CNC Porting-AFR, Brodix, Dart, Edelbrock, etc. - Chevelle Tech
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  #1  
Old Nov 26th, 06, 10:37 PM
GOSFAST GOSFAST is offline
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Default CNC Porting-AFR, Brodix, Dart, Edelbrock, etc.

For everyone on this site that's been following the constant "battles" between many of the most popular head manufacturer's over "who's head's the best?", I've put a link below to a site that will offer a real eye-opening run-down from some of the best head porters in the nation about almost ALL aspects of the entire operation and some really deep details.

A good friend of mine, who "hangs" around there contacted me about it this weekend when this particular post showed up there, and directed me there.
I hope the link works the way I figure. If not, I'm sure you'll get there one way or another.

If you have time this is most definitely one "red-hot" topic. Believe me, this WILL fill in many or all of the blanks. Thanks Gary in N.Y.

P.S. I'm going say this while I'm here, it will pretty much explain why high-end units cannot use ANY fully CNC'd option to be in any sort of "serious" competition. I've posted many times here before, we order very few CNC'd pieces, ALL of our own "serious" high-end units are finished with the old
"tried & true" in-house "hand-porting". I could mention some names up here, that many would recognize immediately, that we've done some "major" final porting for on units that were destined for the "record-books", but I'm not going there now. I've been "hammered" a while back for "name-dropping", and it's not needed here anyway.

http://www.speedtalk.com/forum/viewt...57133d75a9641d
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Old Nov 27th, 06, 12:03 AM
VinnyLSS572 VinnyLSS572 is offline
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Default Re: CNC Porting-AFR, Brodix, Dart, Edelbrock, etc.

Who would you recommend in NY for head porting?Please drop names!
Vinny
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  #3  
Old Nov 27th, 06, 12:29 AM
Wolfplace Wolfplace is offline
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Default Re: CNC Porting-AFR, Brodix, Dart, Edelbrock, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GOSFAST View Post
For everyone on this site that's been following the constant "battles" between many of the most popular head manufacturer's over "who's head's the best?", I've put a link below to a site that will offer a real eye-opening run-down from some of the best head porters in the nation about almost ALL aspects of the entire operation and some really deep details.

A good friend of mine, who "hangs" around there contacted me about it this weekend when this particular post showed up there, and directed me there.
I hope the link works the way I figure. If not, I'm sure you'll get there one way or another.

If you have time this is most definitely one "red-hot" topic. Believe me, this WILL fill in many or all of the blanks. Thanks Gary in N.Y.

P.S. I'm going say this while I'm here, it will pretty much explain why high-end units cannot use ANY fully CNC'd option to be in any sort of "serious" competition. I've posted many times here before, we order very few CNC'd pieces, ALL of our own "serious" high-end units are finished with the old
"tried & true" in-house "hand-porting". I could mention some names up here, that many would recognize immediately, that we've done some "major" final porting for on units that were destined for the "record-books", but I'm not going there now. I've been "hammered" a while back for "name-dropping", and it's not needed here anyway.

http://www.speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4579&sid=0d6377a64d3eda503f57133d7 5a9641d
=
Gary,
At first I was not going to bother to answer this but I don't feel it is fair not to so,,,

With all due respect, you are comparing apples & oranges here.
You are comparing the heads that some of the absolute best in the business do against what are good 'out of the box" affordable cylinder head that most here can buy & use.
The post your are referring to is talking about cylinder heads you are not going to touch for less than $5-$10,000 in some cases.

How exactly does this help the average person here that wants to know what is a great head for a decent price they can buy & use?

I have said this before & I will say it again.
In my opinion, for an OUT OF THE BOX head that delivers you are going to be hard pressed to beat the AFR heads.
And you will find that the AFR CNC program is one of the best finished cylinders heads in the $3000 class out there, on this almost no one will disagree with even if they feel another head is worth more power.

Are there other heads that will kill it in the correct hands?
Without a doubt, give someone like Larry Meaux, Darin Morgan or Curtis Boggs just to name a few a set of heads for your project & you will see a huge difference in power.
But these guys do heads for record holding Comp eliminator cars, SS cars, even Pro stock stuff & these are not a $2000 to $3000 set of heads.

And as for CNC heads not being capable of being a great head this is pure crap.
It all depends on what you start with & how well it is copied.
Here is another post on there you might wish to read
http://www.speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4367&highlight=box

In particular this by Curtis
"You can almost always get a better head buy using a cnc head then
having the the RIGHT guy go back through them, .. CnC machines
are just copy machines, .. it doesn't mean what they cut is perfict.

