regardless of the method of oiling, anytime there is a seperation between any drive and driven component, the driven (roller in this case), must catch back up to the speed of the drive (cam lobe). Inevitibly, one or more areas, initially limited to the lead in ramps, will be subject to slippage as the lobe accelerates the roller. Considering the aggressiveness of todays ramps and the increased spring pressures, it's easy to imagine an oscillation type bounce, albeit limited to the +/-.020" lash.

Now, on the purely speculation side of things, relate the roller slippage, as it initiates contact with the lead in ramp, with what is experienced with wheelhop (or to a lesser extent, open wheel racing tire to tire contact). Repeated "dribbling" the roller on any part of the base circle or ramp will eventually result in scuffing of either the roller or lobe or both. This scuffing, basically traction between the surfaces, would progressively worsen the condition. Eventually, surface "cupping" would totally destabilize the valvetrain. Opening the door for all kinds of crazy sh!t to start breaking.

Although hypothetical, it's a theory that, at the very least, could be plausible.

The proven durability of hydraulic rollers, would tend to support the importance of continual roller contact, however, the very engineering that is responsible for this characteristic, has it's own inherent limitations. The first being the incremental variation of the camshafts specifications themselves (preload). To a greater extent, the rpm "ceiling" associated with hydraulic lifters in general.

If it were as simple as that, I'm sure that there would be rev kits in every product line. My own experience, almost contradicts everything mentioned
above. I'm reffering to the Lunati solid rollers with the spring loaded cross bar. In an earlier thread, I had mentioned successfully running the Lunati rollers for several thousand miles on an already thoroughly beaten on 427, then re-using them following a complete rebuild for 4 more years without incident. The contradiction, I incorrectly associated these with promoting continuous roller contact. The fact is, the spring is responsible for doing the exact opposite. Notably, their purpose is to physically lift the follower off the cam to permit cam change without removing the manifold.

I could research the exact spring pressures, as I am a pack rat, and am certain that I still have all of the information. But, this really is not necessary, since there would be considerable difference between those (.595/.612 lift) and my current springs (.714/.714 lift).

As I contemplate rectifying my current dilemma (wasted #6 exhaust solid roller and cam lobe), I have already determined that a rev kit will be incorporated. For the most part, the damaged components will simply be replaced with like pieces (Isky custom ground billet cored solid roller/Red Zones), however, dialog has already been initiated with Mike Lewis to pursue the possibility of being another Guinea Pig for the needleless Red Zones, despite the fact that I do not believe that they have actually been released as of yet. Furthermore, I am conceeding my bull headed insistance to run a gear drive. Hopefully, a suitable belt drive will be in the cards, not that I am anti-timing chain, but if engine harmonics transfering to my valvetrain are even remotely responsible, I vow to eliminate them.

[DOUG G]

This is some great reading and scary now that I'm installing a solid roller. The guy that re-did my heads likes lots of spring pressure (Looks like thats a good thing). I don't know the exact numbers but can find out.
This is a smallblock build but I guess it all still pertains ?
I am going to be running a XE series Comp Cam and Lunati SR lifters and have my fingures crossed.

Anything I should watch for ?