It's up to the person who designs the port to start with, .. . as in the
case of the original post here by Larry M, .. he's designed a nasty
cylinder head, ..
now if he would put THAT in a CnC port it would kill anything else out there.

Curtis
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Or this by Larry:
"purely out-of-box..absolutely no touching them,
the AFR 24 deg Large Oval Port heads
..might be worth looking into ? "


I guess it all comes down to what we are talking about here.
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  #4  
Old Nov 27th, 06, 1:50 AM
greg_moreira greg_moreira is offline
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Default Re: CNC Porting-AFR, Brodix, Dart, Edelbrock, etc.

I totally agree. Were comparing two different deals here when speaking out of the box(whether cast or CNC vs hand ported). At the same time.....just cause some people can definitely get better numbers from hand porting..that dont mean nothin either. Give me a full CNC set of AFR heads(for example) and let me hand port em. Ill ruin them(not a head porter, so doing it by hand doesnt even come close to being on top in this situation).......


And even if we are just talkin about CNC stuff alone.....Yeah there is manufacturing errors with everything from time to time. So its possible to beleive that every CNC head wont come out perfect every time. It happens. Most of the good guys will take care of it.

And finally, although I do realize the caliber of some of the guys over there as well as some of the people mentioned......it is still just guys talking on a message board just like here, and voicing some opinions. If we say somethin different, and then one of us guys goes over to that board and tells them to come here and read it......it wont make them all wrong just cause they read our opinions. On the same token....a different opinion over on that site doesnt necessarily make everybody or anybody over here wrong. Their opinions technically hold just as much water as ours, as they are sharing info just the same way we are. But with that said....I dont think anybody would argue anyways that a top dog porter couldnt purpose build and hand work a set of heads to get better numbers than an out of the box deal meant for a wide audience. So its hard to find the arguement anyways.
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  #5  
Old Nov 27th, 06, 2:13 AM
cuisinartvette cuisinartvette is offline
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Default Re: CNC Porting-AFR, Brodix, Dart, Edelbrock, etc.

Unless you had a true expert working your heads over Id recommend CNC as it seems consistency port to port would be hard to beat. I had mine hand done but I know the guys rep and hes a freak when it comes to porting. If I hadnt ofknown him I would have gone CNC. Its a safe bet.
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  #6  
Old Nov 27th, 06, 2:20 AM
kirkwoodken kirkwoodken is offline
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Default Re: CNC Porting-AFR, Brodix, Dart, Edelbrock, etc.

I told a porter he could replicate ports with a three spindle Bridgeport equipped with a TruTrace head in 1970!! He told me I was nuts. The TruTrace 3D head would allow copying the shape of anything within .0005". Millions of aircraft parts were made with similar setups.

The beauty of the hydralic tracer is it doesn't need a programer, only a part to copy. What is done now with revolving and tilting tables, was once done with trunion setups that had to be turned manually.

No matter what product you make, heads or widgets, your product will only be as good as your tooling, and you tooling will only be as good as your tool maker.

How you arrive at the shape of a port is insignificant as long as it's the right shape. CNC or hand to fit a template will still be the same. To quote the famous French porter Notso Freeair: "I just remove everything that doesn't look like a port".
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  #7  
Old Nov 27th, 06, 7:14 AM
BillsCamino BillsCamino is online now
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Default Re: CNC Porting-AFR, Brodix, Dart, Edelbrock, etc.

CNC ported...by guess who...no complaints here.





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  #8  
Old Nov 27th, 06, 8:51 AM
GOSFAST GOSFAST is offline
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Default Apples to Oranges???

There's no a mention of "comparison" anywhere in my original post above. The post (link) merely gives some insight into the entire "CNC" issue AND general business practices. It's like I've said all along, over here we don't really care about "CNC'ing" OR brands. Makes no difference to us. If you
"read-between-the-lines" you'll get an education more from a business standpoint.

I know many here believe I "hammer" one major player most often, well let me "continue" that saga. The very same customer, who chose these heads, CANNOT get his spark plugs (2) in his newest cylinder heads. Originally he had the factory iron heads in place, then replaced those with a pair of Edelbrocks, not an issue anywhere with that upgrade, not one single issue! Now he goes with the present set and he CANNOT get a couple of the spark plugs to go. This customer is no "dummy" and has more "savvy" than most. He proceed to modify the excellent looking pipes, I believe it's a custom set of George's from "Kook's Headers", with a 5# ball-peen hammer and a pipe. He was never told about the plug relocation! He did ask that specific question and was told that there would be no problem in that area, "if the Edelbrocks were Ok then these SHOULD go". In all fairness he was told about "raising" the headers. He knew that would "fly". So for now he has gone "backwards" 2 steps, he has a car that wont "fall-out-of-a-tree" and one can no longer (for now) do the show circuit. The headers appear as they were hit by locomotive at a railroad crossing! (They WILL be fixed, I'm sure!)

(Add) At the other site pay particular attention about the remark pertaining to the early "Dart" heads from Maskin's. "THERE WERE/ARE NO GUIDES IN THESE 360 BB HEADS"! I have 2 sets here to do now, the guides are integral "Aluminum" with some .060" bronze liners AND this is the best part, they use 5/8" "short-reach" peanut plug-tapered seat plugs. In Aluminum threads with no plug inserts! Downright "cheap" for lack of a better word.
Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. The manufacturers, and this includes just about ALL of them, use these issues, "CNC'ing", inflated CFM numbers, etc. to sell heads. This isn't anything new!

Double P.S. With respect to AFR's "dilemma" with the premature "valve tip" wear issues, I have a number of Manley's here with the identical issues. It was a few years ago, I saved them in a box for my customer but he never picked them up. Ater speaking to K.C. down at Manley about it their first response, (quote) "those are not our valves" (end quote). They had the
"Manley" name imprinted. I sent them down and what do know, "lo and behold" they're Manleys! We knew what caused the issue and they finally confirmed our suspicions. The "key" part here, they involved the Dart SB iron
"assembled" heads sold through "Summit". This was a while back, and I would assume it's been corrected by now. So you see, we're not predjuice, I tell it like it is, it's like that proverbial saying "don't kill the messenger because you don't like the message"! If you "link" this last issue to the "missing guides" above in the "old" 360's, it's a "message" about the business aspect. If you're "savvy" you get it, if not "oh well"!
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  #9  
Old Nov 27th, 06, 9:05 AM
bigjimzlll bigjimzlll is offline
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Default Re: CNC Porting-AFR, Brodix, Dart, Edelbrock, etc.

Is there any mertit to the "pros" saying that AFR does flow bench trick porting? Meaning they flow well on the flow bench but do not make the equillivant power on the track? I've heard that before on other boards.

I realize they have their perfered head....and that maybe the reason they seem to PooPoo the AFR's...but in all truth, that post just made the water cloudier, in my mind anyways.

Whats was with the comment that if you contact one of the "pros" you can get one of their heads for around the same price as a CNC'd shelf head?

If I was planning on some Top Sportsman, Top Comp or comp eliminator racing you can be sure one of the "pros" would be contacted, but for shoe polish racing, the shelf AFR's will be my choice.
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Old Nov 27th, 06, 9:17 AM
Harold Sutton Harold Sutton is offline
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Default Re: CNC Porting-AFR, Brodix, Dart, Edelbrock, etc.

There is no way for us with only a passing knowledge to know which heads will or will not make tons of power. We know what the flow bench numbers are but that really doesn't give you a true picture of what a particular head will do. The type of flow bench and the procedure can give very different results depending on who does the testing. I have a set of AFRs and am very pleased with the way the car runs even though the flow bench didn't show them to be up to par. I don't see how even heads that might run a tenth better are a bargain if they crack in a critical area and ruin an entire head. The AFRs on my son's have already produced a 9.46 with a 3.50 rear gear and a 1.80 powerglide, and 9.31 with a 2.10 first geared 400 Turbo so they can't be too lame. I'm going to gear the motor properly sometime before next season and see what it is really capable of. The only way of getting the max out of a combination is to get a data logger and TNT like Todd does. I'd bet his tweeking could find three tenths or more in any of our cars. Frankly i had already read those posts over on speedtalk and didn't think they gave up any big head porting secrets but all of it is interesting.

Last edited by Harold Sutton; Nov 27th, 06 at 9:35 AM.
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Old Nov 27th, 06, 9:55 AM
godsend godsend is offline
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Default Re: CNC Porting-AFR, Brodix, Dart, Edelbrock, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillsCamino View Post
CNC ported...by guess who...no complaints here.





Your first pic has a scratch in the surface.. it will leak?
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  #12  
Old Nov 27th, 06, 12:18 PM
kirkwoodken kirkwoodken is offline
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Default Re: CNC Porting-AFR, Brodix, Dart, Edelbrock, etc.

Let me address the AFR/header thing. When I called Hooker about their headers not fitting the AFR 210, the reply was: We are not going to change our header design for one set of heads. I answered by saying AFR sells a lot of heads; maybe it would be good business if they modified the fixtures and bending. (The left side never has been any good) Maybe Hooker has their money invested in some other head company.

I do think that ALL the head companies need to get with ALL the header benders to produce products we can bolt together. Isn't that what SEMA should be about?

Also, there is absolutly no reason that I can see for AFR not spotfacing/counter boring the center bolt hole deep enough to not require grinding a washer into a triangle to fit the hole. .060"-.090" deeper is all that is required. Hope they fixed that on the new heads. If Tony says the plug angles are required for performance, I can live with that. But the center bolt hole counterbore should be a no brainer.

I also think the shorty plugs should be described better in Summit. How do you know what you are buying?

And Gosfast: I "dimpled" my headers with a 'c' clamp, a block of wood, and 1 3/4" socket. I don't think you would even notice they have been modified. If your guy used a ball peen hammer, that is not the fault of the head designer. If he was unable to do the job right himself, he should have taken it to someone that could bend the headers neatly. A lot of car building is just 'knowing how'.
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  #13  
Old Nov 27th, 06, 12:58 PM
cody cody is offline
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Default Re: CNC Porting-AFR, Brodix, Dart, Edelbrock, etc.

This looks like another attempt by Gary from NY to slander the aftermarket head companies. Time after time, we have seen Gary jump at the chance to discredit AFR among some of the other brands. Its obvious he has some kind of bone to pick, and this latest attempt is just as weak as the previous attempts. Just give it up Gary, its okay.
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Old Nov 27th, 06, 1:49 PM
71rat408 71rat408 is offline
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Talking Re: CNC Porting-AFR, Brodix, Dart, Edelbrock, etc.

Not to get sidetracked, but does anyone else get images of Dr. Evil doing the bunny ear quotes whenever Gosfast posts?
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Old Nov 27th, 06, 2:08 PM
GOSFAST GOSFAST is offline
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Default Re: CNC Porting-AFR, Brodix, Dart, Edelbrock, etc.

[QUOTE=Wolfplace;1130138]=
The post your are referring to is talking about cylinder heads you are not going to touch for less than $5-$10,000 in some cases.

Hi Mike, this is off the issue for a moment, but I pulled this out of your response to clear up THE major "beef" I had with the heads my customer chose. If you follow this closely you can do the math, it's not that complicated!

Customer purchases heads from AFR after discussing the overall combo with them, it's all their recommendations. Purchase price, 3200.00 with freight. Now follow me here,

AFR 335's, CNC'd, 121 CC chamber's (actually 117), 1.550" Manley Nex-Tec's, steel retainer option. 275# closed/750# open, ALL as per AFR recommend!

Now I get the heads to do. I simply refuse to go with "steel's" and 1.550's.
Customer calls AFR, they talk him into staying the course with the 1.550's BUT, will not take back the "steels" (no credit option offered for the return of them) towards the purchase of the "Titanums". So he purchases the retainers from me, add 140.00 here plus 40.00 for spring install, and I'm still against the setup, but I go forward.

Let me shorten it here, get the unit on the dyno, "struggles" to get to 6500 RPM. I tell customer the INTAKE and the CARB is no-good for this unit, mind you, it's not breaking up, it just wont rev! This is where the 680 HP number came from, customer took unit and left. A week goes by, he called AFR, Tony specifically, and gave them the results. He explaind to them what I told him, the 7521 Weiand and the 850 (1030 CFM) carb was NO GOOD HERE, on this unit, but guess what? AFR tells him the springs are the "culprit", the very same springs they sold him from the start, from "day-1"! Gimme a break, huh!

Okay, add another 575.00 or so (to AFR's bank account) for the "new" 1.625's (remember what I said when he first brought me the heads?) AND another set of Titaniums for the same 1.625's. I explained to my customer this is considered "unarmed-robbery" in my shop!

You do the math I lost count. Must be close to $4000.00 with the freight. Thanks, Gary in N.Y.

P.S. The spring/retainer upgrade did "NOTHING" to the HP number. HE STILL HAS 680 HP and on top of it all he has to "scrap" his fairly new (2 years old)headers and visit George (Kooks) and get some more new headers. AND the unit is STILL "lazy"! Lesson learned for my customer: PAY ATTENTION TO YOUR ENGINE BUILDER!

Double P.S. This was my entire "beef" with the AFR heads. Was really more "policy" than a "bad" product! They were/are the wrong heads "from the box" for his unit. Remember for $3000.00 (or thereabouts) I could have given him the identical HP numbers with another brand of heads. He knows he's down 60 or better, but, not necessarily from his heads. With the solid roller setup he's using we're above the 800 HP number easily! Hyd. retro's are still in the 750 range, under 10:1, and with NO PORTING charges OR CNC options!
One more item, in fairness to AFR, this is a bit important, you have to remember you're raising the exhaust ports some 3/8" or better with almost ALL aftermarket Alunimum heads. That must be factored in to the header scenario. If you remove "irons" or in this case "Edelbrocks" you MAY have pipe issues!
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